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Since Vehicle Rebalance was deplayed past 1.5, I SURE hope 1.6 will have

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Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 343	Posted - 2013.09.19 13:39:00 - [1] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: ~Racial variants of all vehicles. ~New turret types ~A respec for vehicle users ~Dropship cloaking ~A new vehicle type ~The promise that with each introduction of new racial variants, partial respecs will be offered since CCP decided to release Dust without over half of it's content. These would be a good reason for having to wait another month. Out of curiosity, how long do you think each one of those line items would take in terms of man hours? If you have to ask that question, you need a bigger budget. If you think that throwing more money at a coding problem will make it happen faster you need to get the f* out of IT. Listen, I am a software developer. I work on applications for oil companies, brokerage firms and large energy companies with project budgets larger than CCP's annual income. Coding accounts for <40% of our time. Most of it is is investigation, design, approval, mockup, approval, (then coding), then unit tests, then fixing, then unit tests again, then QA pass, then staging release, then more QA tests, then full integration tests, then production release planning, then the production mock release, then (finally) the production release. They are on a 1 month agile release cycle which means 1 week of investigation, design, approval. Then a 2 week sprint of coding. Then 1 week of QA, integration testing and release. And that's if everything works out perfectly. If they find a nasty bug then they miss the release and make it to the next one. Throwing money at a problem helps to bring on more resources to spread out work. But suddenly adding 10 more programmers wont speed things up, in fact (most times) it slows things down as you need to dedicate man hours to training the new resources and deal with the bugs they will introduce due to not being familiar with the code. Eventually they will get up to speed, but even then you'll probably run into the problem of "too many hands in the cookie jar" which causes you to have to divvy up tasks into micro-projects which causes a nightmare with code merges / task management. - You yell when CCP doesn't tell you what's coming in the next patch. - Then when they do tell you whats coming you yell when it's delayed due to it being buggy and scream "release it anyway". - Then when they do release it anyway you yell that they don't know what they're doing and the new feature is broken and shouldn't have been released. - Then they don't tell you ** and you yell but they ignore you because no matter what they do you're going to yell. So for everyone commenting here who doesn't work as a programmer, shut up. I don't come into your workplace and tell you how to flip burgers faster...
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 343	Posted - 2013.09.19 14:06:00 - [2] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: [quote=Severus Smith]I am studying to be a programmer, how do I go about getting into the kind of work you are doing? Get a degree, or a bunch of certifications (degree for large companies, their HR departments will ignore your resume without one). Learn .NET MVC which is what is in demand right now, and consider adding emphasis on javascript libraries like JQuery, Breeze, Durandal and Knockout. Those are getting big, but could also bubble and die like previous web technologies (cough cough Silverlight). DB knowledge in SQL Server and Oracle always helps. I am lucky and work in Houston, TX which isn't really known as a "Tech City". However, since we have a lot of the big oil / energy companies here (and more keep coming) there's as large amount of demand for software developers to overhaul their systems and reduce costs. Look for places like that to move to. Where demand for developers is growing quickly but supply is low. Avoid places like Silicon Valley because everyone and their mother who wants to be in software goes there (like Hollywood for actors and New York for MBAs). So you're fighting a lot of competition (but it could pay off handsomely).
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 344	Posted - 2013.09.19 14:14:00 - [3] - Quote Awesome Pantaloons wrote: Well you know, all of those things could be possibly... if they didn't have just one man working on each category (e.g. vehicles, maps, weapons, dropsuits, etc.). If CCP had a proper team with multiple members working on each, production of updates could speed up greatly. facepalm More stupid to add to the discussion, thank you. They have teams! CCP FoxFour and Nullabor are on one team doing FW related stuff. Then there are a bunch of other teams in Shanghai. Each team probably has 2-4 developers, 1 BSA (maybe), and is overseen by a PM and a supervisor. Design is slow, coding isn't easy, and QA is annoying (but necessary). I am on a team of 8 right now and it has taken us 2 months to nail down a final design with the business (and this is usual). But sure, here's a task for you. Here's a trillion dollars (huge budget) and 100,000 people (huge resources) go build me Fusion reactor in a month. You have the money and people. KTHNX!
