DUST Search - Think of tanks like this...

Void Echo wrote:

yeah, I know you don't use it, im just using that as an example for most of the people that come to the forums complaining about not being able to solo us with militia gear. sorry if that offended you in any way.... but you are in the wrong if you want us to submit to being soloed by anyone.

-I must admit, i WAS trying to solo the tank. Because i was playing solo and my team was just getting massacred by the tank. I there by used STRATEGY (there by the Ambush i plannedfor the tank) and i think Strategy should always prevail,over everything.No it not offended my,i thought YOU thought i was trying to solo a tank with MLT gear.no harm done.

well... considering that it takes over 10x more SP and ISK for us to deploy tanks on the field than you need for fitting your dropsuits... yeah I do believe we earn the privilege of being able to survive alone (notice for once you idiot that im saying survive and not dominate you blind bastard)... that being said, the investment we make towards HAVs is far grater than your investment into infantry stuff along with how hard it is to stay alive at all during any given moment when we are piloting gives you the idea that this class should have the survival advantage over any other class that tries to go solo.

So you are saying Players with More SP and more ISK deserve to have a natural advantage over low level players? more than they have already?:''considering that it takes over 10x more SP and ISK for us to deploy tanks on the field than you need for fitting your dropsuits... yeah I do believe we earn the privilege of being able to survive alone''

This is what i understand by this statement.Consider this,if after 15 million the best way to survive SOLO is a tank...dont you think it will become the NEW FOTM?
So basically, If players are high SP and they want to play solo,the best way is tanking then. ok good to know void...I actually thought for a second this was going to be a TEAM BASED GAME where WITHOUT A TEAM you are F***d.
but ok. Thanks for the civil response BTW...


