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Respecs in regards to Basic Content

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Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 16	Posted - 2013.10.02 14:22:00 - [1] - Quote Threads about respecs go about it from the wrong angle. Your proto stuff getting nerfed and you only being able to use militia anything else isn't a good reason for a respec. It was your own decision to put all of your SP into a set of very specific gear. That's your fault, and those are the consequences. However, a big chunk of the game's basic content is still missing. I didn't make the decision to release Dust with basic content missing. That's CCP's fault. Some missing content: Various [Racial] [Size] Dropsuits are not in game yet such as Caldari Heavy frames. There are no MAVs. There are no Minmatar or Amarr vehicles at all. There are no aerial vehicles other than drop ships. Say, for example, I want to skill into Cal Heavies. They aren't in game yet, and I have no clue what their stats will be, but I just feel the desire to be a giant, shielded, Caldari mega-corporate sponsored death machine. What should I do until CCP decides to release this most basic of content? Should I just sit on my SP and play in militia gear? Should I quit Dust until CCP can release a finished product? Should I put my SP somewhere I think I might have fun until the basic content I want to try is released and then grind SP for that? How can I enjoy a gaming experience when CCP hasn't delivered the entire, fundamental content? Along those lines, how can CCP expect to successfully balance aspects of game play when so much basic content is missing? To counter CCP releasing a half missing game and calling it good, respecs should be granted at each patch that something basic is released. After that, if a player decides to sink all his SP into proto Cal Heavies, Forge Guns, and nanohives (or whatever) and CCP subsequently nerfs those things, well then that player put all his eggs into one basket, so to speak, and CCP took that basket and threw it on the ground. Then it's the players fault that all his proto stuff sucks and he has nothing to fall back on. To clarify my stance on basic content, commando suits, or other specialized suits such as 'assault' and 'logistics' (even though at first glance 'assault' would seem to 'basic' content in an FPS) don't represent 'basic' content. The pattern established with drop suits and vehicles is [Race] [Size]. We may or may not get a pilot suit, but a pilot suit is a type of [Race] [Size] dropsuit, and we currently don't have all those basic dropsuit frames. As more dropsuit roles get added to the game, they won't provide sufficient reason to respec. They'll just be new content. However, the basic content isn't there yet. Weapons are a bit more tricky, but I don't feel that each race has a basic showing of its own racial weaponry yet, with their own racially unique damage profiles. The sooner CCP introduces the game's basic content, the sooner we can rightly smack down people asking for respecs, and the sooner CCP can make balance changes within the scope of the entire game. The longer CCP takes to release this basic content, the more problems Dust will have. (As a side note, the missing content is a large reason I only play for about an hour at a time once every other week or so and why I don't put any USD into Dust at all.)
Cpl Foster USMC Foster's School of Warfare 258	Posted - 2013.10.02 14:24:00 - [2] - Quote good luck with all that...
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6637	Posted - 2013.10.02 14:25:00 - [3] - Quote Some new missing basic content: Enforcer HAVs Logistics LAVs Scout LAVs Logistics Dropships Assault Dropships
PEW JACKSON s i n g u l a r i t y 60	Posted - 2013.10.02 14:38:00 - [4] - Quote I want my respec becuase CCP likes to nerf and buff things just for lolz....
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 269	Posted - 2013.10.02 14:53:00 - [5] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: The sooner CCP introduces the game's basic content, the sooner we can rightly smack down people asking for respecs, and the sooner CCP can make balance changes within the scope of the entire game. The longer CCP takes to release this basic content, the more problems Dust will have. OK, think of it this way, if you didn't know that there was "missing basic content" and it was introduced over the next 10 years will the community cry for respecs at each content release? The way I see it, there is no missing content, the future content to be released is just that... future content! If people are stressing about having to save SP for this content then thats their problem. What if we have all the racial suits then CCP decides to release a complete new set (pirate? factional?) people will then be creating more of these bullshit threads!