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 345	Posted - 2013.09.19 14:25:00 - [4] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Severus Smith wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: [quote=Severus Smith]I am studying to be a programmer, how do I go about getting into the kind of work you are doing? Get a degree, or a bunch of certifications (degree for large companies, their HR departments will ignore your resume without one). Learn .NET MVC which is what is in demand right now, and consider adding emphasis on javascript libraries like JQuery, Breeze, Durandal and Knockout. Those are getting big, but could also bubble and die like previous web technologies (cough cough Silverlight). DB knowledge in SQL Server and Oracle always helps. I am lucky and work in Houston, TX which isn't really known as a "Tech City". However, since we have a lot of the big oil / energy companies here (and more keep coming) there's as large amount of demand for software developers to overhaul their systems and reduce costs. Look for places like that to move to. Where demand for developers is growing quickly but supply is low. Avoid places like Silicon Valley because everyone and their mother who wants to be in software goes there (like Hollywood for actors and New York for MBAs). So you're fighting a lot of competition (but it could pay off handsomely). Awsome, Im currently getting a degree, got 2nd class (2% of a 1st) last year, am doing mysql, and javascript. Learning .NET MVC next year conveniently, and have a Cisco CCNA1 qualification already!! I'm aiming to get into the inhouse development team forba larger corporation, where each soultion has its own intricate little factors!! Good work, sounds like you have got a plan. Study these design patterns. RIght now they may not help if concepts such as Interfaces, Abstract Classes, or the difference between Client and Server code are unknown to you (took me awhile). But once you get those concepts down these design patterns help land you big jobs (interviewers love to ask about the Factory Pattern or how to implement a Singleton) and make things a lot easier.
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 346	Posted - 2013.09.19 15:22:00 - [5] - Quote scuba678 wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: ~Racial variants of all vehicles. ~New turret types ~A respec for vehicle users ~Dropship cloaking ~A new vehicle type ~The promise that with each introduction of new racial variants, partial respecs will be offered since CCP decided to release Dust without over half of it's content. These would be a good reason for having to wait another month. Out of curiosity, how long do you think each one of those line items would take in terms of man hours? It's not our job to figure out the man hours on this ... thats yours...everybody just wants you guys to keep your word....I'm A/V so i could care less what happens with the tanks..but you guys...CCP...talked up the viehicle 1.5 patch and everybody just jumped on your bandwagon...you guys built up everybody for this let down....just like your dated weekly forum dev updates post..that is religously late 5-10 days..actually often started with some sort of week excuse about a headache or a dog eating it or something... There are far too many problems with this game that need to be adressed like- Dying when you jump out of a dropship the squads are super messed up, i havnt even seen a warroom in 2 days and played in matches that have 16 people each side with no squad anywhere when in a tank you cant render crap from 20 meters my 15 million sp character does about the same as my free militia alt at least a half dozen glitch spots on the map where snipers sit every match that you cant hit 1 in 3 matches for me i end up playing nobody Do i need to go on...there are tons more...this is all more important than you having a shiney proto tank and some racial bounses..... And for the record....I feel like this comment from the Dev was a little rude...I might be the only one but, I feel that we are customers and you are selling a service..I know its hard sometimes but ...I manage a restaurant and If a guest asked me where his steak was, and i responded "do you know how long it takes to cook'? I would get fired....exspeacially if i told him it would take 10 minuites and he asked me 10 minuites later..like this senario Smile and say sorry...even if you dont mean it...thats buisness..But I'm good t my job..everybody is not so lucky Everyone has been yelling for information. "Tell us whats coming!", "Whats in the next patch?", "Why aren't you telling us things!?" and then when they do tell you and something happens we get people like you yelling "You built us up and lied!", "You're rude!", "Don't tell me how to do my job (manage a restaurant) here's how you should do your job (list of things to fix)" Please, shut up. Either ask for information and politely accept it when they give you further information about why it didn't work. Or be quiet and let them release things when they are ready. I don't come into your restaurant and expect my steak to be in front of me in 1 minute. Nor do I go to the back and curse out your cook for "lying to me" when my steak comes out medium well instead of medium rare. I wait for my food, politely send it back, wait for the correction, and still pay at the end because I am an adult with intelligence and manners.
