DUST Search - I'm getting pretty sick

Cosgar wrote:

Verdge Aentilles wrote:

Cosgar wrote:

Verdge Aentilles wrote:

Crash Monster wrote:

If he isn't dying fast enough... evade (have a way out before engaging). Preferably your way out leads your opponent to other blues for the assist.

My point is, that shouldn't be necessary. I see two options for bringing dropsuit tanking in line with weapon scaling: either standardize slot counts across tiers, keep module scaling power gaps how they are, and make it PG/CPU limited, or keep the increasing slot counts, but bring HP-per-module scaling in line with weapon scaling. Proto gear should certainly give you an advantage, I just don't think that the relative level of tank achievable by current protosuits is reasonable.

Heh, you used to get more base HP the higher the suit tier you used. Proto is supposed to give you advantage because you earn it through investing time and SP. But even if they have better tech, it doesn't replace skill. It's just more of an uphill battle from your end. Punishing veteran players isn't the best way to balance things. Ask any pilot.

Better tech DOES replace skill up to a point.

You just proved my statement. Up to a point. Nobody is invincible, just a little harder to kill than others. The difference in EHP is literally a few extra militia AR rounds when you break it down. You're probably never going to take a proto suit head on in a standard/militia fit with ease, but you're not supposed to. That dynamic of being able to build and improve your character is an essential core mechanic to the game's meta. It gives you a reason to grind out that SP- to get better. This is what separates Dust from a bubblegum FPS.