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KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1766	Posted - 2013.10.15 00:28:00 - [1] - Quote ''Um... no. Show me ANY real life parallel to this argument and I'll agree. The point of a vehicle, and thus the enormous amount of SP and ISK spent to gain use of and continue to use a vehicle, is to gain an ADVANTAGE.'' The point of AV is to have a counter against that advantage , without the enormous cost. :3 I see where the OP is coming from.He does have a point. But at the same time me running with Swarms + SIX KIN SMG makes me useful vs infantry AND vehicles alike, im just sacrificing AI range. Also people who main Plasma cannons+AV grenade+sidearm can damage everything in the game.... So meh. I wont discuss, i'll wait till vehicle/AV fix is here to rant again in the neverending vehicle vs AV war...
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1773	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:21:00 - [2] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: ''Um... no. Show me ANY real life parallel to this argument and I'll agree. The point of a vehicle, and thus the enormous amount of SP and ISK spent to gain use of and continue to use a vehicle, is to gain an ADVANTAGE.'' The point of AV is to have a counter against that advantage , without the enormous cost. :3 I see where the OP is coming from.He does have a point. But at the same time me running with Swarms + SIX KIN SMG makes me useful vs infantry AND vehicles alike, im just sacrificing AI range. Also people who main Plasma cannons+AV grenade+sidearm can damage everything in the game.... So meh. I wont discuss, i'll wait till vehicle/AV fix is here to rant again in the neverending vehicle vs AV war... Nice crutchlauncher But King you know swarms are broken as hell. Double DPS in prep for vehicle rebalance that never came.... now just double DPS, autolocking crutch launchers as Spkr says. IT IS TRUE, however; Armor repairers are broken as hell too,and i dont see tankers complaining about them. Broken vs Broken = weird balance. I mean if a tank can take 6 of MY Swarms , plus 4 proximity mines plus 2 packedgrenades in less than 30 secs.... see where im going? But this aspect of the game is OVERALL f***d up, no need to start fighting over this again,lets just leave it as it needs a fix.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1775	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:37:00 - [3] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: The only reason why armor repairers are still broken is because they are the only thing that keeps them alive, so invalid argument. Anyways, that's about (assuming PROTO swarms) ~25k damage, so I think you're lying. Im sorry i have no reason to lie: i use ADV Swarms with prof 4 and 2 Cx Damage mods. Im not lying. I even have the name of the tanker written around, he played for Dark Legion. -Shot 1 volley of Swarms to scare him, -As he got into the ''city'' are for cover (ambush i planed) he ate the 4 STD Prox mines while i reloaded. -He decided to stop there and shoot at me, i responded with 3 STD ADV packed AV nades, 2 hit; 1 missed -He decided he was low on HP and started moving (Exceedingly fast if i may..) -I , while he was repairing armor shot him 3 more volleys -He obviously outran me while i reloaded again and turned around in a corner where the ''fantastic'' feature tankers love about swarms kicked in and the next two volleys made a 90 degree turn avoiding walls and i got hit markers again. He survived and fled. A vein in my head popped.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1775	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:40:00 - [4] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Godin is right. If they weren't working like they are now. Tanking would be dead, I wouldn't be doing it and you'd never see tanks on the field, and you would have created CoD in space, not an attack at you personally. Tanking is barely viable now, let alone with Reppers that doing keep you repped.... I mean reppers also barely work now tbh. Well if a tank takes that kind of punishment i think is FAIR for him to die, considering he killed me 6 times in a row with only 2 shots hit.... -6 swarms (AV missiles designed to be EFFECTIVE VS VEHICLES) -2 PACKED grenades -4 Prox Mines I mean what do tankers think is fair as for punishment their vehicles can take?
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1775	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:41:00 - [5] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Okay, so ~21k damage. Still not buying it. Im not trying to convince you, your opinion is irrerelevant to me.You are a biased tanker
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1775	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:43:00 - [6] - Quote Void Echo wrote: its called hardeners and reps.... and your swarm skill not being high enough. it normally takes about 3 volleys for someone to take down an average tanker if hes alone, it only takes one volley if there are multiple swarmers present... teamwork and skill level are how your meant to kill us, not solo tactics with militia gear Not being high enough? I have Prof 4 and 2 CX damage mods. I dont use MLT gear and you know it. ''teamwork and skill level are how your meant to kill us'' But for tankers to run solo is fair right?.... Heh i know where this is going.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1775	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:47:00 - [7] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Super powerful armour reppers are all that's keeping tankers in business, saving those canny shield tankers I hate so much. AHA.so THEY ARE in business... They dont get 1 shotted as (not you adamance) some tankers claim by AV. Case rest. Im off for a cig ...
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1777	Posted - 2013.10.15 01:55:00 - [8] - Quote Void Echo wrote: yeah, I know you don't use it, im just using that as an example for most of the people that come to the forums complaining about not being able to solo us with militia gear. sorry if that offended you in any way.... but you are in the wrong if you want us to submit to being soloed by anyone. -I must admit, i WAS trying to solo the tank. Because i was playing solo and my team was just getting massacred by the tank. I there by used STRATEGY (there by the Ambush i plannedfor the tank) and i think Strategy should always prevail,over everything.No it not offended my,i thought YOU thought i was trying to solo a tank with MLT gear.no harm done. well... considering that it takes over 10x more SP and ISK for us to deploy tanks on the field than you need for fitting your dropsuits... yeah I do believe we earn the privilege of being able to survive alone (notice for once you idiot that im saying survive and not dominate you blind bastard)... that being said, the investment we make towards HAVs is far grater than your investment into infantry stuff along with how hard it is to stay alive at all during any given moment when we are piloting gives you the idea that this class should have the survival advantage over any other class that tries to go solo. So you are saying Players with More SP and more ISK deserve to have a natural advantage over low level players? more than they have already?:''considering that it takes over 10x more SP and ISK for us to deploy tanks on the field than you need for fitting your dropsuits... yeah I do believe we earn the privilege of being able to survive alone'' This is what i understand by this statement.Consider this,if after 15 million the best way to survive SOLO is a tank...dont you think it will become the NEW FOTM? So basically, If players are high SP and they want to play solo,the best way is tanking then. ok good to know void...I actually thought for a second this was going to be a TEAM BASED GAME where WITHOUT A TEAM you are F***d. but ok. Thanks for the civil response BTW...