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 346	Posted - 2013.09.19 15:27:00 - [6] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Severus Smith wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: ~Racial variants of all vehicles. ~New turret types ~A respec for vehicle users ~Dropship cloaking ~A new vehicle type ~The promise that with each introduction of new racial variants, partial respecs will be offered since CCP decided to release Dust without over half of it's content. These would be a good reason for having to wait another month. Out of curiosity, how long do you think each one of those line items would take in terms of man hours? If you have to ask that question, you need a bigger budget. If you think that throwing more money at a coding problem will make it happen faster you need to get the f* out of IT. Listen, I am a software developer. I work on applications for oil companies, brokerage firms and large energy companies with project budgets larger than CCP's annual income. Coding accounts for <40% of our time. Most of it is is investigation, design, approval, mockup, approval, (then coding), then unit tests, then fixing, then unit tests again, then QA pass, then staging release, then more QA tests, then full integration tests, then production release planning, then the production mock release, then (finally) the production release. They are on a 1 month agile release cycle which means 1 week of investigation, design, approval. Then a 2 week sprint of coding. Then 1 week of QA, integration testing and release. And that's if everything works out perfectly. If they find a nasty bug then they miss the release and make it to the next one. Throwing money at a problem helps to bring on more resources to spread out work. But suddenly adding 10 more programmers wont speed things up, in fact (most times) it slows things down as you need to dedicate man hours to training the new resources and deal with the bugs they will introduce due to not being familiar with the code. Eventually they will get up to speed, but even then you'll probably run into the problem of "too many hands in the cookie jar" which causes you to have to divvy up tasks into micro-projects which causes a nightmare with code merges / task management. - You yell when CCP doesn't tell you what's coming in the next patch. - Then when they do tell you whats coming you yell when it's delayed due to it being buggy and scream "release it anyway". - Then when they do release it anyway you yell that they don't know what they're doing and the new feature is broken and shouldn't have been released. - Then they don't tell you and you yell but they ignore you because no matter what they do you're going to yell. So for everyone commenting here who doesn't work as a programmer, shut up. I don't come into your workplace and tell you how to flip burgers faster... You'll never see me complaining about something that gets added and "shouldn't have been released yet". Just saying. I think the majority of people are with me, that the risk of buggy or unpolished content is not nearly as bad as stagnation at this point. I'm not saying game crashing, PS3 melting bugs are okay, but there is a certain balance here where perfection is not worth the wait. What if they had chosen not to release 1.4 because of the squad deployment bug? Imagining that they knew about it to some degree, would waiting till yesterday to release patch 1.4 really have been worth it? Or more likely another couple days to match their downtime schedules. I'd say probably not. Really, how many flame threads were there about the Matchmaking glich, or the shotgun glich, or the squad deploy glich on patch day. People were threatening bodily harm over that stuff. CCP fixed it within three days but there was a literal ststorm on the forums of mouthbreathing tards who wanting nothing more than to flame out CCP for failing as a company. Of course that reception makes them want to release buggy releases in the future. Of course. No, they want to make sure it is perfect. Because the mob of idiots here will lynch them if it isn't perfect. People need to grow up and stop expecting this game to get a major "Jesus feature" (to quote another thread) every month. They will try but with a 2 week code sprint they can only do so much. Some months will be awesome. Others will be lackluster. But there will be releases every month and the game will keep moving forward.
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 347	Posted - 2013.09.19 15:45:00 - [7] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Point is, we're more efficient at finding bugs than CCP anyways. If we wait for CCP to find and squash all bugs before a release, then we'd be waiting an extra month or more. Besides that, we're still going to get bugs anyways. So, use the playerbase, AKA beta testers to test anything resembling functional and then patch it up after. I used to think a separate, real, beta server would be a waste of resources. But at this point it's looking like the best idea. I do agree on the separate beta server. So does CCP. However, Sony doesn't. So until the time that CCP can convince Sony to let them release a Beta Client they're stuck with internal and production only.
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 347	Posted - 2013.09.19 16:06:00 - [8] - Quote scuba678 wrote: If the steak comes out wrong and it takes too long an then i make a crusty comment about how long it takes...believe me they aint paying...Maybe we should make people pay first and then screw em later...seems like a good buisness model ehh??maybe for a video game. Just ask your team leader at burger king about it I,m sure he will teach you a thing or too At first I was willing to believe you managed a restaurant. But now, not believing it as much. I hate the be the "grammar police" but my god what is it with forums that makes people so incapable of capitalizing their f*ing I's and using proper spelling / punctuation. As for your "argument" no. The customer paying, and then being screwed later, is a poor business model. However I do not understand how this applies to CCP or DUST since this is a free, let me underline that for you again, free to play game. So it could be s* not worthy of anyone's time and you still didn't lose a dime for it. Also, I bet if you were giving away free steaks and some brat was making a scene about the quality of steak you were serving and why weren't they USDA Prime cuts you'd tell him to shove off. He's not paying you for the steak. You don't need him sitting around everyone else moaning about how crappy your service is when you're serving him a free meal.