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 601	Posted - 2013.10.02 14:59:00 - [6] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: The sooner CCP introduces the game's basic content, the sooner we can rightly smack down people asking for respecs, and the sooner CCP can make balance changes within the scope of the entire game. The longer CCP takes to release this basic content, the more problems Dust will have. OK, think of it this way, if you didn't know that there was "missing basic content" and it was introduced over the next 10 years will the community cry for respecs at each content release? The way I see it, there is no missing content, the future content to be released is just that... future content! If people are stressing about having to save SP for this content then thats their problem. What if we have all the racial suits then CCP decides to release a complete new set (pirate? factional?) people will then be creating more of these bullshit threads! the problem is, not only the BASIC content is missing but major changes happen every patch and we are still testing stuff. currently you are forced to take what you have now or you have endure horrible grind but no one goes for new stuff because we know the slow development process, bugfixes take several months and that is why everyone goes for AR 514, because it is known as working. it invalidates your "decision" everytime the devs change something you have placed SP into, in short it is just a coin toss. how do you exactly decide a coin toss? shall I list all stuff that took 3-5 months to fix? seriously, a respec benefits everyone: -The players that dont want them will still take advantage of them -The players that want/need them will be happy -Some old players will come back to test new stuff -CCP gets money to go on releasing stuff -balancing process speeds up
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 2510	Posted - 2013.10.02 15:16:00 - [7] - Quote Heck, forget all the valid arguments for why there should be another respec when you can simply look at it like this: Is Dust more of a beta now than the open beta was? The answer is an obvious "Yes." It may not have the beta title, but they've been making more changes to Dust now than ever before. Whenever CCP is finished with this total revamping for how Dust works, doing a full respec for everyone just like when we exited their first poor excuse for a beta should be appropriate.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 16	Posted - 2013.10.02 15:32:00 - [8] - Quote I'm gonna address some things point by point. @DUST Fiend: I'm not saying removing those things was the right way to go, but I hope it does help them rebalance vehicles properly. Again, they will have an extremely hard time balancing vehicles when we're missing Minmatar and Amarr vehicles from the mix. But understand that an Enforcer is NOT basic. That is a special role. A Caldari HAV IS basic, an Enforcer is a specific role based around a [Race] HAV. @PEW JACKSON: Maybe I didn't make myself clear. CCP nerfed your crap. Deal with it. @Rogue Saint: I can understand that point entirely, but the fact is that Dust doesn't exist in a new setting like other MMOs. Dust exists in the world of Eve, and Eve follows a very specific pattern. At time of release, Eve had ships such as [Race] [Class]. That's the most basic content. Eve set the precedent for Dust. T2, Navy, and Pirate are all specific roles that require some groundwork of [Race] [Class]. It's fine if you see Dust as a happy-go-lucky-call-it-good release, but the fact is that you're wrong, and that very basic content is missing. You can say 'we have all the racial suits' but you're wrong. The suits follow the precedent set by Eve. The missing suits were shown at FanFest in Iceland. You're free to think this a bullshit thread, but I'll call you out for your reading comprehension skills. I was very clear with what constitutes 'basic content.' I was very clear that respecs should only be made available when CCP fixes their game by adding this missing content. I was very clear that CCP needs to get its act in gear and release this missing, basic content as soon as possible. I was very clear that them releasing this content ASAP would help us stamp out these people asking for respecs because their proto whatever got nerfed.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 17	Posted - 2013.10.02 15:41:00 - [9] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Is Dust more of a beta now than the open beta was? The answer is an obvious "Yes." I worked hard on those valid arguments. But seriously, this is a huge point. Not one I feel is related to respecs, necessarily (my valid points are better), but still huge. The biggest thing in my mind is the way they're reworking vehicles, but taking out all the role specific vehicles. It's literally like they've gone back to beta. That could be the name of the next expansion. Dust 514 2.0 Back to Beta.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 346	Posted - 2013.10.02 15:45:00 - [10] - Quote Although I have, in the past, been hard on those asking for a respec, I apologize. You have made some very good points and your logic seems sound. If there were to be another release of the basic [race][class] content I would fully support respecs and am willing to stand by this decision. We are missing pieces of the game that are quite possibly going to set everyone back millions of SP to use, test and balance and as we are still without any real good way to get those SP needed for testing purposes short of grinding until they are available it would be a bad idea for anyone to think that X suit/vehicle will be a quick skill. +1

Bethhy Ancient Exiles 150	Posted - 2013.10.02 15:52:00 - [11] - Quote Respec's are stupid... I Won't say that I will not re-perfect skills for the current times if they are offered... but that really changes the game drastically... Respec's will only hurt new players more... and benefit high skill point characters to stupid amounts... We have done this and that is what happened... not to say we didn't like it ;) If skill multiplyer's are tweaked or how the hierarchy works? CCP is always good at Reimbursing those skill point's so players can re allocate... But nothing more then that should ever be offered... It's game breaking... and all of you that can't see that are selfish.
