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[Feedback] Time-To-Kill (TTK) is still much too short. Fix it.

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Bethhy Ancient Exiles 216	Posted - 2013.10.27 05:56:00 - [1] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: This became a huge thing when 1.4 launched, and it's killed a lot of the satisfaction in the game for a significant chunk of the player-base. The assumption when 1.4 launched is that is was all because of aim-assist (remember all those threads), yet there was also a matter where hit-detection of various weapons had improved in tandem. This was something you (CCP) said you'd be watching. I hope you've seen by now how laughably short someone's life is under the gun of even a MLT-grade quality. What do you think makes Dust unique in comparison to something like Halo or Quake? You would think the fact that character advancement allows you to customize your suit would be a large factor, no? Take a look at this Halo video. From the point at which the video starts, you can see it takes him a couple direct volleys with his rifle to drop/kill his opponent. It's about 6 seconds or so, and his aim is pretty good. Halo is a deathmatch sort of game where your suits are not custom and the battles are meant to be frantic and short. Compare that to Dust 514 in 1.4. (this is from CEOPyrex's video) Aside from the fact that his aim was all over the place and he was barely hitting him, it's even quicker to kill people in Dust, a game where you can fit armor/shield modules and be customized after MONTHS of play. The fact you can drop people super-quick now isn't a newsflash; it's been all over the forums since 1.4 dropped. I've heard a few suggestions for fixes, but perhaps removing the 10% across the board damage increase you gave with all the hit-detection issues at launch would be a good start. Please fix this. Fittings, skills, etc. are supposed to matter. Right now you've rendered 90% of skills pointless as a Frontline Starter with a MLT rifle and Zero SP invested can drop just about anyone faster than those guys in Halo, etc. If you want your game to be something different, then realize shooting for faster/more-death-laden gameplay than a Halo, etc. game is not the direction you want to be heading. Agreed, I can barely shield people while I revive them anymore, remove 10% buff. there was no magical 10% buff? please people learn history... it will set you free in almost anything in life. 10% damage was introduced after they removed weaponry bonus's of 2% damage per level. And made it a skill sink skill where lvl 2 and 4 do absolutely nothing. but **** people off being the first skill you have to get and it already being a skill point sink. no magical 10% damage showed up to anything. And hit detection is worse then it has ever been.... TTK in beta was no different... you died just as fast... we still loved it... But when you did die it was to a predictable shot or something that took more then 1 shot(thales/charge excluded) Now you get one shot naded by a militia grenade... let alone a core locus... the grenade 1 shot kill spam's is hilarious... Forge gun 1 shot kill deaths everywhere... Mass drivers 1-2 shotting every low health point suit with almost impossible to miss splash radius's... CCP has installed Aim-bot and these one shot kill weapons to compress skill gap's in the game... It has to do with eliminating a players ability to play a perfect game with skill... Allowing a random element to always one shot kill you... no matter how good the positioning or ability is. CCP made these choices and personally its why a majority of people i know will never touch this game again. Catering to casual's in that sort of way is unforgivable for most... and it's truely sad.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 227	Posted - 2013.10.28 17:32:00 - [2] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Bethhy wrote: there was no magical 10% buff? please people learn history... it will set you free in almost anything in life. ... no magical 10% damage showed up to anything. And hit detection is worse then it has ever been.... No one is suggesting anything "magical" happened. I cite the exact dev posts referencing the buff here. History is great, but you need to work on finishing a page before you teach it. If the dev's are thinking everyone getting the 10% DAMAGE WE ALREADY HAD... has created a TTk issue? just go back and watch any Beta gameplay vid... because that simply isnt true. And if they are basing the TTK from uprising launch? where they lost over half their active population in one patch... They need to go back to beta where everyone still lives... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZI6msPfY7Y And incase you wonder why we vet's love the old beta concept... The game was just cooler then... Even the graphix where 100 times better looking IMO. They have made it cartoony and lost that "DUST" element [u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnLOT4ljptM/u] Specifically said by you Zeylon Rho wrote: So, we have a damage bonus that was in part a reaction to an outcry of players reacting to changes in what they were familiar with, but it was actually a combined issue with: less range, aiming/control, hit-detection/rendering, and fall-off damage issues. So, if we're at a point where these other issue have been fixed; it's time for the crutch TO GO! There was no bonus... it has always existed in DUST... no magical 10% damage came out of thin air...everyone already had it.. Except Weaponry actually was worth getting not a skill that does absolutely nothing... AA is the elephant in the room... MAG never had any AA...two newberry's meet each other with AA and it ends quick... lol. Hit detection is messed still, and everyone thinking its to good that's why we are dieing so fast... is ... welll
