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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
682
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
I keep seeing some state that weapons with a high RoF are "hitscan" weapons.
Hitscan means there is an invisible line, and if you cross the path of this line you automatically take damage.
When you are being shot, you may notice some bullets flying past you because of dispersion, while some of the bullets are landing, it means you are not being shot with a "hitscan weapon"
"hitscan weapon":
Laser Rifle
Not "hitscan weapons":
AR ScR ScP SMG HMG
For these weapons to do any damage the projectile actually has to hit you.
AoE Weapons.
For these weapons to do any damage the projectile or splash actually has to hit you.
You're welcome! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
683
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zekain K wrote:Actually all the weapons you listed are hit scan. You really have no idea what hits can is. I know exactly what hitscan is.
With hitscan weapons, when an object is detected in the path of the projectile, a hit is registered. Since the effect is immediate, the projectiles effectively travel at infinite speed and have a linear or otherwise simple trajectory
ie: you cross the path of the weapon, you get hit. My observation is that this is not how weapons in dust work, except of course the laser rifle. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:what yoru seeing is an ANIMATION
its not bullets missing, its the animation of the bullets, it doesnt change
it is the bullets missing. I have noticed, that when moving, you can be hit by the dispersed projectiles as well as the accurately placed projectiles.
Also, when taking damage, it is not constant. You can watch your health drop with each bullet that successfully finds it's target even when you get hit multiple times in succession with every round fired at you. It is not a constant drop in HP until you are not in your opponent's crosshairs, as it would be with a hitscan weapon.
It is even more noticeable now, with the sound effect of getting hit. Every time you hear a plink your health drops a bit more. It is also readily apparent if you have managed to dodge sniper fire. You can see the projectile traveling. You can be in the sniper's crosshair when he fires, but still avoid the damage if you move out of the way fast enough. If it was a hitscan weapon, as soon as he pulled the trigger, you would take damage. There would be no avoiding it. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Zekain K wrote:Actually all the weapons you listed are hit scan. You really have no idea what hits can is. I know exactly what hitscan is. With hitscan weapons, when an object is detected in the path of the projectile, a hit is registered. Since the effect is immediate, the projectiles effectively travel at infinite speed and have a linear or otherwise simple trajectory ie: you cross the path of the weapon, you get hit. My observation is that this is not how weapons in dust work, except of course the laser rifle. if you basic your conclusion off of the fact that ocasionally bullets miss then i would like to point you to the "accuracy" stat of the weapons. they have a built in failure rate, wich the laser rifle does not have. this is to adjust for the point and hit nature of hitscan, making the weapons feel closer to a spray weapon. also note that you dont "see" every bullet that comes out of a gun, thats how we know its an animation and not a representation of how the gun is actually functioning what exactly are you going to do if a dev comes in here and goes "lol yup its hitscan"??? You can see the tracers of the projectiles. You can see the beam of the ScR and ScP. You can see them following behind eachother in rapid succession. You can see the SR projectiles, you can see the tracers on the HMG and SMG. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
It is also much more noticeable the farther you are away from the person shooting at you. This is because the projectiles have to travel to hit you. If it was hitscan this would not happen. You would simply get hit as soon as the weapon is fired.
When at range, I can literally see the rounds from AR's flying at me, when they reach me I get hit, then I can see the next round coming, when it reaches me, I get hit. This is not hitscan. This is ballistics. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vexen Arc wrote:What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
To an extent, yes. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Here's what I want to know: Forge Gun, hitscan or not hitscan?
I use the thing on a daily basis, but I can't decide. It seems to be instant death for infantry, but requires leading for LAVs and Dropships. Not hit scan. The projectile has an actual travel time. You can watch the projectile travel to target, then hit. The damage to the target is not done until the projectile makes contact. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
ladwar wrote:Dexter307 wrote:OP dosent know what he's talking about clearly Then try to prove me wrong instead of just being a troll. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 19:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
ladwar wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:ladwar wrote:Dexter307 wrote:OP dosent know what he's talking about clearly Then try to prove me wrong instead of just being a troll. don't have to, just look up there is plenty of others telling you and why. Just look up there, I countered their arguments, where are they now? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:Saxbrin Shain wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Just look up there, I countered their arguments, where are they now? Laughing. i can confirm i laughed restating your opinion isnt a counter. its the equivilant of screaming "im right im right im right!!!!!!!" I didn't simply restate my opinion as you say. I offered evidence refuting other people's opinions.
Go ahead and laugh too, i don't really care.
Until a DEV actually says that it is indeed hitscan, I'm of the opinion it is not. I have stated my reasoning for this opinion.