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Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.09.26 18:49:00 - [1] - Quote of dying to players I've outmaneuvered and out-aimed just because their proto asses can fit over 2x my HP. Don't get me wrong, I like the tier system in general, but having over 2x the HP = over 2x the TTK = they can f--k up significantly and still kill me with ease. It's no wonder the new player retention rate is so low.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.09.26 18:56:00 - [2] - Quote To make matters worse, the only way out of this situation is playing for 6 months to get enough SP to run full proto myself, and then being on the other side of the problem and making it even worse. Unless, perhaps, CCP were to realize that this may be what's killing the NPE and do something about it.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.09.26 19:04:00 - [3] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Proto? Lol. Let them waste their isk. Lose two suits theyll b negative for game. Find good efficient counter fittings to proto or get better, squad up and use proto on ur own. Disclaimer, I have proto nothing There is no "good efficient counter" to a 1k HP CalLogi. Is there? "get better and use proto" takes many months of capped-out SP gain. A squad of 6 competent players in STD gear is still going to get crushed by a squad of 2 or 3 protobears. The argument from ISK is meaningless, many players have enough ISK to lose 1000s of proto suits and not care. Especially with PC being a magical ISK-pooping unicorn that no one has to spend money to defend any more.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.09.26 19:19:00 - [4] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: I don't know how someone who can aim with an assault rifle can "outmaneuver" someone and not kill them. If you hit them with most of your shots you'll do far more damage than even the beefiest suit can handle. I do this all the time with an exile AR of all things. I don't even use damage mods. Example: I'm rolling STD Min Assault, with 3x basic shield extenders, and basic repper. I come up against bricked Cal Logi from the side and start unloading with a basic AR. After 1 second of perfectly on-target fire (~425 DPS), the enemy still has significantly more HP than me. Any half decent player, by that point, will bunny hop, turn on me, and start AR-ing back with a Duvolle. With a few levels of proficiency, his AR damage oustrips mine, and combined with the fact that he STILL has more HP than me after a perfectly-aimed sneak attack, he has a very good chance of winning. I roll Amarr Logi on my main, and even at ADV level, I can do the above to many, if not most, MLT/STD players.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.09.26 19:30:00 - [5] - Quote Crash Monster wrote: If he isn't dying fast enough... evade (have a way out before engaging). Preferably your way out leads your opponent to other blues for the assist. My point is, that shouldn't be necessary. I see two options for bringing dropsuit tanking in line with weapon scaling: either standardize slot counts across tiers, keep module scaling power gaps how they are, and make it PG/CPU limited, or keep the increasing slot counts, but bring HP-per-module scaling in line with weapon scaling. Proto gear should certainly give you an advantage, I just don't think that the relative level of tank achievable by current protosuits is reasonable.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.09.26 19:42:00 - [6] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Verdge Aentilles wrote: Crash Monster wrote: If he isn't dying fast enough... evade (have a way out before engaging). Preferably your way out leads your opponent to other blues for the assist. My point is, that shouldn't be necessary. I see two options for bringing dropsuit tanking in line with weapon scaling: either standardize slot counts across tiers, keep module scaling power gaps how they are, and make it PG/CPU limited, or keep the increasing slot counts, but bring HP-per-module scaling in line with weapon scaling. Proto gear should certainly give you an advantage, I just don't think that the relative level of tank achievable by current protosuits is reasonable. Heh, you used to get more base HP the higher the suit tier you used. Proto is supposed to give you advantage because you earn it through investing time and SP. But even if they have better tech, it doesn't replace skill. It's just more of an uphill battle from your end. Punishing veteran players isn't the best way to balance things. Ask any pilot. Better tech DOES replace skill up to a point. If they have to land half as many bullets as me in order to get a kill, how is that not directly replacing an element of skill with better tech? Again, I'm perfectly fine with there being some, even a significant, advantage provided by better tech. That's a big draw of Dust for me. I just think the numbers need re-scaling. Also, you totally still get more HP depending on what level of suit you use. Don't pretend that more module slots is something different than more HP or damage, because with the current metagame, it's absolutely not.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.09.26 20:09:00 - [7] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Verdge Aentilles wrote: Cosgar wrote: Verdge Aentilles wrote: Crash Monster wrote: If he isn't dying fast enough... evade (have a way out before engaging). Preferably your way out leads your opponent to other blues for the assist. My point is, that shouldn't be necessary. I see two options for bringing dropsuit tanking in line with weapon scaling: either standardize slot counts across tiers, keep module scaling power gaps how they are, and make it PG/CPU limited, or keep the increasing slot counts, but bring HP-per-module scaling in line with weapon scaling. Proto gear should certainly give you an advantage, I just don't think that the relative level of tank achievable by current protosuits is reasonable. Heh, you used to get more base HP the higher the suit tier you used. Proto is supposed to give you advantage because you earn it