I'm a strong believer in Minmatar ways, but I sometimes wonder why I'm fighting the Empire. could a fellow Minmatar catch me up ???

Just a correction there Adamance, we weren't split in two exactly, only the Nefantar tribe sided with the Amarr and that wasn't during the rebellion, but during the initial reclaiming.

((In reality it was to start buying up all the Starkimir slaves to save them from being completely wiped out, no one knows this but the elders and a few of the Amatar/Nefantar though. An Amarrian general wanted revenge because a Starkimir killed the head of his house or something. I'll need to look it up again to be sure.))

That's right, you also mentioned the Starkimir who I was going to ask about.

Khu-Arzad and what he did for the Starkmanir is one of the main reasons I have respect for the Amarrians.
At the same time, Ardishapur is one of the main reasons I despise them so.

Yet Articio Kor Azor was able to somewhat make amends for Ardishapurs sins, and his own.

Tearing down a people like Ardishapur did is hardly a redeemable act. You can try to make amends, but the fact is that it happened.

And wait... Aritcio Kor-Azor making amends? You must be joking.

Indeed he was a changed man after his visit from the Speak of Truth.

Again - He committed countless atrocities once. It hardly redeems a people when the characters you'd hold up as the best in your society were once so despicable.

I'm not a Minmatar but I will tell you why.

Originally after the EVE Gates collapse, a massive wormhole in space, so I believe it to be, all of the scattered settling races of New Eden were thrown into their own Dark Ages. The Amarr were religious missionaries of sorts, the MInmatar were more fractious.

The Amarr home world of Athra was a desert planet and a tough one, the Matari planet was a natural paradise.

Because of this the religious Amarr considered their Dark Ages a test from God, which they passed, formed their own religious. Additionally the Amarr were the first peoples in New Eden besides the Jove to take to space, and with their religion they formed one core tenet that was their purpose in the universe.

To Reclaim

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,
And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:
Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."I
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13

In doing this the Amarr set out from Athra to Reclaim the stars in the name of God, the Holy Empire, and Mankind.

They began to conquer and enslave all of the races they encountered, subjugating them and testing them, and finally allowing them to enter the main body of the empire once that race had proved themselves worthy. This happened to the Ni-Kunni, Khanid, and several other subservient races.

Then the Amarr met the Minmatar.

Depending on who you ask, the Minmatar were either without a means of space travel, or were already colonising other planet, I believe they were using a very crude form of space travel, however the Amarr set upon them and conquered them easily with vastly superior technology.

The Minmatar were now a slave race.

What you have to understand about the Amarr is that they don't take slaves for personal gain, to get free labour while they relaxi and the slaves die, nor do they do it for any other reason than to test the slave races to see if they are ready to join the empire.

In anycase for several hundred years the Amarr made the Minmatar toil away, they gave them educations, technology, taught them, schooled them, loved them as a parent loved a child.

However Amarrian Imperial dreams were growing too greatly, the the Federation fearing a war on a second front (they weer fighting the Caldari) would intervene.

The Gallente needing something to stop the Empire from attacking them devised a plan to use the Minmatar as a shield against the Amarr. They supplied the Matari with weapons and a means to fight back. Meanwhile the Amarr arrogantly challenged the Jovians in order to enslave them too, broadcasting their intent weeks in advance.

The Jove crushed the Amarr fleet, the MInmatar rebelled. And millions died in the Great Rebellion. The Minmatar were split in two, the loyalists took the name Ammatar (Amarr and Matari combined) while the renegades took the old Minmatar name. However they could not liberate all of the slaves.

Traditionally a Matari warrior would say he is fighting for Freedom for his people (an Ideal inspired by the Gallente), Revenge against the Amarr for the enslavement of his people, because they have something to prove. Under the surface their is a lot of bitterness against the Amarr in some cases unwarranted ( the chronicle where a bitter Matari man cannot understand why the Ammatar love being a part of the Empire, in the end he kills his own people because he is bitter).

Now for my propaganda.

While the newly freed Minmatar enjoyed social freedom, they became a poor empire, somewhat subservient to the Gallente, many Matari leave as refugees to the Gallente to face tough social barriers, in some cases discrimination, in others they plunge to the bottom of the Gallente social structure to live in squalor and hardship.

While the Ammatar who remained loyal, now have schools and hospitals, are cared for by the Amarr, are not mistreated or abused, who choose to believe deeply in the Faith. These Ammatar are now a part of the Empie, somewhat and live in relative peace.

I am not 100% sure but this seems just a wee bit biased.

I am not 100% sure but this seems just a wee bit biased.

How so. It is what happened.