Everyone on here ridiculing me for my opinion, which I have offered strong evidence to support, has shown absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it is hitscan. You are simply assuming that it is because other games (not all games) use hitscan.
So yea, go ahead and laugh it up. |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Musta Tornius wrote:I've spoken to Wolfman before about this or similar issue and he did confirm what everyone else has said. But it's quite good when you can't tell easily, eh?! Mission accomplished. Link? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:I've seen a long-range Scrambler Rifle projectile heading towards me and dodged to the side, watching the projectile.
It disappeared when it reached the point my head HAD been when it was fired, with the same graphical effect as you get when a Scrambler shot hits.
I lost more than half my Scout suit's shields.
Pretty sure it's hitscan. Will laugh if a dev posts here, because they WILL confirm the weapons are hitscan. I'm pretty sure the AR being hitscan was mentioned in an early devblog, but it's been a LOOONG time since I looked at anything that far back. Pretty sure that is called Lag. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:
several people have givin you evidence PROVING its an animation.
people have posted countless links and tryed to reason with you.
you havnt actually refuted any arguments...
your just saying NUH-UNH but with more words.
What evidence? Show me the evidence that it is simply animation.
If you are referring to the wikipedia, this came from the same page:
Quote:Visually representing the firing effect of a hitscan weapon can be difficult - since the weapon hits its target instantaneously, any bullet or projectile that comes from the weapon is merely a 'ghost', and where it lands may not necessarily represent its actual hit. In particular, a projectile bullet effect will always lag behind the effect of its hit, a problem which can be compounded by internet latency in online multiplayer gaming.
The hitscan method also precludes ballistics, as it cannot simulate any kind of movement other than a straight line, such as a parabolic arc or atmospheric resistance (including wind direction).
With advances in processing and internet bandwidth, it has become more practical to simulate the ballistic nature of real-world firearms in real-time games by using a more realistic "projectile" model, spawning bullets as actual game objects with mass and velocity and continuously simulating them until they reach their target.
People have stated their opinion that it is animation.
I stated my opinion that it is more than animation, and offered evidence to support my claim.
You're just saying NUH-UNH but with less words. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
686
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Musta Tornius wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Musta Tornius wrote:I've spoken to Wolfman before about this or similar issue and he did confirm what everyone else has said. But it's quite good when you can't tell easily, eh?! Mission accomplished. Link? IRC and I haven't kept logs, you'd have to ask Nova Knife or Heinz D. to dig up logs. Another thing about the Laser, it fires in pulses. I used it for many months so got got intimate (:P) with it. If you swiped a person fast enough you could avoid damaging them as one of the pulses wasn't aimed at them even if they crossed the beam. So then, it isn't hitscan?
Because, if it was hitscan, as soon as you held the trigger, if someone was in your sights, you would deal damage, right?
Just like if the AR was hitscan, no matter how fast you swipe your reticule over your target, you would do damage, right?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't happen in DUST, does it?
So then, our guns actually fire projectiles, right? These projectiles have actual travel time. That is very apparent if you are shot from an AR, for example, outside of its effective range.
Granted, these weapons don't have complete ballistic model, as pointed out by the gentleman above, but they also aren't hitscan weapons. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
692
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 21:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Musta Tornius wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Musta Tornius wrote:I've spoken to Wolfman before about this or similar issue and he did confirm what everyone else has said. But it's quite good when you can't tell easily, eh?! Mission accomplished. Link? IRC and I haven't kept logs, you'd have to ask Nova Knife or Heinz D. to dig up logs. Another thing about the Laser, it fires in pulses. I used it for many months so got got intimate (:P) with it. If you swiped a person fast enough you could avoid damaging them as one of the pulses wasn't aimed at them even if they crossed the beam. So then, it isn't hitscan? Because, if it was hitscan, as soon as you held the trigger, if someone was in your sights, you would deal damage, right? Just like if the AR was hitscan, no matter how fast you swipe your reticule over your target, you would do damage, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't happen in DUST, does it? . yoru not taking into account rate of fire. for what your thinking to be true weapons would all have to have a damage over time damage profile. instead it just has a timer built into the hitscan to keep track of the rate of fire for the weapon and apply damage at the apropriate invervals That is not hitscan. As I stated before, when you get shot from Long Range with an AR, you can feel each bullet hitting and dropping your HP as individual bullets, not a stead stream of damage.
Hitscan = steady consistent non intermittent HP drain.
This is not how DUST works.
As for your previous post, just because all bullets do not have an animation, does not make it Hitscan.
All of my steps do not make a sound, does that mean I'm not taking those steps?
The ScR does not do damage before it's beam reaches you. If that is what you see, you are delusional.