through investing time and SP. But even if they have better tech, it doesn't replace skill. It's just more of an uphill battle from your end. Punishing veteran players isn't the best way to balance things. Ask any pilot. Better tech DOES replace skill up to a point. You just proved my statement. Up to a point. Nobody is invincible, just a little harder to kill than others. The difference in EHP is literally a few extra militia AR rounds when you break it down. You're probably never going to take a proto suit head on in a standard/militia fit with ease, but you're not supposed to. That dynamic of being able to build and improve your character is an essential core mechanic to the game's meta. It gives you a reason to grind out that SP- to get better. This is what separates Dust from a bubblegum FPS. It's NOT just a few extra militia AR rounds, FFS, it's a full second of AR dps (425, 12 shots) or more! The difference is not minor, it's more than double. That's not "a little harder to kill", thats "I'm guaranteed to lose a 1v1 unless the enemy has a seizure." I agree it should be harder to kill protosuits than others, but right now a dual-tanked proto suit with an AR is serious win button.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.09.26 20:28:00 - [8] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: It sounds like your a scout? Sorry to tell you, but scouts aren't meamt for taking on squads, if you are taking on just 1 guy, what are using? It sounds like you did not read the thread. I'm not a scout and I'm not trying to drop a full squad. 6 coordinated players SHOULD win. For the purposes of analysis, I'm talking about a STD AR medium frame going up against a PRO AR medium frame. Cosgar wrote: Verdge Aentilles wrote: It's NOT just a few extra militia AR rounds, FFS, it's a full second of AR dps (425, 12 shots) or more! The difference is not minor, it's more than double. That's not "a little harder to kill", thats "I'm guaranteed to lose a 1v1 unless the enemy has a seizure." I agree it should be harder to kill protosuits than others, but right now a dual-tanked proto suit with an AR is serious win button. Why are you trying to 1v1 someone in a team based game anyway? This is why we have squads and teams so you don't have to duel someone with better tech than you. Change your strategy. The definition of insanity is trying to do the same thing, expecting different results. My analysis is just as valid as you scale it up to squad or team level. An equally skilled squad of STD players has no chance of winning over a squad of PRO-geared players, and the same holds for a team. A team with 8 random protos vs a team with no random protos has significantly less total team HP and DPS. Maybe if matchmaking worked it would be OK, but it doesn't so it's not. I do use different strategies- everything from range advantage with LRs to burst damage advantage with SCRs to cheap cooked grenade kills to MD ninja-ing. I can do fine, and it won't stop me playing the game. I've long since given up on winning the situation I'm talking about, I just think it's indicative of game balance issues that are hurting the NPE. I simply don't think it should be outright impossible to go to head to head with the same weapon.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.09.26 21:02:00 - [9] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Its already highly condensed! Have you done calcs on the ACTUAL difference? You want maths? Fine. Math time. STD AR DPS = 425 (34/shot * (750 RPM / 60 seconds)) PRO AR DPS = 467 (37.4/shot * (750 RPM / 60 seconds)) Fitting 1: STD Cal Medium EHP when dual-tanked (2 basic extenders 2 basic plates): 544 Fitting 2: PRO Cal Medium EHP when dual-tanked (4 complex extenders 3 basic plates): 849 Fitting 3: STD Cal Logi EHP when dual-tanked (2 basic extenders 1 basic plate): 399 Fitting 4: PRO Cal Logi EHP when dual-tanked (5 complex extenders 4 basic plates): 940 TTKs: Fitting 1: 1.16 with proto AR, 1.28 with std AR Fitting 2: 1.81 with proto AR, 1.99 with std AR Fitting 3: 0.85 with proto AR, 0.93 with std AR Fitting 4: 2.01 with proto AR, 2.21 with std AR So, when we have Fitting 1 vs Fitting 4, Fitting 1 must land 2.21 seconds worth of AR damage on Fitting 4, before Fitting 4 can land 1.16 seconds of AR DPS on it. In other words, Fitting 4 can afford to miss a full second of DPS and still win the fight. Note that I'm assuming no levels of proficiency on the proto AR, so the real numbers have an even bigger gap. If the Proto AR has Prof V, the TTK on fitting 1 drops to 1.01 seconds. This further illustrates the idiocy of the current fitting metagame. If you're not sticking basic plates in all your lows and either shield extensions or damage modifiers in the highs, the vast TTK gaps outlined above get even bigger. For example, if the STD Cal Medium wanted to run a repper, the TTK on its suit drops to 0.98 seconds against a zero-proficiency proto AR. The Logi, having a built-in complex repper, doesn't need to do that. TL;DR: A proto Cal Logi can miss about 50% of its shots against a STD Cal Medium that has 100% accuracy, and still win the fight. That, right there, is gear making skill irrelevant.
Verdge Aentilles Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2013.09.26 21:48:00 - [10] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: Ok so in the examples you just gave with actual math, those are relevant if both guys both shooting at each other at the same time like an old western duel. You claim you're getting the drop on people and they're still killing you. Who are you shooting at? Neo? There's only a .2 second difference max between STD and PRO...does the guy do a backflp and aim at you in less than .1 of a second? Sounds to me like either you're not actually getting the drop on these guys, or you're getting too excited and missing your shots. Read please, that .2 second difference is between STD and PRO weapons. I'm not saying weapon DPS is too high, I'm saying the difference in relative tank between suits in the same class is too high. The TTK difference is over 1 second. I can turn and shoot someone who's shooting at me from behind in under a second, easily.