There is nothing bias except for the part where he clearly states the beginning of his propaganda. Everything above that is unarguable historical facts.

Then why do your own people still call it slavery? You aren't even trying to hide it behind political correctness. You may see it as "spiritual purification" but your own terms for it reveal what it is even to you.

Then why do your own people still call it slavery? You aren't even trying to hide it behind political correctness. You may see it as "spiritual purification" but your own terms for it reveal what it is even to you.

Similarly Arkena, you insist on calling it slaverly when we do not see it that way. It is a spiritual purification through servitude, yet you will not accept that phrasing. So how can you point out bias while you have your own?

What would the PC way of phrasing it be?

Let's call it what it is. It is slavery, and we own slaves. I'll not mince words.

But that begs the question why we have slavery. If you'll shelve preconceived notions about the subject and examine it logically you'll find it's the most compassionate course of action we can take.

The path to God is narrow and is easily lost in the confusion of life. So those who have trouble walking the path can only benefit from having their life simplified for them so they can focus on what really matters; their salvation.

The situation is dire. Either a soul is saved or it is lost to weep, wail and gnash it's teeth. There are no second chances and any soul that is lost is a failure that lays on those chosen by god to be their Saviour. We take the drastic action of enslaving millions because it is the only way we can help so many avoid the wolves and serpents.

[


Again, no matter the reason, no matter the why, slavery is slavery, and it is suffering. You could easily tell them of your religion, instead of force-feeding it to them. You could let them choose your religion, for should it not be the person himself to decide whether or not to believe in supernatural beings?

Freedom given, or assumed given, is meaningless, and a cage of complacency and entitlement that sheathes the mind. Freedom earned through toil, is valuable, freedom earned in the service of a higher cause is a key that will open your mind to greater possibilities.

Again, no matter the reason, no matter the why, slavery is slavery, and it is suffering. You could easily tell them of your religion, instead of force-feeding it to them. You could let them choose your religion, for should it not be the person himself to decide whether or not to believe in supernatural beings?

The very idea of your 'freedom' being achieved through forced labour is disgusting.
That runs completely against the very definition of the word.

The very idea of your 'freedom' being achieved through forced labour is disgusting.
That runs completely against the very definition of the word.

Slavery is but slavery whether you see it so or not.

Your reasons do not matter. You insist on dominating a different civilization, for whatever goals. Nothing can justify this.

As does your Federation insist on dominating many different civilizations. I'm sorry, Sir Hasting, but when any culture is going to insist on something so drastic the reasons and goals most definitely do matter.

The Amarr reasons and goals are evident and proven, while the Federation reasons and goals are also evident but with results to the contrary. As my colleagues have brought up in great clarity, we have motives for why we enslave, and in the end it always benefits those who are enslaved - history will not argue that. However, those who the Federation conquer are promised peace and freedom, but end up in a corrupt political system where their chances of success are slim to none and many end up enslaved to the drug culture which the Federation refuses to intervene on because of the profit to be gained.

Continuing from Aero's point. They also end up in a political system that means even should they want to exercise their rights to freedom and liberty and leave the Federation they are not able to because of the threat of military response.

I suppose you are referring to the Caldari here.
You are aware they razed one of our cities and killed every single person there, yes?

A terrorist wing, not affiliated with the State itself. I am also aware that there was significant destruction of Caldari Prime, and many casualties when the Gallente took the planet.

And yet that was the catalyst, not the mere act of leaving the Federation.

Yet you still would not let people who did not instigate the attack, nor had anything in common but race, go?

We let them go just fine, until they killed our people.
Do you seriously think any empire would simply stand by and do nothing when their cities were being razed?

And you are hardly one to point the finger of blame for unjust orbital bombardments. I seem to recall you murdered almost an entire people simply for adapting your religion slightly to their own ways.

We were not discussing my religion, though I won't deny it, God's word is not adaptable, it is a truth. I am much saddened that we were forced to take such a destructive course, but God's mercy is limited.

We were discussing how the Federations reluctance to let the Caldari see to their own affairs, and their seemingly lack of contriteness for killing millions of Caldari on their home world. Please do not go off topic.

We let them go just fine, until they killed our people.
Do you seriously think any empire would simply stand by and do nothing when their cities were being razed?

And you are hardly one to point the finger of blame for unjust orbital bombardments. I seem to recall you murdered almost an entire people simply for adapting your religion slightly to their own ways.

*clamps hands*

It appears as though we are running in circles with these arguments. If all could be reasoned with, there would be no need for war.

You cannot fault one of the Faithful for trying can you?

It is not you I fault, Crusader Kador.