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1779	Posted - 2013.10.15 02:19:00 - [9] - Quote Void Echo wrote: 1-it would be awesome if more people skilled into tanks, I would have tons more fun battling other tankers than I do now because of you AVers getting in the way of trying to have fun here.. I say let more people skill into tanks, should revive the game for more aged tankers like myself. 2-in my truly honest opinion about all the classes in the game, the more of a personal investment you make in a certain class SP wise should grant you the right and privilege to outperform all other players in other classes and your own that have not put as much personal investment in their own classes as you have done for yours... 3-ex: a 17 Mil total SP tanker (myself) should definitely out perform a single av guy with less than 5 mil SP in AV mainly because... well I put much more time and investment into tanks than hes done for AV... 3-ex 2: a 6 mil SP sniper should out perform a 2 mil SP AR mainly because the sniper put more time and investment into sniping than the AR user did for his own class. get it yet? 4-in all of human history including new eden, personal investment and time put in have always come out on top and out performed everyone and everything that has not done the same ore similar.... those that do are called competitors and the human life span drives off this basic survival instinct, to out perform the competitors and everyone else in order to survive. 1-Again beinga little selfish here aint ya' .What about us Infantry trying to have fun vs other infantry instead of having to worry about tanks? Biased thought is biased. 2-So basically,if i run proto gear i shoudlnt be able to get killed by MLT/STD gear at all.By your reasoning..hmm..Proto suits / weapons / gear might be UNDERPOWERED then... 3-I get it. But what you are saying is RPG / MMORP thought. This is a FPS,balance means that with skill, you can take out another player REGARDLESS of time invested in the game. If gear/time invested is always going to tryumph over skill, its not balance. 4- same as 3. @ adamance ''1-Yes Tank users should have a natural advantage over infantry, its the purpose for deploying a tank. 2-E.G- Take 2 500k SP toons. One pays 300K for his MLT tank, one uses a free MLT fit. Why does the AV have a natural advantage over the Tanker when they spent no ISK or SP to achieve that?'' 1- So should AV then have a natural advantage over vehicles,since its designed for that purpose. 2-Because its designed to take out tanks.Same as a MLT tank can kill any PROTO if he is not carrying AV weaponry.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1780	Posted - 2013.10.15 02:46:00 - [10] - Quote @ Void Echo 1-aren't you being a bit selfish by wanting tankers to be on the same level as dropsuits? I mean come on... tanks are 50 ton vehicles more than twice the size of infantry, if I don't have fun in the class I wanted to play as, why does that class even exist? plus... if you want an infantry only game, there is call of duty, if CCP didn't want vehicles to be deployed in matches, they wouldv never put them in the game. 2-I don't mainly play as infantry but I have several million SP I put into gallente assault, so yeah Id say that stats are wrong on the basics, the weapons, the dropsits... almost everything in this game needs to be reworked imo. 3-this isn't purely an FPS game, I hope you do realize that, as long as there is a skill system set up to train your character for specific roles instead of just mindless shooting and leveling up in general, then the game isn't purely an FPS. this game allow people to skill up their characters into specific roles and classes, that's RPGing, if you want a game that jut levels you up in general, again its called call of duty. 4- if the natural advantage basically makes the opposing class null and practically non-existent or non-usable at all, then there is no balance.... 5- that person doesn't have nearly as much SP as I do halfway, he should never be on the level needed to fight me if doesn't put investment into his class like I did mine. 1-I dont want tankers to be at the same level as dropsuits. I want tankers to stop stomping on pub matches SOLO ,since the blue dots cant play together,they dont know any better. I want a Good AV player to be able to hold back 1 Good tanker and get WP for it,even if it doesnt mean destroying the tank.At the end of the day,regarless of play style, is 1 player vs another player. 2-we agree on something for a change. 3-Well it isnt purely a MMORPG either,i hope you realize that. CCP IS SELLING DUST as an FPS , with some RPG elements. They are not selling it as it is world of tanks not twisted metal. Balance is needed for a FPS to be sucessful. I dont like CoD, my first FPS was MAG.I like difficulty. BUT in this kind of games, more time invested + SP means a SLIGHT advantage over your enemy,if both have equal skill. Doesnt mean a 20mill player with little skill must win over a skilled player with 5 mill only because he has more skillpoints. THIS kills games same as pay to win... 4-The problem is,regardless of what tankers say, me and MANY more people just see tanks owning in the battlefield. You say AV is OP and takes down tanks instantly, and 1 player can solo a tank, but we just DONT see it. we agree as in the 2nd point,it needs rework. 5-The problem is, They are being put in THE SAME MATCH AS YOU. whats the point of putting a player of 5mill vs another team with only 15mill+ players if he cant do anything about it? While games mix players of different SP levels, everybody must have a chance to drop everybody. ITS FAIR. @ Adamace (wow im getting a beating here from tankers ..) 1-Yes but you have not put any effort or risk into using that fit, that is why AV is easy mode. I care not for balance, only the amount of effort someone has put into something. 2-Effort you never have to put in while Aving. If you put in 12m Sp into destroying tanks I would have no problem, you haven't put the same amount of effort in as a tanker has, thus solo you should never be able to beat them. 1-Effort? yeap. I'm missing on fun infatry vs infatry kills in order to spend a whole game hunting a tank,sometimes not even killing it,always not getting WP for pushing it back. Also, you care not for balance adamance, then why should WE AV infantry care for balance then...? You dont care for balance, and Void wants to get in a Pub match and unless we hace 3+ PROTO AV specialist working together,he want to be indestructible... I mean, lol. The amount of effor will and SHOULD never be more powerful than SKILL, NEVER. SKILL > ALL 2-In this case, SP needed for tanks must be level to Infantry level, so that being a specialized AVer (with all things into consideration,dropsuit,weapon,sidearm,equipment,moddules,etc...) matches being a specialized tanker.

KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1780	Posted - 2013.10.15 02:57:00 - [11] - Quote True Adamance wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: @ Void Echo @ Adamace (wow im getting a beating here from tankers ..) 1-Yes but you have not put any effort or risk into using that fit, that is why AV is easy mode. I care not for balance, only the amount of effort someone has put into something. 2-Effort you never have to put in while Aving. If you put in 12m Sp into destroying tanks I would have no problem, you haven't put the same amount of effort in as a tanker has, thus solo you should never be able to beat them. 1-Effort? yeap. I'm missing on fun infatry vs infatry kills in order to spend a whole game hunting a tank,sometimes not even killing it,always not getting WP for pushing it back. Also, you care not for balance adamance, then why should WE AV infantry care for balance then...? You dont care for balance, and Void wants to get in a Pub match and unless we hace 3+ PROTO AV specialist working together,he want to be indestructible... I mean, lol. The amount of effor will and SHOULD never be more powerful than SKILL, NEVER. SKILL > ALL 2-In this case, SP needed for tanks must be level to Infantry level, so that being a specialized AVer (with all things into consideration,dropsuit,weapon,sidearm,equipment,moddules,etc...) matches being a specialized tanker. Fair points, my last comment was a little too hastily said, I'm sorry. If you are keeping the tank on the run then be satisfied with not taking it down and keeping him from the fight. Void might be able to continue.... but I feel I lost this round against you King. Good win. I shall be back to argue with you later! See you later. Looking foward of being your gunner soon.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1781	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:09:00 - [12] - Quote Void Echo wrote: how many ***** times do I have to say this? 1-I don't invulnerability, that would be boring, I want survivability.... 2-its NOT my fault that your bluetarded teammates wont bring out any AV when an enemy tank is rolling around, you shouldn't be blaming the tanker for that, you should be blaming 80% of the infantry that play this game. 1-AHHA sorry ,i know what you mean. But still, 100% survivability vs 1 AV = invulnerability .... doesnt it?** 2-I know its not your fault. BUT, if you can solo in a pub match,so should an AV infantry be able to push you back solo and (even if not destroying you) get some WP for doig so. If not, it comes down to Tankers stomping in pub matches without a counter unless a full squad gets in at the same time. I know PC is one of the selling poins of DUST, but as it is, PUB MATCHES compose 99% of our games, and Tanks own Pub matches.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1781	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:14:00 - [13] - Quote Just destroying turrets a Tanker can do 800-1000 Wp in less than 2 minutes. Just saying....
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1781	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:17:00 - [14] - Quote Void Echo wrote: 1-ok on that part im not disagreeing with you on this BUT, the AV should be able to solo a tanker ONLY if hes on the same tier level as the tanker: adv v adv, std vs std, proto vs proto... granted proto should be able to destroy several tanks with average effort put in. 2-if you don't want tanks to own in pubs (im assuming you mean ambush because I can only dominate in a tank with a tanker squad in skirmish) then get your teammates to bring in AV. 3-theres no way we are going to allow a single AV guy to kill off a fully decked tanker who knows wtf hes doing. 1-WOW we agreed on something else. COOl. 2-That is true, but remember not everyone plays together. I mean you are forcing ME to play with a TEAM in order to be able to counter Tanks but tankers are not being forced into bringing an ANTI AV team to support them. 3 to take down 1,its just not how it works. 3-Im not sayingthis should be like this,im saying a SINGLE AV with good AV weaponry should AT LEAST be able to push back occationally a tank and be Payed WP for it.As it is, an AV specialist ONLY gets points if he destroys the enemy vehicle. If vehicles get buffs and increased survivability, then how in earth are AVers going to make a living? ''ts called tank vs instillation... one is a mobile large turret with repps, hardeners and more while the other is a stationary turret that only has the ability to shoot... which do you think will win'' Im not saying you SHOULDNT win, just saying tankers can do a lot of WP if thats what the tanker wants. Thats all.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1781	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:30:00 - [15] - Quote Void Echo wrote: even more of the better AVers agree with tankers that tanks should be buffed.. look around, youl see AVers complaining that they are bored with how easy it is to kill us.. Oh so i've never said that tanks need a buff? YES I HAVE. This are my points overall: 1--Tanks need buff 2--AVers need to NOT be able to kill a tank of hiher level SOLO BUT; be able to make a profit pushing it back in occations. 3--I know you dont care about your enemy specialization earning WP, but i do care about WP gain for tanks,as for in search for balance,both sides must be able to make a profit. 4--Armor tanks are by no means UNDERPOWERED.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1781	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:37:00 - [16] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Okay, so ~21k damage. Still not buying it. Im not trying to convince you, your opinion is irrerelevant to me.You are a biased tanker I kill HAV's with my Wiki swarms on a daily basis. As a mater of fact, I just smashed 3 HAV's (one barely escaped) just 15 minutes ago in a PC. I also do Scout shotty/sniper. Lastly, I fly DS's, and drive LAV's as well, so I do a lot more than just drive HAV's. Come at me. I didnt ask any of that , because i dont care.byes