Aaroniero d'Lioncourt The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 142	Posted - 2013.10.02 15:54:00 - [12] - Quote When players can't find anything to QQ about.. always ends up asking for a respec in different styles. Only two words for this. "Pushed back"
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 1056	Posted - 2013.10.02 15:58:00 - [13] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: OK, think of it this way, if you didn't know that there was "missing basic content" and it was introduced over the next 10 years will the community cry for respecs at each content release? The way I see it, there is no missing content, the future content to be released is just that... future content! If people are stressing about having to save SP for this content then thats their problem. What if we have all the racial suits then CCP decides to release a complete new set (pirate? factional?) people will then be creating more of these bullshit threads! This is a load of crap. If There is an Amarr Sentinel, there should be a Sentinel for ever other Race. This is Basic Content. The other Sentinels should have been added before the Amarr Commando. There never was a Commando before the Amarr, this is Expansion Content. It is an entirely new Role. If a role exist for one Race, the same Role option should be present for every race. This is Basic RPG Content. I'm Minmatar, but want to play as a Heavy. Oh wait, there is no Minmatar Heavy, there is only Amarr. Choices only matter if you have a choice to begin with. Heavies didn't have any choices.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 605	Posted - 2013.10.02 16:04:00 - [14] - Quote I can only say that: I didn't make the decision to release Dust with basic content missing. I didn't make the decision to release broken or unbalanced content. I didn't make the decision to take several months to fix existing content. That's CCP's fault. Choices only matter if you have a choice to begin with. CCP is doing the choices currently. I was preaching this for how long? dont remember anymore, anyway this will soon also get trolled and derailed by some useless guys with tiny scrub egos because their feelings would get hurt when the community gets what they are asking for.
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 18	Posted - 2013.10.02 16:09:00 - [15] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Respec's are stupid... I Won't say that I will not re-perfect skills for the current times if they are offered... but that really changes the game drastically... Respec's will only hurt new players more... and benefit high skill point characters to stupid amounts... We have done this and that is what happened... not to say we didn't like it ;) If skill multiplyer's are tweaked or how the hierarchy works? CCP is always good at Reimbursing those skill point's so players can re allocate... But nothing more then that should ever be offered... It's game breaking... and all of you that can't see that are selfish. I have a feeling I'll mention this again and again in this thread. "re-perfect skills" This is fine. It's totally okay if CCP releases some basic content and gives us a respec, and you use it to sink every single one of your SPs into Proto whatever. But if you do, and your proto something gets nerfed to hell and back, then that's the consequences of your actions. The idea here is NOT to hand out respecs because YOU suffers consequences for your OWN actions (how they placed their SP.) The idea is that CCP hasn't finished the core fundamentals of this game and that's on them, not the player. They should provide the player wit ha way to access that basic content when it eventually is released, and that would come by way of respec.