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 227	Posted - 2013.10.28 18:09:00 - [3] - Quote Borne Velvalor wrote: Bethhy wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: This became a huge thing when 1.4 launched, and it's killed a lot of the satisfaction in the game for a significant chunk of the player-base. The assumption when 1.4 launched is that is was all because of aim-assist (remember all those threads), yet there was also a matter where hit-detection of various weapons had improved in tandem. This was something you (CCP) said you'd be watching. I hope you've seen by now how laughably short someone's life is under the gun of even a MLT-grade quality. What do you think makes Dust unique in comparison to something like Halo or Quake? You would think the fact that character advancement allows you to customize your suit would be a large factor, no? Take a look at this Halo video. From the point at which the video starts, you can see it takes him a couple direct volleys with his rifle to drop/kill his opponent. It's about 6 seconds or so, and his aim is pretty good. Halo is a deathmatch sort of game where your suits are not custom and the battles are meant to be frantic and short. Compare that to Dust 514 in 1.4. (this is from CEOPyrex's video) Aside from the fact that his aim was all over the place and he was barely hitting him, it's even quicker to kill people in Dust, a game where you can fit armor/shield modules and be customized after MONTHS of play. The fact you can drop people super-quick now isn't a newsflash; it's been all over the forums since 1.4 dropped. I've heard a few suggestions for fixes, but perhaps removing the 10% across the board damage increase you gave with all the hit-detection issues at launch would be a good start. Please fix this. Fittings, skills, etc. are supposed to matter. Right now you've rendered 90% of skills pointless as a Frontline Starter with a MLT rifle and Zero SP invested can drop just about anyone faster than those guys in Halo, etc. If you want your game to be something different, then realize shooting for faster/more-death-laden gameplay than a Halo, etc. game is not the direction you want to be heading. Agreed, I can barely shield people while I revive them anymore, remove 10% buff. there was no magical 10% buff? please people learn history... it will set you free in almost anything in life. 10% damage was introduced after they removed the weaponry skill bonus of 2% damage per level. And made it a skill sink skill where lvl 2 and 4 do absolutely nothing. but **** people off being the first skill you have to get and it already being a skill point sink. no magical 10% damage showed up to anything. And hit detection is worse then it has ever been.... TTK in beta was no different... you died just as fast... we still loved it... But when you did die it was to a predictable shot or something that took more then 1 shot(thales/charge excluded) Now you get one shot naded by a militia grenade... let alone a core locus... the grenade 1 shot kill spam's is hilarious... Forge gun 1 shot kill deaths everywhere... Mass drivers 1-2 shotting every low health point suit with almost impossible to miss splash radius's... CCP has installed Aim-bot and these one shot kill weapons to compress skill gap's in the game... It has to do with eliminating a players ability to play a perfect game with skill... Allowing a random element to always one shot kill you... no matter how good the positioning or ability is. CCP made these choices and personally its why a majority of people i know will never touch this game again. Catering to casual's in that sort of way is unforgivable for most... and it's truely sad. I agree with the one shot kills. It's game design 101. For a death to not be frustrating, the player must understand why they died and how they could've avoided it. If you die because the other guy had more aim or because you let them get behind you, then it's understandable and not very frustrating. When you get OHKO by a Thale hundreds of meters away that isn't rendered, can't be scanned and can't be killed by you? 1-2HKO weapons negate the opposing player's skill by allowing a skilled player to kill them (Tactical Snipers can Double Tap you; I die to more of these than Thales) before they can reasonably react. It's supposed to be a scale and CCP places a 100kg weight on one side. At the same time, with the normal variant's slow fire rate, if the bullet does low damage then the Sniper can basically never kill anyone, which is unfair to snipers. I hate Sniper Rifles in most games. It's harder to balance in Dust 514 because the maps are huge with many towers and hills and there isn't a lot of cover on the ground. Unlike, say, Killzone, where a skilled Assault Rifle user can kill the