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Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
683
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Posted - 2013.09.05 19:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
what yoru seeing is an ANIMATION
its not bullets missing, its the animation of the bullets, it doesnt change
its a hitscan weapon, if it wasnt then you would see bullet travel time but its instant hit. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
685
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Posted - 2013.09.05 19:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Zekain K wrote:Actually all the weapons you listed are hit scan. You really have no idea what hits can is. I know exactly what hitscan is. With hitscan weapons, when an object is detected in the path of the projectile, a hit is registered. Since the effect is immediate, the projectiles effectively travel at infinite speed and have a linear or otherwise simple trajectory ie: you cross the path of the weapon, you get hit. My observation is that this is not how weapons in dust work, except of course the laser rifle.
if you basic your conclusion off of the fact that ocasionally bullets miss then i would like to point you to the "accuracy" stat of the weapons.
they have a built in failure rate, wich the laser rifle does not have.
this is to adjust for the point and hit nature of hitscan, making the weapons feel closer to a spray weapon.
also note that you dont "see" every bullet that comes out of a gun, thats how we know its an animation and not a representation of how the gun is actually functioning
what exactly are you going to do if a dev comes in here and goes "lol yup its hitscan"??? |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
693
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Posted - 2013.09.05 20:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:
You can see the tracers of the projectiles. You can see the beam of the ScR and ScP. You can see them following behind eachother in rapid succession. You can see the SR projectiles, you can see the tracers on the HMG and SMG.
its called an animation |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
695
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Posted - 2013.09.05 20:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Saxbrin Shain wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Just look up there, I countered their arguments, where are they now? Laughing.
i can confirm i laughed
restating your opinion isnt a counter.
its the equivilant of screaming "im right im right im right!!!!!!!" |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
696
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Posted - 2013.09.05 21:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Chances Ghost wrote:Saxbrin Shain wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Just look up there, I countered their arguments, where are they now? Laughing. i can confirm i laughed restating your opinion isnt a counter. its the equivilant of screaming "im right im right im right!!!!!!!" I didn't simply restate my opinion as you say. I offered evidence refuting other people's opinions. Go ahead and laugh too, i don't really care. Until a DEV actually says that it is indeed hitscan, I'm of the opinion it is not. I have stated my reasoning for this opinion. Everyone on here ridiculing me for my opinion, which I have offered strong evidence to support, has shown absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it is hitscan. You are simply assuming that it is because other games (not all games) use hitscan. So yea, go ahead and laugh it up.
several people have givin you evidence PROVING its an animation.
people have posted countless links and tryed to reason with you.
you havnt actually refuted any arguments...
your just saying NUH-UNH but with more words. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
698
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Posted - 2013.09.05 21:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Chances Ghost wrote:
several people have givin you evidence PROVING its an animation.
people have posted countless links and tryed to reason with you.
you havnt actually refuted any arguments...
your just saying NUH-UNH but with more words.
What evidence? Show me the evidence that it is simply animation. If you are referring to the wikipedia, this came from the same page: Quote:Visually representing the firing effect of a hitscan weapon can be difficult - since the weapon hits its target instantaneously, any bullet or projectile that comes from the weapon is merely a 'ghost', and where it lands may not necessarily represent its actual hit. In particular, a projectile bullet effect will always lag behind the effect of its hit, a problem which can be compounded by internet latency in online multiplayer gaming.
The hitscan method also precludes ballistics, as it cannot simulate any kind of movement other than a straight line, such as a parabolic arc or atmospheric resistance (including wind direction).
With advances in processing and internet bandwidth, it has become more practical to simulate the ballistic nature of real-world firearms in real-time games by using a more realistic "projectile" model, spawning bullets as actual game objects with mass and velocity and continuously simulating them until they reach their target. People have stated their opinion that it is animation. I stated my opinion that it is more than animation, and offered evidence to support my claim. You're just saying NUH-UNH but with less words.
theres no bullet travel time not all bullets are animated bullets that miss animation wise manage to hit damage is instant and direct point and shoot, the only difference between a laser rifle and an AR is recoil and accuracy (wich in hit scan means that your little beam of death wobbles behind the scenes by a certain variable based ont he accuracy rating)
the scrabler rifle is better for testing because it has two different fire modes and weapon types.
for the regular one every shot is animated, and while you can see every projectile the damage is done when the projectile animation starts, rather then when it hits an enamy.
thats your first clue that its hit scan.
this effect is also pronounced in the assault scrambler as well, except in that case not all of the projectiles are animated.
what we end up with is a visual effet of projectiles traveling, but the projectiles themselves are not whats doing damage, they can miss animation wise and yet still do damage.
what your saying is that most projectiles are invisable.
the lazer rifle gives us a good view of what the hitscan mechanic looks like programming wise.
int he case of AR/SR/ASR this beam is invisable and wobbles slightly in its rested state (accuracy) and wobbles even more from recoil as you fire in the case of the assault rifle.
for the game to calculate each invididual projectile independantly for every shot in the game would take massive amounts of computing power on the PS3 side of things.
the only AR like wepapon ive seen in games liek this that doesnt use hitscan would be sniper rifles in wich bullet drop and travel time are a factor.
the defining proof that its hitscan would be that you recieve damage from a weapon before its animation actually reaches you, and every single person can test this with a friend and see that.
you have states you dont believe that its a hitscan weapon, but you havnt actually put any thought into what mechanics you think its using, your just walking around stating what it isnt, without stating what it is.