In DUST, sniper rifle's bullet travel time is a factor.
What about the shotgun? Is it hitscan or does it fire actual projectiles?
Is damage falloff an indicator of ballistics? I would thinks so.
It seams that DUST uses a partial ballistics model. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
692
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Hitscan = steady consistent non intermittent HP drain. So you don't know what hitscan means. Glad you finally confirmed it. I was a little confused about how exactly you were defining the term until you posted this. You're incorrectly applying a specific possible damage model as a requirement for hitscan, rather than actually understanding what a hit detection model entails. Whether hitscan is being used to trace a single line in a single instant and mark a target for a binary "yes/no" damage application, or used for a constant stream of damage, the method of determining the "hit" condition that mkes it hitscan. If there's a slow-moving stream of energy that creates an arc when you turn, and anything within the energy stream takes constant damage, that's NOT hitscan. If the game simulates bullets by tracing straight lines out from the weapon and applying damage any time one of those lines intersects with an enemy hitbox (or a friendly one if FF is on), that's hitscan. It doesn't trace a line and keep that line in place, or shake it around a bit and apply a tiny amount of damage every time. It traces a line that doesn't stay in place, then traces another line for the next bullet, and each time one of those lines touches a valid hitbox, it applies damage to the target. well said. i think this clears up some of the confusion as to what hitscan is and why were looking atyou a little funny. were simply using different definitions for hitscan, ours being backed by actual referances.
Everything I have stated, was backed either by my own experiences or by references.
If you cannot think of any other way to discuss this other than the condescending tone you have taken, then leave my thread. As much as you would love to think otherwise you don't know everything. Most of what you have said is completely baseless, unless you want to count other people's posts as your "references"
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
692
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 22:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote: doesn't trace a line and keep that line in place, or shake it around a bit and apply a tiny amount of damage every time. It traces a line that doesn't stay in place, then traces another line for the next bullet, and each time one of those lines touches a valid hitbox, it applies damage to the target. This is a bit more in depth definition of hitscan than any I have been able to find.
Basically what you are saying here, is that when you fire your weapon, multiple hitscan lines are produced. (one for each "bullet"?) Does each one of these hitscan lines have a beginning and end? How long are the hitscan lines?
Why is it that, when I get shot by an AR at range, the damage does not occure immediately? From everything I have read about hitscan, that is how it works. The damage is simultaneous with the pull of the trigger.
Do you see the questions this raises? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
692
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Everything I have stated, was backed either by my own experiences or by references.
If you cannot think of any other way to discuss this other than the condescending tone you have taken, then leave my thread. As much as you would love to think otherwise you don't know everything. Most of what you have said is completely baseless, unless you want to count other people's posts as your "references" EZMode reference courtesy of Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HitscanIt was posted earlier in the thread, but you should probably go back and actually read it. The page also cites a variety of examples that are described by actual game developers as hitscan. Care to provide a reference that contradicts that (correct) definition?
Quote:if an object is detected in the path of the projectile, a hit is registered. Since the effect is immediate, the projectiles effectively travel at infinite speed and have a linear or otherwise simple trajectory GÇö a practical approximation of a bullet's speed and accuracy over short distances (emphasis added)
From the Wikipedia page, which I did actually read. So this is saying that hitscan is pretty much simultaneous with trigger pull. Well, damage output in DUST is not simultaneous with trigger pull. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
692
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:then traces another line for the next bullet This is a bit more in depth definition of hitscan than any I have been able to find. Basically what you are saying here, is that when you fire your weapon, multiple hitscan lines are produced. (one for each "bullet"?) Does each one of these hitscan lines have a beginning and end? How long are the hitscan lines? Why is it that, when I get shot by an AR at range, the damage does not occure immediately? From everything I have read about hitscan, that is how it works. The damage is simultaneous with the pull of the trigger. Do you see the questions this raises? its one hitscan line that wobbles. thats what hes saying and its a single line that exsists for as long as you hold the trigger. each "bullet" you fire just changes teh state of the line from no damage, to damage think of it like a flashlight, for as long as you press the ON button it shines a blue light, and at a rate of 1000RPM it changes its color from blue to red. as long as two conditions are met damage is done theres a target in the beam, and the beam is in its red state. as for what your experiancing with the "no damage immediatly thing" its probable that the condition "target in beam" is not being met :P aka hes shooting but hasnt trained on you yet. Does this not mean more than one line? Maybe you are speaking a different kind of English than I am, but I was taught that the word "another" implied the existence of more than one. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
It turns out I was wrong, this time!
You have (mostly) all helped clear up the confusion here for me.
While it is hitscan, it is programmed in such a way that is is meant to mimic the way a real gun would fire, to an extent.
