DUST Search - Effects of deactivated "squad vision"

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Keeriam Miray wrote:

no -_- you non believers... skills are working with BASE numbers of suit, not some base + ramdom skills YOU LIKE.
if it works like you think, then by skilling up it in particular way you can have more scan range than some other person... so two ramdom gk.0 with maxed skill will have different scan range.

Uhhh... no. Not true. You might want to test some really basic numbers and prove yourself wrong.

Assuming the game uses one specific skill first, then the other, and doesn't just apply the largest skill first to avoid this problem, lets take a look with an example:

Lets imagine that one player has the Long Range Scanning skill maxed (+50%) and Gallente Scout skill at level 4 (+40%).
Now another player thinks "If I skill up my Scout skill to max first, it'll give me more benefit" and does that (+50%), THEN upgrades the Long Range Scanning skill to level 4 (+40%).

Both players have a +40% and a +50% modifier applied to their scan range.

10 + 50% = 15
15 + 40% = 21

10 + 40% = 14
14 + 50% = 21

You'll notice that no matter which skill is trained to max first, or which skill is applied first, the results are precisely identical, because adding a series of percentage increases always works that way. Not only is this the way EVE Online handles skills, but it's been tested and confirmed in DUST across several updates in both Chromosome and Uprising.

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Frank Olson Usul DUST University Ivy League 8	Posted - 2013.09.02 14:46:00 - [31] - Quote Surt gods end wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: As a Shotgun Scout, I'm very worried about this change. Your kidding? As a shotgun scout.. I can't wait. I'm already the ghost of the field. dying only cause of that team vision. now tho... hahahaha!! He was using something they call "irony" on Melmac.
Tek Hound Death In Xcess Corporation 46	Posted - 2013.09.02 14:52:00 - [32] - Quote Love it, wished they did this before I spec out of scout.
Yan Darn DUST University Ivy League 46	Posted - 2013.09.02 17:40:00 - [33] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: It should makes all scan related skills and mods more useful as well. Was thinking the same. Although this feels more like a "stick" rather than a "carrot." At the very least it should be interesting to see how things play out. Definitely stick. I suppose at this point it's easier to take away from the current system rather than try to add/modify it. If we are completely optimistic, we can hope this is actually part of a longer term plan involving scanning/sensors and...scouts!
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3880	Posted - 2013.09.02 17:43:00 - [34] - Quote /sharpens nova knives
Aleksander Black Immortal Retribution 47	Posted - 2013.09.02 18:42:00 - [35] - Quote I'm really hoping these changes turn the Scouts into the formidable assassins they are meant to be. And the best thing is that if this really turn out this way you guys can't really be nerfed anymore. You don't have HP, don't have PG, neither CPU, what are they going to take from you? Your sidearm? They can't nerf your player skill. Now, when the average AR assault guy gets killed by a scout in a dark corner he will know that it's his fault. He shouldn't be wondering in those dark alleys and now he will fear those guys with less than 100 ehp that come from the shadows in your radar and kill you before your rifle can even start shooting asking for help. He will be ashamed to come to the forums claim that they are OP because, hey, they can be killed so easy as long as you spot them in time. As long as you spot them... Generally speaking, these changes end up adding value to anything Scan related, or the so called Electronic Warfare (EW). Think about the skills: the base radius stat for your scan is 10m, but it can go up to 15 just with skills, and realistically some 13 without a too big investment. That's in radius, that's some considerable area since the increase is in all directions. With lvl 4 in precision you can detect other medium suits (55 base - 12% = 48,4 <50) without any module, but you can counter that training a couple lvls to lower your scan profile yourself. If you can dedicate a single high slot to buff your radar precision in a medium suit you can pick up any other regular medium suit in that radius, and sometimes now that may be better than some random shield nonsense that you can stick with your leftover status in an armor tanked suit. Skills, modules and equipment all are more attractive and if they became really worth using, even if only in specific conditions, this change will have achieved something really good giving EW much more depth and consequence in the game. This is what I want to see, people so scared from the unknown that they start finding some space to fit those modules, or the courage/skill to go without. This would prove that these changes made a good difference beyond only the scouts turf,
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3476	Posted - 2013.09.02 18:59:00 - [36] - Quote Actually, with Gallente Scout skills, you can get your scan radius above 15m on that suit - but ONLY that suit. Add mods and it's possible to break 30m scan radius.
Doc Noah Algintal Core Gallente Federation 498	Posted - 2013.09.02 19:14:00 - [37] - Quote From the sound of it, they're just removing passive suit scan sharing and not active scanning like spotting with your crosshair (although they are narrowing crosshair spotting by a lot). I hope CCP doesnt make the radar completely useless unless you have a scanner in your squad.
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 1007	Posted - 2013.09.02 19:24:00 - [38] - Quote Considering that i hardly never look at the radar... and i relieve in sounds, tactical awareness, and what i can see... I honestly don't care.
Cosgar ParagonX 4657	Posted - 2013.09.02 19:27:00 - [39] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: We Gallante have four eyes... I,am not worried in the slightest. (-_-) MYSTICAL THIRD EYE ACTIVATE (-*-) (=_GÇó) ....aw crap!
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster 865	Posted - 2013.09.03 13:22:00 - [40] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: We Gallante have four eyes... I,am not worried in the slightest. (-_-) MYSTICAL THIRD EYE ACTIVATE (-*-) (=_GÇó) ....aw crap! xD Also )l( Caldari?