its hard to definitivly counter a point like that because your not actually putting anything testable out there that can be definitably proven wrong, it amounts to a baseless and uninformed opiion thats worded so vaugely that all we can do is try to tell you WHY we know its a hitscan weapon. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
698
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Posted - 2013.09.05 21:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Musta Tornius wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Musta Tornius wrote:I've spoken to Wolfman before about this or similar issue and he did confirm what everyone else has said. But it's quite good when you can't tell easily, eh?! Mission accomplished. Link? IRC and I haven't kept logs, you'd have to ask Nova Knife or Heinz D. to dig up logs. Another thing about the Laser, it fires in pulses. I used it for many months so got got intimate (:P) with it. If you swiped a person fast enough you could avoid damaging them as one of the pulses wasn't aimed at them even if they crossed the beam. So then, it isn't hitscan? Because, if it was hitscan, as soon as you held the trigger, if someone was in your sights, you would deal damage, right? Just like if the AR was hitscan, no matter how fast you swipe your reticule over your target, you would do damage, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't happen in DUST, does it? .
yoru not taking into account rate of fire.
for what your thinking to be true weapons would all have to have a damage over time damage profile.
instead it just has a timer built into the hitscan to keep track of the rate of fire for the weapon and apply damage at the apropriate invervals |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
702
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Posted - 2013.09.05 22:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote: That is not hitscan. As I stated before, when you get shot from Long Range with an AR, you can feel each bullet hitting and dropping your HP as individual bullets, not a stead stream of damage.
Hitscan = steady consistent non intermittent HP drain.
it CAN be a steady consistant stream like you say, but it doesnt HAVE to be.
think of it like a blue flashlight that turns red in accordance to rate of fire. yes this is possable, yes this is done, yes this is the common way hitscan is implemented with ROF weapons.
Master Jaraiya wrote: This is not how DUST works.
the evidence shows otherwise
Master Jaraiya wrote: As for your previous post, just because all bullets do not have an animation, does not make it Hitscan.
All of my steps do not make a sound, does that mean I'm not taking those steps?
your character isnt actually taking steps, so yes it does mean your not taking steps.
yoru character is a camera floating around at eye level, your gun on your screen is animated different then it shows for others on their screen and so on.
Master Jaraiya wrote: The ScR does not do damage before it's beam reaches you. If that is what you see, you are delusional.
say what you will but anyone else in this thread that wants to test that can see that it DOES do damage at the begining of its animation, its a testable and very repeatable result
Master Jaraiya wrote: In DUST, sniper rifle's bullet travel time is a factor.
It seams that DUST uses a partial ballistics model.
i rarely use snipers (militia only) but in my experiance its always been instant and have yet to experiance travel time outside of instances that are better explained by lag, i pull the trigger when the marker is red and it hits ive never had to lead a target
can you provide a link describing said model so we may analyse it? my google foo has failed me and only brings up pages related to theoretical physics |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
702
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Posted - 2013.09.05 22:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:Hitscan = steady consistent non intermittent HP drain. So you don't know what hitscan means. Glad you finally confirmed it. I was a little confused about how exactly you were defining the term until you posted this. You're incorrectly applying a specific possible damage model as a requirement for hitscan, rather than actually understanding what a hit detection model entails. Whether hitscan is being used to trace a single line in a single instant and mark a target for a binary "yes/no" damage application, or used for a constant stream of damage, the method of determining the "hit" condition that mkes it hitscan. If there's a slow-moving stream of energy that creates an arc when you turn, and anything within the energy stream takes constant damage, that's NOT hitscan. If the game simulates bullets by tracing straight lines out from the weapon and applying damage any time one of those lines intersects with an enemy hitbox (or a friendly one if FF is on), that's hitscan. It doesn't trace a line and keep that line in place, or shake it around a bit and apply a tiny amount of damage every time. It traces a line that doesn't stay in place, then traces another line for the next bullet, and each time one of those lines touches a valid hitbox, it applies damage to the target.
well said.
i think this clears up some of the confusion as to what hitscan is and why were looking atyou a little funny.
were simply using different definitions for hitscan, ours being backed by actual referances. |
Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
706
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Posted - 2013.09.05 22:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote: doesn't trace a line and keep that line in place, or shake it around a bit and apply a tiny amount of damage every time. It traces a line that doesn't stay in place, then traces another line for the next bullet, and each time one of those lines touches a valid hitbox, it applies damage to the target. This is a bit more in depth definition of hitscan than any I have been able to find. Basically what you are saying here, is that when you fire your weapon, multiple hitscan lines are produced. (one for each "bullet"?) Does each one of these hitscan lines have a beginning and end? How long are the hitscan lines? Why is it that, when I get shot by an AR at range, the damage does not occure immediately? From everything I have read about hitscan, that is how it works. The damage is simultaneous with the pull of the trigger. Do you see the questions this raises?
its one hitscan line that wobbles. thats what hes saying
and its a single line that exsists for as long as you hold the trigger.
each "bullet" you fire just changes teh state of the line from no damage, to damage |
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Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
715
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Posted - 2013.09.06 02:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
well i should now apologize for being a bit of an ass
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Chances Ghost
Inf4m0us
718
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Posted - 2013.09.06 03:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Disturbingly Bored wrote:Master: +1 for being an adult and changing your thread title.
(I intend to reward every instance of rational, civil behavior I see on these forums.) Trying to set an example. I learned a long time ago if you are proven wrong, you save face just simply admitting you were wrong. Insisting you are right when you run out of logical arguments simply makes you look like an immature foolish jackass!
props, i diddnt give you enough credit.
now i will for sure. |
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