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 270	Posted - 2013.10.02 16:13:00 - [16] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: the problem is, not only the BASIC content is missing but major changes happen every patch and we are still testing stuff. currently you are forced to take what you have now or you have endure horrible grind but no one goes for new stuff because we know the slow development process, bugfixes take several months and that is why everyone goes for AR 514, because it is known as working. beside that it invalidates your "decision" everytime the devs change something you have placed SP into, in short it is just a coin toss. how do you exactly decide a coin toss? shall I maybe list all stuff that took 3-5 months to fix or that got screwed with a patch? This is the nature of an ever changing MMO, patches are released, ** happens, things get fixed/nerfed/buffed/balanced. We will always be testers of the systems CCP produces, having a few thousand players "testing" the game through normal play will always trump an internal test team. MMO's are about the grind, 90% of the MMO's I've played have grind somewhere to gain the edge/advantage. Sure its "horrible" but thats part of the game mechanic and if you don't like it then this type of game is not for you. Sure CCP have made a few faux pas along the way, but they have resolved the issues pretty quick due to feedback from the community. I personally think the game is in a great position at the moment. As time goes by everything in the game will be tweaked, to say that its a coin toss for your SP is narrow minded, your supposed to adapt you know! Just becuase your FotM was balanced doesn't mean the game suck now, just the fact that you were happy with your crutch and can't adapt. Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: @Rogue Saint: I can understand that point entirely, but the fact is that Dust doesn't exist in a new setting like other MMOs. Dust exists in the world of Eve, and Eve follows a very specific pattern. At time of release, Eve had ships such as [Race] [Class]. That's the most basic content. Eve set the precedent for Dust. T2, Navy, and Pirate are all specific roles that require some groundwork of [Race] [Class]. At the time of release EvE didn't have ALL the ships it has now! No T3's for example! The evolution of the game added what could be seen as "basic content" over the years. My point is that who knows what "basic content" is on CCP's list that we don't know about, whih will then make people QQ here for a respec jsut because they don't want to grind for it! Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:** It's fine if you see Dust as a happy-go-lucky-call-it-good release, but the fact is that you're wrong, and that very basic content is missing. You can say 'we have all the racial suits' but you're wrong. The suits follow the precedent set by Eve. The missing suits were shown at FanFest in Iceland. You're free to think this a bullshit thread, but I'll call you out for your reading comprehension skills. I was very clear with what constitutes 'basic content.' I was very clear that respecs should only be made available when CCP fixes their game by adding this missing content. I was very clear that CCP needs to get its act in gear and release this missing, basic content as soon as possible. I was very clear that them releasing this content ASAP would help us stamp out these people asking for respecs because their proto whatever got nerfed. I never said we had all the racial suits, nor did I say that was a "happy-go-lucky-call-it-good", it has its problems, which will be fixed over the life time of the game. I saw the suits at Fanfest, I was one of the bitter EvE vets proclaiming the down fall of New Eden with the introduction of DUST514 and bought a PS3 in the airport on the way back so I know both sides of the coin. Many of us are so tired of seeing respec threads and QQ all the time. You spec into a racial suit (Amarr Heavy for ex.), the other racial variants come out, just grind for those too, because thats the whole point of the game. Each suit has its own niche, so eventually a heavy should have all the racial variants!