*Multiple hitscan lines to mimic dispersion and multiple projectiles
*Delayed initial damage output to mimic bullet travel time
*Intermittent damage output to mimic bullet travel time
Thanks guys! |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
693
|
Posted - 2013.09.05 23:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
These weapons still aren't beams of instant death, as some would try to lead you to believe. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
696
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:well i should now apologize for being a bit of an ass
lol no worries |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
696
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Master: +1 for being an adult and changing your thread title.
(I intend to reward every instance of rational, civil behavior I see on these forums.) Trying to set an example.
I learned a long time ago if you are proven wrong, you save face just simply admitting you were wrong. Insisting you are right when you run out of logical arguments simply makes you look like an immature foolish jackass! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
696
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 03:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zekain K wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Zekain K wrote:We aren't assuming anything, the devs saod those types of weapons were hits can because it was easier for the servers to process. Not every weapon is a jitscan weapon, but all the automatics, rifles, and the scrambler pistols, and smog are hit scan. Just so you know, we've already found the source of the problem, which was OP's misunderstanding of the term "hitscan", and he's not only admitted his mistake, but edited the OP and thread title to reflect his recognition of the mistake. You're late. But he's still wrong! Halo 4 does not have those three stupid things he listed, and it was a multi million dollar project. Holyshit it is literally just a strobe laser. THATS IT!
Nobody was talking about Halo 4, we were specifically talking about DUST 514. Halo 4 is irrelevant. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
698
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 11:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zekain K wrote:*Multiple hitscan lines to mimic dispersion and multiple projectiles
*Delayed initial damage output to mimic bullet travel time
*Intermittent damage output to mimic bullet travel time
THESE 3 THINGS DO NOT EXIST. Really now?
Do you have any evidence to support this?
I surely offered plenty evidence to support that they do. Even others who have posted in this thread seem to agree that they do. If you can support your statement, I would be more than happy to consider the evidence. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
698
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Zekain K wrote:*Multiple hitscan lines to mimic dispersion and multiple projectiles
*Delayed initial damage output to mimic bullet travel time
*Intermittent damage output to mimic bullet travel time
THESE 3 THINGS DO NOT EXIST. Really now? Do you have any evidence to support this? I surely offered plenty evidence to support that they do. Even others who have posted in this thread seem to agree that they do. If you can support your statement, I would be more than happy to consider the evidence. i can tell you weapons like snipers and ARs certainly dont have bulllet travel time. it is an instantaneous damage transferral, or however long it takes for the computing to happen and send you back a ding and the enemy a death lol At close range, it would seem like ARs do not. If you get shot at a distance, you can tell the bullets have travel time. Pay close attention next time you shoot at someone out of your range with your AR. (if you use one) |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
699
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Musta Tornius wrote:Another little tidbit for this thread that Wolfman told me. I was wondering whether large railguns fired projectiles or used hitscan. He said they were projectiles but he was considering changing them to hitscan as they were so fast anyway that it wouldn't have made a big difference. Interesting. I wonder if this also applies to the FG and Sniper rifle, as they are both semiauto railguns as well.
I'm positive the FG is not hitscan. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
699
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 12:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:your letting your brain play tricks on you because you keep leaning on what your eyes are seeing via the bullet animations rather than what is actually happening.
bullet animations are purely cosmetic and do not actually represent what your gun is doing aside from telling you if it is being fired or not. Actually, I am basing this off of how I receive damage from long range shots, not the animations. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
701
|
Posted - 2013.09.06 14:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Csikszent Mihalyi wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Lurchasaurus wrote:your letting your brain play tricks on you because you keep leaning on what your eyes are seeing via the bullet animations rather than what is actually happening.
bullet animations are purely cosmetic and do not actually represent what your gun is doing aside from telling you if it is being fired or not. Actually, I am basing this off of how I receive damage from long range shots, not the animations. But how can you do that? When you get shot, how do you know that the tracer you saw was from the bullet that hit you moments later, rather than a previous bullet. This would require some very deliberate testing to be sure. I think the fact that we generally don't notice bullet delays when shooting at something (other than the network latency) is much stronger evidence that no such delaying exists. Also it doesn't really make sense for a technical reason, which is a bit difficult to explain: If there is code which delays application of the damage based on distance, the hit detection would still have to be based on the initial scan (because that one tells you the distance to base the delay on). This means that even if the target then moves, it would still be hit with no chance to dodge the bullet. Why would CCP do that? And even if it's in the game for some reason, the actual relevance for gameplay would be close to nil anyway. Good point. It would definitely require some deliberate testing. Two players would have to be on coms, one says when he fires the other says when he gets hit. |
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