average Sniper with good aim, Sniper Rifles have hundreds of meters in range advantage. Even if you see a sniper, unless you also have a sniper rifle, you can't do anything about him. Forges are even worse game design because they OHKO you NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE WEARING. In fact, fully tanked PRO suits can be easier to OHKO than standard suits because they often move a little slower due to armor plates. Heavies are hilariously easy to one shot with Forge guns. Several times I've seen the enemy team has a lot of Heavies, so I swap to Militia Forge + Basic Heavy Frame and sit on a tower. Hold button, slowly sweep over area, let go as soon as reticule goes red. OHKO. 17/2. Forge Guns are a problem because they have a TTK of 0 seconds. No one can react to that. Snipers are fine... Working as intended.. A skilled thales sniper will oneshot any suit almost 80% of the time.. because they really only hit headhot's or miss. The snipers who shoot to just hit.. are not really snipers.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 230	Posted - 2013.10.28 19:41:00 - [4] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Bethhy wrote: And if they are basing the TTK from uprising launch? where they lost over half their active population in one patch... They need to go back to beta where everyone still lives... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZI6msPfY7Y And incase you wonder why we vet's love the old beta concept... The game was just cooler then... Even the graphix where 100 times better looking IMO. They have made it cartoony and lost that "DUST" element [u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnLOT4ljptM/u] (Do you really think DUST gameplay has done anything in the 1 year since that worth note?) From the first video, the TTK was also too short then. If you thought it was better then, you're part of the problem. TTK there is still much shorter than a game like Halo or CoD where you can't actually choose to fit shields/armor. We don't need CoD in space, and skills are made pointless by the fact they don't matter. Seriously? because ask any person considered to be competitive top 100 gun gamer's... And the TTk in beta was awesome.. everything about the gun game in beta was awesome... Most of us are still here today because we got addicted to this game in beta... And everytime we log on it makes us sad at what DUST has become from people who just don't know much...understand the history or that it even has repeated itself like 10 times already.... but those people cough have a giant opinion... Just go back and do the research... we had suit's that where half the health point values and guns that did just as much damage... but gun game was at an all time high... Even hit detection is no different.. So let's ask what is the change that made this problem.... Ahhhhh Aim assist... welcome to the giant elephant all you users keep trying to explain away. You can nerf damage and change weapon ranges and do whatever... a computer generated aiming system takes any dualing potential based on players skill a way... and makes this giant TTk issue. when gunning... OHKO weapons aside... shakes fist at CCP
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 230	Posted - 2013.10.28 20:05:00 - [5] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Why do we care what some "top 100" tryhards think? I don't care about their epeen, I want character customization to matter. Right now it doesn't. I have 19 million SP right now and if I suddenly dropped to 12 million, I wouldn't know the difference. I'd just not train the armor, shield and medic skills...all blam, no tank or support. There would be no difference in the game. None. If I wanted a shooter like that I wouldn't be playing Dust, I'd be playing call of duty. We have that game already. We want something different. And this is the problem right here with DUST... and why this game is **** right now... Who gives a ** about character customization? This game's core mechanics are fundamentally broken.... And you care about how you can customize your character... Not to mention a completely invalid argument with skill points... Some people just multi-suit train... But the people who picked one role and are maxing out every skill around that role have significant advantages... and you can see it on the score sheet at the end of every match. this AA has made this game into another CoD replica... AA was introduced into Bf3 to fix poor hit detection around lag issues they tried to fix for a year unsuccessfully. The people who are at the end game of DUST 514.. and the people who inspire up in coming players to get better... are exactly the people's opinion's you should ask... They know the math... they know the history.. they know what happens in the most extreme circumstances in DUST... the competitive aspect... Some players resent tryhard's... which is a natural human response... and why the internet word "scrub" was invented.. But most of the players try to learn off that player and eventually become better. it's about being open minded.