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 18	Posted - 2013.10.02 16:48:00 - [17] - Quote @Rogue Saint: I'm really trying to like you (I'm polite n stuff), but you're making it hard. I'm gonna hit on this again. You said "At the time of release EvE didn't have ALL the ships it has now! No T3's for example!" I know. I'm aware of that. I said "At time of release, Eve had ships such as [Race] [Class]. That's the most basic content." I'm gonna make this really clear for you. Eve was released with some basic content. It had a few ship classes and racial variants of all those classes. As I said (if you didn't read the post), Navy, T2, Pirate, all came later as new content in various expansion. That new content was based on the basic content of [Race] [Class] ships. This is the paradigm. This is the precedent that CCP has set. Dust is NOT like any other MMO. It's unique. It should be special. It's set in the setting of one of the most kick ass MMOs out there. It's set in the setting that was made by CCP that set precedent. CCP has said at Fanfest that they were keeping with the pattern of [Race] [Class] for dropsuits, and would be releasing this basic content. T2, Navy, and Pirate dropsuits would be based on that basic groundwork. 'Assault' suits are a specific role that are based off of [Race] Medium frames, there for 'Assault' suits are not basic content. Tell me how to make this more understandable for you and I'll do it. I'm nothing if not patient. Edit: And the idea for skill training laid out by CCP is certainly NOT to take forever to generalize and train everything eventually, like you said. The goal is to take less time to specialize, and be as good as one thing as someone who has been playing longer.
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 270	Posted - 2013.10.02 16:55:00 - [18] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: @Rogue Saint: I'm really trying to like you (I'm polite n stuff), but you're making it hard. Of course I understand what you are saying, as I did the first time, of course there is missing stuff, but that doesn't mean a respec is warranted. What if CCP decide to never release the Caldari Scout, or Gallente Heavy? Are people gunna QQ here and say the game is "incomplete"? Sure it would break the EvE style of [Race] [Class], but to base a respec on that seems redundant since you can grind for more SP and no suit / weapon etc. will ever be out of your reach if you put in the time.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 605	Posted - 2013.10.02 17:37:00 - [19] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: [quote=Jack McReady] This is the nature of an ever changing MMO, patches are released, **** happens, things get fixed/nerfed/buffed/balanced. We will always be testers of the systems CCP produces, having a few thousand players "testing" the game through normal play will always trump an internal test team. MMO's are about the grind, 90% of the MMO's I've played have grind somewhere to gain the edge/advantage. Sure its "horrible" but thats part of the game mechanic and if you don't like it then this type of game is not for you. Sure CCP have made a few faux pas along the way, but they have resolved the issues pretty quick due to feedback from the community. I personally think the game is in a great position at the moment. As time goes by everything in the game will be tweaked, to say that its a coin toss for your SP is narrow minded, your supposed to adapt you know! Just becuase your FotM was balanced doesn't mean the game suck now, just the fact that you were happy with your crutch and can't adapt. not sure if troll or just a scrub... I dont remember MMOs coming without the basic content out of beta, those MMOs are a minority and they offer retraining I also would like to see in which universe 3-5 months are "resolved the issues pretty quick". I can list alot of stuff that took months to fix and some stuff is still not resolved CCP is doing decisions right now and forcing players to endure it, thats all.
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 270	Posted - 2013.10.02 17:40:00 - [20] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: not sure if troll or just a scrub... I dont remember MMOs coming without the basic content out of beta, those MMOs are a minority and they offer retraining I also would like to see in which universe 3-5 months are "resolved the issues pretty quick". I can list alot of stuff that took months to fix and some stuff is still not resolved CCP is doing decisions right now and forcing players to endure it, thats all. I would also suggest you to wake up from your tunnelvision because this does not help the game at all. I also do not need to argue with such fanboyish reply, the playercount disagrees with you, per month the playercount at primetime decreases by ~500. You have your ****-tinted glasses, I have my rose-tinted ... We will never agree, so.

Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 605	Posted - 2013.10.02 17:41:00 - [21] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: Jack McReady wrote: not sure if troll or just a scrub... I dont remember MMOs coming without the basic content out of beta, those MMOs are a minority and they offer retraining I also would like to see in which universe 3-5 months are "resolved the issues pretty quick". I can list alot of stuff that took months to fix and some stuff is still not resolved CCP is doing decisions right now and forcing players to endure it, thats all. I would also suggest you to wake up from your tunnelvision because this does not help the game at all. I also do not need to argue with such fanboyish reply, the playercount disagrees with you, per month the playercount at primetime decreases by ~500. You have your ****-tinted glasses, I have my rose-tinted ... We will never agree, so. as mentioned ~500 players per month giving up dust due to the issues disagree with you, that is all I need to back up my claims... you just dont get that respec would speed up development till core stuff is fixed and basic content is done. we are just beta testers and beta testing gets old pretty fast when changes take 3-5 months.
