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Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
1209
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Posted - 2013.10.04 18:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Each of the game modes promotes a fundamentally different style of balance.
Snipers are inherently more of a threat in Skirmish or Domination, but in Ambush are much easier to locate and neutralize and are harder to protect, as an example, due to Skirmish having redlines as well as reliable "friendly controlled" spawn points and fortifications and a predictable battlefield.
For HAVs and such, in Skirmish they are much easier to ward off or neutralize due to the abundance of reliable spawn points and supply depots, allowing teams to stay together easier, plan ahead nanohive ambushes, swap fits into AV and then out of when needed, and overall more awareness due to a less chaotic battlefield.
In Ambush an HAV if allowed to deploy will murder almost anything, as it can reliably neutralize the oppositions dropping vehicles before they are properly deployed, and can exploit infantry having to waste an entire life to swap to AV, then fade back allowing the friendly infantry to murder the other AV, rinse and repeat.
There is a reason why in Ambush HAVs can easily go 30+ kills, it's down to a simple matter of luck of spawning first and calling in your vehicle first, and god help the enemy team if you do this with another HAV buddy. In Skirmish we see drastically lower average KDRs for HAVs as well as higher mortality rates (Which promotes the infuriating but largely ineffectual redline sniping HAVs which exploit bad maps like Manus peak).
This is a problem, as people who prefer ambush will understandably see HAVs as a significantly more powerful threat due to the relative inflexibility of infantry swapping fits and maintaining cohesion and maintaining AV fortifications/chokepoints in Ambush. |
Mortedeamor
Internal Rebellion
345
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Posted - 2013.10.04 18:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
1 you do not retaliate to the calling of an UNDERPOWERED tool with a UNDERPOWERED tool..you respond to said underpowered tool with its OVERpowered counter AV and if you do respond with av and said underpowered tool still exists then you should just stop playing dust right now and move onto something more friendly like duck hunt. |
Magnus Amadeuss
DUST University Ivy League
76
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Posted - 2013.10.04 18:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think you are right about the HAV in skirmish/domination/Planetary Conquset/AMbush OMS versus normal ambush.
When you only have 50 clones and no supply depots of course HAVs become extraordinarily powerful. I guess this does leave CCP a choice, balance for ambush or balance for the rest of the modes. |
CLONE117
Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore
392
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Posted - 2013.10.04 18:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
and thats where the assault forge gun comes in! |
Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
1212
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Posted - 2013.10.04 18:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Added this to OP
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:How I would crappily fix it:
All Ambush maps need to take a page out of one of the original maps, Biomass, which is now an outpost. Biomass allows small openings and one largely protected skywalk allowing infantry to cross from one area to the next, exposing them to temporary fire while allowing them a largely safe "playground" to fight each other with minimal vehicle disturbance form both ground and air. Communications all does this in a satisfactory way. This allows vehicles to still "play" while allowing infantry places to breath and simply avoid the HAVs for the most part.
All Skirmish Maps need to remove any and all elevated peaks like Manus peak, as manus peak is a perfect example of a bad map which allows a tank to snipe with impunity, which is impossible to kill unless you drop an OB on it while it is recovering in "hiding." You still need areas where infantry are relatively safe, but you can have a lot more open maps like Line Harvest.
The main problem is in that our radically different gamemodes share the same maps, which is a terrible idea. |
RedZer0 MK1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
63
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Posted - 2013.10.04 18:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
All these problems would be solved with a change in map design. Two clearly defined bases for ambush with a central center local with a CRU and supply depot. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
5627
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Posted - 2013.10.04 19:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
What if I told you that at one time HAV was balanced?
Vehicle oriented roles are so narrow in terms of what you need to put your SP into that it's a no-brainer that someone that puts 100% of their SP into tanks, they're going to be the best damned tanker there is. Tanking has always been a high risk, high reward scenario where you throw your biggest, most expensive asset on the field to turn the tide of a given battle.
The trade off is that their effective counter, AV is less of an SP investment and significantly cheaper. Swarms, forge guns and AV grenades were readily available and like the players in that video I linked, completely ignored them due to a combination of laziness and lack of a tutorial that said "If you don't like getting bodied by this hunk of metal, specialize into this."
Infantry always had the tools they needed to combat tanks, some wised up and started using them while the rest constantly complained until players that played the game properly suffered nerf after nerf. Eventually, piloting became a complete joke thanks to bad design and a horrible decision to ostracize a niche community:
CCP Blam! wrote:Hi all. I've been reading through and we appreciate your feedback.
You're right about the vehicle engineering skill. For the other posters, I'm assuming you mean the vehicle core upgrades skill?
The reason for lowering the overall bonus was to allow us to create a more varied difference in between our different vehicle roles within the same class. This will become more apparent in the future when we release even more roles with different slot layouts. We also want to make sure that new players have a fighting chance against more skill point rich players who can enjoy the benefit of compounding premium module bonuses in the same fitting. We'll be keeping a close eye on how this nets out in vehicle combat, and ensure that we still afford you the ability to create interesting and unique fits to compliment your combat experience.
Best regards, - CCP Blam!