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 347	Posted - 2013.09.19 16:16:00 - [9] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: CCP FoxFour wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: ~Racial variants of all vehicles. ~New turret types ~A respec for vehicle users ~Dropship cloaking ~A new vehicle type ~The promise that with each introduction of new racial variants, partial respecs will be offered since CCP decided to release Dust without over half of it's content. These would be a good reason for having to wait another month. Out of curiosity, how long do you think each one of those line items would take in terms of man hours? Couple seconds. :P New turrets and drop ship cloaking will be the hardest of the bunch. 200 man hours each if all goes well unknown if things go to hell. Racial varient of all vehicles. I think that would be the easiest. You have the sockets built. just creating a graphical design around the sockets might be hard means you develop the track systems differently so around 100-150 per new race around 200-300 for both amar and. new vehicle types not needed. No. Dropship cloaking alone is more than 200 hours. You're looking at a new art effect (cloak shimmer) which means 1 artist for 1 week (40 hours) minimum. New icons which means a UI artist for 2 - 3 days (24 hours) minimum. 3 to 4 developers (1 for data layer, 1+ for mid layer, 1 for engine) for 2 weeks (240 - 320 hours) minimum. 2 QA testers (1 for data / mid layer, 1 for engine / ui) for 1 week (80 hours). Unknown bugs. So that's roughly 400 - 480 hours of work for dropship cloaking alone and doesn't include design, documentation, approval, integration and playtesting. You divide that up among 10 guys and that's still over a month for one feature. This stuff takes a lot longer than bang head on keyboard for 3 days = dropship cloaking.
Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 347	Posted - 2013.09.19 16:31:00 - [10] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: completely tangential but that sort of breaks down if it was a "pay what you want" deal. Where someone actually paid. To be fair many people have paid CCP for this game, and sure, they Could tell those customers to shove off, but really it'd not in anyone's interest to be rude like that. Back to the topic at hand, as a software developer you are aware of real world constraints. Of which deadlines are a large factor. You can't spend 100 years writing the perfect software for a customer who has long since died or gone bankrupt. Time for CCP does not translate as finitely as a deadline, but there is certainly a number. Invisible, somewhere in this deterministic universe there is a point at which the game could fail for lack of delivering content X by time Y. Hard to pinpoint but hard to ignore. The signs do not look good, and something has to give. There is also the possibility of a game being sustained, but still a failed success. Look at how many MMO's in the past couple years even have released with such high potential, only to crash down instantly. Many resorting to FTP models after that, and some simply dying. If the best Dust can hope to do is struggle along, barely scraping by enough players to break even then it's as good as dead. Ok, you've got a head on your shoulders and are right. I am not saying this game is perfect. Or that CCP should go back to biannual releases where the entire thing is perfect. Big stuff needs to change, and it will (hopefully next month). However, the point of issue I am having is with the mob of idiots who froth at the mouth for information on upcoming releases, then when the get it froth at the mouth again when said releases are pushed back due to them being incomplete. It's this attitude that makes developers use the much hated Soon(tm) timeframe. Because the mob can't seem to grasp the simple concept that, in software development, nothing is concrete. Bugs happen, code breaks, and other tasks become higher priority. Things get pushed back or re imagined, or shelved for a myriad of reasons. So, if we want CCP to tell us things like release dates or what will be coming soon we can't scream like immature children when they get pushed back. These dates / deliverables are estimates. They even present them as estimates but the mob writes "X item (confirmed)" a million times and then expects it as a promise and screams about how CCP lied to them when it doesn't happen that month.

Severus Smith Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 348	Posted - 2013.09.19 18:45:00 - [11] - Quote scuba678 wrote: The customer is always right......I didnt invent that statement...it has existed for many years.....no matter what you say it will be and its being said for a reason. Any buisness that does not follow this simple guideline will fall to the competion who does. Your gonna call me on grammer and Capitalization..spelling?really...im busy trying to AFK farm 3 characters right now and out of al the tasks I'm handling right now having a conversation with somebody who is very clearly not thinking withlogic is not high enough priority for spelling and grammer I didnt even realize that i was posting with my alt right now...but for the record...I am challenging you to a fight with my main -me and you in a squad(no marking or orbitals) Most WP wins 10 million from the other...and loser posts no more on this thread... Everybody see's this so go ahead let me know where and when Lets see how confident you are with your 600,000 sp and your free fits oO Well now everyone, s*** just got real. He went and got his pullups in a twist and now is calling down a fight with his main! Forget logic and intelligence; video games are the ultimate argument decider! Yeah... I'm gonna decline. I'm busy at work right now, and tonight I have plans with my wife; so I'll leave you to take your childish virtual duels elsewhere. As for the grammar part, I'll admit that was a low point on my part. I removed it from my OP a minute after I posted it. Unfortunately for me someone snagged it in a quote before I hit the submit edit button. Apologies. I still don't get why people don't use better grammar on forums (or emails and text messages) but it was low to call you out specifically on it. Back on topic: I wish people would stop and just think about these requests and realize that they aren't easy or quick to make. Hence CCP FoxFours question.

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