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 231	Posted - 2013.10.28 20:39:00 - [6] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: I don't agree with Bethhny, because she's wrong. "Even hit detection is no different" Hit detection is very, very different. Anyone who played 1.3 would know that. It's very clearly not aim assist. I'm a mouse user, I don't even use aim assist. My ARs drop people now just as fast as a viziam with stacked damage mods used to, which was nerfed because it was killing people too quickly. If aim assist was the problem I shouldn't have noticed any difference. Hit detection through uprising has been ****? the recent improvement's have made it no better mostly slightly worse still then beta. That hit detection comment was based on the beta gameplay Youtube links i made... go back and please watch it... will set you free.... Viziam was only glitched on headshot's you could headshot someone with a viziam and deal over 2k damage in 1 second... which was clearly broken... all the other laser rifles where perfect... We loved the diversity in DUST and the range limitations laser's put on AR users. Lasers got a blanket nerf because people didn't know at all about anything just that they where dieing.. and another classic point that people just don't know. And lasers disappeared from the battlefield which was truly sad. Mouse was way better in 1.3 sadlly the movement we had at the end of 1.3 on Mouse was amazing... so smooth and fluid... even with hit detection being horrid the movement made up for it. Now most mouse users are sitting with sensitivity 100 and mouse smoothing on.. which is funny. But the simple fact that hit detection hasn't changed for the better at all compared to beta is 100% true and the consensus... To even make the point more clear we had HALF the health then as we do now. and still TTK wasn't an issue... DUST was the place to go for a shooter with High TTK.. And that is backed up through forum post history you can easily go back and research.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 231	Posted - 2013.10.28 20:55:00 - [7] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: The gun-game in Beta was utter crap, and you showed a video to prove it. I'm not saying this from just the video though; I played pre-launch and it was crap then too. How long do you think it was taking to kill people in that first video you posted? 1 or 2 seconds? Please after this your very amusing. An so little understanding about gun game then. if you leave your head exposed or in a area for a long time a slayer will take it off every time... two Markof22 "dueling" and its a much different video(how dare i have a typo that you took literally..) Did you actually watch how many times a skilled player died with low health values? or did you dismiss that part of the video as "tryhard's" ? everyones top 100 changes a bit... but the big names are usually always present. And if your counter post is about correcting my poor grammar... then you will win every time. i have poor grammar and even poorer spaeeeeeeeelling. TTK's in pub's is nothing... maybe you need to come to PC more... OHKO's and AA is to blame for TTK.... not some 10% damage value that has always existed... No matter how much you tell yourself that, it isn't true.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 231	Posted - 2013.10.28 21:34:00 - [8] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Bethhy wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: The gun-game in Beta was utter crap, and you showed a video to prove it. I'm not saying this from just the video though; I played pre-launch and it was crap then too. How long do you think it was taking to kill people in that first video you posted? 1 or 2 seconds? Please after this your very amusing. An so little understanding about gun game then. if you leave your head exposed or in a area for a long time a slayer will take it off every time... two Markof22 "dueling" and its a much different video(how dare i have a typo that you took literally..) Did you actually watch how many times a skilled player died with low health values? or did you dismiss that part of the video as "tryhard's" ? everyones top 100 changes a bit... but the big names are usually always present. And if your counter post is about correcting my poor grammar... then you will win every time. i have poor grammar and even poorer spaeeeeeeeelling. TTK's in pub's is nothing... maybe you need to come to PC more... OHKO's and AA is to blame for TTK.... not some 10% damage value that has always existed... No matter how much you tell yourself that, it isn't true. It wasn't "a" typo; it was tons of typos. If your posts can't even follow at least some sort of simple high-school level logic, then they'll ultimately all be pointless. You already seem to be assuming that other posters weren't around back in beta, which is a faulty assumption on your part. I started playing within a couple weeks of you. For instance: Quote: TTK's in pub's is nothing... maybe you need to come to PC more... OHKO's and AA is to blame for TTK.... not some 10% damage value that has always existed... No matter how much you tell yourself that, it isn't true. That's not even a sentence. What can we parse from that? 1. TTK in pub's is nothing TTK in pub's what are nothing? 2. Maybe you need to come to PC more Your case for trying to introduce me to the consensus opinion is to tell me to play a mode that's been called broken by many players? 