I still remember when I wanted to pilot full-time in Uprising, but was smart enough to play a few matches in MLT gear. After killing a well fitted Madruger with a mass driver, I smartly went into logistics. And guess what? Everyone wants logistics under the nerf hammer too. Thanks to everyone QQing on here, you really know how to make this game fun. |
Tectonic Fusion
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
291
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Posted - 2013.10.04 19:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Let tanks shoot swarm missiles. Of course you tankers need proto tanks, or at least advanced. Make the turrets on the tanks better, because they kinda suck at killing infantry unless the tank is standing still, which is bad for the tank. I personally want a mini blaster turret, that's JUST like what the main turret is like, but just a little weaker so it can't kill tanks, but let the small missile have more of an ability to kill tanks, so it can at least help out more and not be useless for the better tanks. |
Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
1223
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Posted - 2013.10.05 03:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Let tanks shoot swarm missiles. Of course you tankers need proto tanks, or at least advanced. Make the turrets on the tanks better, because they kinda suck at killing infantry unless the tank is standing still, which is bad for the tank. I personally want a mini blaster turret, that's JUST like what the main turret is like, but just a little weaker so it can't kill tanks, but let the small missile have more of an ability to kill tanks, so it can at least help out more and not be useless for the better tanks.
Hmm, swarm turrets do sound spiffy, but in my experience the small missile turrets are pretty good already for helping kill armor tanks.
I would love to see some kind of anti-vehicle homing missile though for turrets |
Godin Thekiller
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
1070
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Posted - 2013.10.05 04:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:Tectonic Fusion wrote:Let tanks shoot swarm missiles. Of course you tankers need proto tanks, or at least advanced. Make the turrets on the tanks better, because they kinda suck at killing infantry unless the tank is standing still, which is bad for the tank. I personally want a mini blaster turret, that's JUST like what the main turret is like, but just a little weaker so it can't kill tanks, but let the small missile have more of an ability to kill tanks, so it can at least help out more and not be useless for the better tanks. Hmm, swarm turrets do sound spiffy, but in my experience the small missile turrets are pretty good already for helping kill armor tanks. I would love to see some kind of anti-vehicle homing missile though for turrets
Give them a higher CPU/PG cost, and a little less than regular missiles, and I'm down.... Oh wait, how would they fit in with the new Missiles? Slight auto homing? |
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Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
1266
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Posted - 2013.10.18 02:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bump for glory!
Any other thoughts? |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1064
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Posted - 2013.10.18 02:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:I think you are right about the HAV in skirmish/domination/Planetary Conquset/AMbush OMS versus normal ambush.
When you only have 50 clones and no supply depots of course HAVs become extraordinarily powerful. I guess this does leave CCP a choice, balance for ambush or balance for the rest of the modes. Or, you know, they could balance for FW and PC........... |
Magnus Amadeuss
DUST University Ivy League
93
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 02:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:I think you are right about the HAV in skirmish/domination/Planetary Conquset/AMbush OMS versus normal ambush.
When you only have 50 clones and no supply depots of course HAVs become extraordinarily powerful. I guess this does leave CCP a choice, balance for ambush or balance for the rest of the modes. Or, you know, they could balance for FW and PC...........
i.e the rest of the modes |
True Adamance
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3310
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Posted - 2013.10.18 03:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:I think you are right about the HAV in skirmish/domination/Planetary Conquset/AMbush OMS versus normal ambush.
When you only have 50 clones and no supply depots of course HAVs become extraordinarily powerful. I guess this does leave CCP a choice, balance for ambush or balance for the rest of the modes. Or, you know, they could balance for FW and PC........... i.e the rest of the modes We should never balance anything for the average blue dot, they are by far too incompetent to know what they are talking about. |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
743
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 03:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
The problem with HAVs is that they are practically immune to all normal infantry weaponry and completely decimated by AV weaponry. Here's how your success in a HAV is measured. If the enemy has AV weaponry of equal "tier" or above (STD for Militia Tanks, ADV for everything else), then you are dead. If not, feel free to drive around being completely invincible.
This imbalance makes it hard to balance cost versus effectiveness. If your make HAVs expensive like CCP has always done, you need to make them effective. If you make them too effective, players with tons of money can run them endlessly. So, CCPs solution is to make them easy to destroy with certain weapons. Which makes them not very effective half the time and very effective the other half of the time.
What I want, is cheaper vehicles that take more damage from normal weaponry and less damage from AV weaponry. In exchange, AV weaponry would cost less and be cheaper to skill into so that more people would run it. I only drive cheap Soma bricks for lulz, though, so maybe my advice isn't the best advice. |
Mortedeamor
Internal Rebellion
488
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 10:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Let tanks shoot swarm missiles. Of course you tankers need proto tanks, or at least advanced. Make the turrets on the tanks better, because they kinda suck at killing infantry unless the tank is standing still, which is bad for the tank. I personally want a mini blaster turret, that's JUST like what the main turret is like, but just a little weaker so it can't kill tanks, but let the small missile have more of an ability to kill tanks, so it can at least help out more and not be useless for the better tanks. another change to missiles that has been suggested before |
Racro 01 Arifistan
The Surrogates Of War
59
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Posted - 2013.10.18 11:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
no matter the game mode or map i can easly and relibly make a large number of kills with either my madruagr or Vayu. the only problem with useing vehicles is PROTO level av. ie wykomi SWLs nad laidai pck nades. they are too powerful and enable soloage of killing said tank alone. i know this for a fact since i have my own wykomi and 3 shot any vehicle on field. PROTO level AV is too strong right now. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
1455
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Posted - 2013.10.18 13:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
So OP wants to nerfs maps because pilots are smart and use what they are given and find good places to annoy the **** out of tryhard infantry who dont know what AV is
lolno |
steadyhand amarr
MoIden Heath PoIice Department EoN.
1593
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
To quote another poster.
This communty is great at pointing out what is not working and why.
However we are horrificly horrible at coming up with solutions :-( |
Borne Velvalor
BLACK-DRAGON-SOCIETY
751
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Posted - 2013.10.18 20:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'm not for altering maps, because altering the map structures and ranges can significantly change how other weapons play on said maps. |
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