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 270	Posted - 2013.10.02 17:51:00 - [22] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: as mentioned ~500 players per month giving up dust due to the issues disagree with you, that is all I need to back up my claims... you just dont get that respec would speed up development till core stuff is fixed and basic content is done. we are just beta testers and beta testing gets old pretty fast when changes take 3-5 months. So why are you banging your head against a brick wall then? Don't play, become the 501'st player to leave. Go play an off the shelf title... The game will always be beta, once you can accept that you will find your inner peace. A respec would speed up development? What are you smoking?
Tebu Gan CrimeWave Syndicate 124	Posted - 2013.10.02 18:13:00 - [23] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: Jack McReady wrote: as mentioned ~500 players per month giving up dust due to the issues disagree with you, that is all I need to back up my claims... you just dont get that respec would speed up development till core stuff is fixed and basic content is done. we are just beta testers and beta testing gets old pretty fast when changes take 3-5 months. So why are you banging your head against a brick wall then? Don't play, become the 501'st player to leave. Go play an off the shelf title... The game will always be beta, once you can accept that you will find your inner peace. A respec would speed up development? What are you smoking? Respecs = replay value, lots of MMO's use that tactic to keep people interested. Choice is something lacking, yet you assume your choice matters. How so. I think something you miss a lot of is that this is no sandbox MMO like eve. Not even close. Shooting people in the face, that is all you do. This is Call of Duty, with MMO style character development. I really don't understand how a Respec breaks the game (can't break a broken game anyways). This is not a RPG/MMO(ever wonder why WoW had more players than eve ever has?) This is a FPS, with RPG character development. FPS first, why does everyone compare this to Eve. The FPS world works a bit differently when it comes to player retention. I mean really tell me what you do in EvE, the options are limitless. What do you do in Dust514, shoot people in the face for skill points. Get's old after a while.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 605	Posted - 2013.10.02 18:47:00 - [24] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: Jack McReady wrote: as mentioned ~500 players per month giving up dust due to the issues disagree with you, that is all I need to back up my claims... you just dont get that respec would speed up development till core stuff is fixed and basic content is done. we are just beta testers and beta testing gets old pretty fast when changes take 3-5 months. So why are you banging your head against a brick wall then? Don't play, become the 501'st player to leave. Go play an off the shelf title... The game will always be beta, once you can accept that you will find your inner peace. A respec would speed up development? What are you smoking? i am trying to save the game in that you invested your mommys money. and yes, respec speeds up development, people would try out new thinks, give their feedback and CCP could collect data in the background like they always do. currently no one is giving feedback, e.g. I was the only one pushing the PLC bugs in the forum for weeks and stopped cause I am tired to do so and nobody cares. no one is going to invest SP now into new stuff due to the slow developmen, it is too risky cause you will end up with a broken toy if you are unlucky. it took the whole beta to fix hit detection issues, it took several months to fix MD hit detection, it took months to fix other issues, it will take as long with everything else and some stuff is still not balanced or fixed. also its funny how you brought the same "decision matter" argument that was already busted before plenty of times. you simply live in a dreamworld. we have no decision and this is not a sandbox MMO, all you do is shooting people in the face with the AR.
Ghost Kaisar Pradox One 398	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:31:00 - [25] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: summed up, arguments for respec: -The players that dont want them will still take advantage of them -The players that want/need them will be happy -Some old players will come back to test new stuff -CCP gets money to go on releasing stuff -balancing process speeds up arguments against: some pseudo elitist BS about "decisions" which isnt true at all THIS. Why don't we have respecs? It's not like this is out of beta.


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