3. OHKO's and AA is to blame for TTK.... not some 10% damage value that has always existed One-hit-Knock-Out's what? That and Aim-Assist are to blame for TTK... being bad? 4. No matter how much you tell yourself that, it isn't true. What isn't true? What am I telling myself? I was observing TTK in that video. TTK isn't the max time the best possible player in the best possible circumstances can live; it's an average. The average time people were living in that video was short. Check it against the average time people live in the Halo video. The end result is that people live longer in Halo (with no system of learning defensive skills) than they do in Dust. I have never used the word "tryhard", but if I did I wouldn't somehow make it into a possessive for no apparent reason. I have no idea what you're talking about with a "top 100". TTK in pubs was all there was in beta (unless you count corp matches), which is what you were using as your example of "good". So, if it's "nothing" in pubs, and it was only good back when PC didn't exist - you seem to have some hardcore logic fail going on. So wait... when someone bounces 5 shots off your head with skill and ability .. and you die... thats because a 10% damage buff? that has always been in the game? TTK's currently in pub's are nothing compared to PC's...and imagine how many skillpoint's and high health point suit's we are rocking... But you are only trying to dilute very clear points. by being a grammar N.azi.. If you simply want to devalue posts based upon grammar and spelling on an international game with an international player base... most with English not even their 3rd or 4th language... then you speak loudly to the person you are. Open the mind please... a militia suit will never have a high TTK versus a proto... and if they stand in the open and try and directly duel a proto they will loose... this was common sense when i started... facing nonstop proto-stomps from Imp's, PFBhz etc...
Bethhy Ancient Exiles 231	Posted - 2013.10.28 22:35:00 - [9] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: It doesn't matter how international the game is. If your ideas aren't communicated on at least a junior high level, then I'll have no idea what you're talking about. The distribution of a game doesn't change how language works. The fact you can't see this speaks loudly to how willfully ignorant or intellectually lazy you choose to be. I've already stated that a 10% damage debuff wouldn't be enough to fix the issues, but you keep coming back around to it anyway. This suggests to me that you can't read. I've also pointed out repeatedly that there are some key issues if a player in Dust lives a shorter amount of time than a player in another game where you can't train skills. The issue there is that the skills and equipment you train to protect yourself can take months of investment, but they leave you surviving for a shorter amount of time than a player in a game that has no need for strategic investment of SP/EXP/whatever. The point is the life of a person that has invested in skills to protect themselves is too short given the time required to achieve those skills. You would expect that the TTK of a tanked person would be longer than a game with no skills, not shorter. This is talking about TTK as an average. Zeylon Rhio Your experiences are not in any way unique, special, or correct. The video you posted was just evidence of the TTK being shorter than Halo/etc. even back in beta. So, I suppose I should thank you for providing additional evidence at how screwed up the TTK is in this game. You keep assuming a player should automatically live longer when he's getting shot in the head repeatedly... and i keep coming around to the 10% buff because u seem to think it came out of thin air and argued that point on 2 separate counter posts to me. No one has to assume your skill... it's well documented and kinda abysmal, 3700 kills and you talk about experience in the game...from Subdreddit? and shooting loads of proto suits... You seriously are the exact example of every person who has a giant opinion with no experience or little to speak of... and are posting on forums. My 5th alt has more kills then you.... by a significant amount. Simple fact is much more credible sources can be quoted all over these forums that gun game and TTk in beta was amazing... And if you continue to argue that it wasn't you only show yourself out. Even the death's that happened in that round against the team that got stomped werent even HALF of what the average death's are now... the hit detection didn't make everyone die a lot... Welcome to the extra deaths from OHKO's and AA, adding to players that never should of got that kill to begin with. Junior highschool? had to google that... is that so the big kids don't pick on the little ones? you could grammar **** 50% of the developer posts in DUST if you really wanted... as most of them don't speak english as their first language either... And no i doubt you where playing in closed beta... Do you even know one of the blackop's tank names without googling it? did you even know black op's tanks existed in the game? There is a reason i had to post a video from a year ago almost to the week. People don't know this game has gone backwards almost for the sake of UI upgrades and a broken PC system.

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