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1782	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:40:00 - [17] - Quote Void Echo wrote: 4. actually they are only average if not op against shield tanks, gunnlogi and sicas... everything has explosive bonus damage against armor so that makes armor more disadvantaged against AV than shield tanks are. so in other words, You are admitting they are not UP, just not as good as they should be: +1
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1782	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:45:00 - [18] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: That just tells me you're doing it wrong by trying to solo a tanker. Same goes for tankers trying to solo enemy teams with proto AVers....
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1782	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:47:00 - [19] - Quote Void Echo wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Void Echo wrote: 4. actually they are only average if not op against shield tanks, gunnlogi and sicas... everything has explosive bonus damage against armor so that makes armor more disadvantaged against AV than shield tanks are. so in other words, You are admitting they are not UP, just not as good as they should be: +1 there are some situations... tank v tank: armor has the advantage over shield, been that way for a while now and shield need to be buffed to be on par so they are at least viable for tank combat. AV v tank: armor is at a big disadvantage because everything has explosive damage bonuses against armor, shield doesn't suffer this disadvantage. But they are NOT UP because they are good vs shield tanks, Insta kill infantry (im exagerating of course) and with broken armor reps, they survive fights. I agree they are not as good as they should be. But i insist , they are not UP as many claim. In the correct situation, a 6k Maddy can be unkillable... Thats all im saying.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1782	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:53:00 - [20] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: KING CHECKMATE wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Okay, so ~21k damage. Still not buying it. Im not trying to convince you, your opinion is irrerelevant to me.You are a biased tanker I kill HAV's with my Wiki swarms on a daily basis. As a mater of fact, I just smashed 3 HAV's (one barely escaped) just 15 minutes ago in a PC. I also do Scout shotty/sniper. Lastly, I fly DS's, and drive LAV's as well, so I do a lot more than just drive HAV's. Come at me. You didnt smash 3 tanks by yourself, LIAR. And as you told ME: I dont believe you I didnt ask any of that , because i dont care.byes Ask anyone in my corp online. Blew up three, ran out of ammo before I could kill the last (damn nanohives running out....) and got killed by a 'construct' HMG, in which I got confused because construct is Caldari Constructions, but the HMG is a Matari weapon. As you said, I do HAV's, so I know how they move, and know their weaknesses. Don't underestimate me. 1-Yeah like your corp WOULDNT lie for you. 2-Even if you are some Incredible GENIUS AVer, it doesnt mean Tanks are paper thin.just the tankers were not as good or lacked support. I bet that if True Adamance+Void Echo+TheLegend were in a match vs you,you wouldnt be able to drop a single one of them solo.... 3-im trying to reach an agreement here with the tankers, you are just trying to provoque me,and will fail.Im in too good of a mood today bro.

KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1782	Posted - 2013.10.15 03:54:00 - [21] - Quote Void Echo wrote: question... are you focusing on AV v tanks or tank v tank? because theres a difference between stances on both those topics. Infantry AV vs Armor tank is basically what most of the time im talking about. I know DS and shield tanks are utter crap and need a serious buff.
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1782	Posted - 2013.10.15 04:00:00 - [22] - Quote Void Echo wrote: oh, armor has a big disadvantage, mainly because of the damage bonus towards armor that everything has. It gets slightly compensated by the broken Rep modules.I agree without them maddys would be in the same situation as shield tanks ''that's why your in such a rational mood today'' That and the fact that (Godin was right) im not drunk, you see, i work in ... a place where i can drink while working....My line of work permits it. But i got in a fight and i cant for at least 2 weeks , so im sober and i dont get pissed off easily there by dont end up talking without thinking...
KING CHECKMATE AMARR IMPERIAL CRUSADERS 1782	Posted - 2013.10.15 04:06:00 - [23] - Quote Void Echo wrote: for once, we have agreed on balance for something.... I think hell is going to freeze over tomorrow Maybe today.heh... Well, i leave in peace. Good talk.