Keeriam Miray Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2013.09.03 14:37:00 - [41] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Actually, with Gallente Scout skills, you can get your scan radius above 15m on that suit - but ONLY that suit. Add mods and it's possible to break 30m scan radius. 20m with maxed skills no mods, 56m max with 4 best range mods
J3f3r20n Gh057 Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 63	Posted - 2013.09.03 14:44:00 - [42] - Quote CCP did that to force you to skill into Scanners. you have to use it.
Wraith 2Logi Ultramarine Corp 3	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:04:00 - [43] - Quote Good thing. Active scanners work great, not only light up enemies but also give a red glow for a while. Bad thing, as a Logi I can be running right beside you and not realise your armour needs repairs, on the plus to repairing though, seems to have fixed the bug with the repair gun. Need more games to confirm.
Toby Flenderson research lab The Superpowers 3	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:05:00 - [44] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Maybe Light Frame suits should get that Scan Radius buff we've been asking for since forever ago, and Scouts should get a "passive scanning lights targets up for squadmates" special ability on top of the advantages already provided? I think either of these would help balance the scout suit. The scan radius bonus would be enough in my book but the passive scanning bonus is also a good suggestion (if someone else suggested it first somewhere then I apologize). At first I thought it might be a little much but with the way they seem to be trying to force squads to work together it would make a scout an extremely valuable addition to any squad. I recently started investing some time/sp so I'm not a committed scout (yet?) but I still think even from the view of an assault/logi user that either of these suggestions would balance out the scout suit pretty well.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 349	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:07:00 - [45] - Quote Came expecting sniper tears, left pleasantly surprised (if not with a bit of a headache..)
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1355	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:13:00 - [46] - Quote Keeriam Miray wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Actually, with Gallente Scout skills, you can get your scan radius above 15m on that suit - but ONLY that suit. Add mods and it's possible to break 30m scan radius. 20m with maxed skills no mods, 56m max with 4 best range mods Gallente scout makes sense when combined with the squad play style of all Gallente.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3509	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:29:00 - [47] - Quote Keeriam Miray wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Actually, with Gallente Scout skills, you can get your scan radius above 15m on that suit - but ONLY that suit. Add mods and it's possible to break 30m scan radius. 20m with maxed skills no mods, 56m max with 4 best range mods I was so not thinking when I wrote that. It's actually 22.5m with no mods though. The skills don't add the way you're adding them. You don't do 50% + 50% = 100% then follow with 10 + 100% = 20. 10 + 50% = 15 15 + 50% = 22.5 Now add modules
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3509	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:34:00 - [48] - Quote J3f3r20n Gh057 wrote: CCP did that to force you to skill into Scanners. you have to use it. Which means a Scout has to pour almost all of our CPU and PG into our equipment slot, leaving us about the same speed as a moderately-buffed Assault, and far slower than a Logi who can carry a Scanner AND other equipment as well as the required speed modules to outpace a Scout, and still with more HP than the Scout has. If you fit a Scout to be a Scout, they literally have ZERO advantages beyond stamina over the other suits now. At least before this nerf, we could have passive scanning as an option and be a sneaky behind-lines SCOUT in a SCOUT suit. And in spite of that, our own near-invisibility makes me not so angry about the whole thing. I like being invisible. If I just keep in mind to kill the enemy Scout first, I'll be fine, because he's the only one who can draw attention to me.
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1356	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:37:00 - [49] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: J3f3r20n Gh057 wrote: CCP did that to force you to skill into Scanners. you have to use it. Which means a Scout has to pour almost all of our CPU and PG into our equipment slot, leaving us about the same speed as a moderately-buffed Assault, and far slower than a Logi who can carry a Scanner AND other equipment as well as the required speed modules to outpace a Scout, and still with more HP than the Scout has. If you fit a Scout to be a Scout, they literally have ZERO advantages beyond stamina over the other suits now. At least before this nerf, we could have passive scanning as an option and be a sneaky behind-lines SCOUT in a SCOUT suit. And in spite of that, our own near-invisibility makes me not so angry about the whole thing. I like being invisible. If I just keep in mind to kill the enemy Scout first, I'll be fine, because he's the only one who can draw attention to me. If they can see who is coming and where they are coming from, then they shouldn't need the more than 50% speed advantage that they normally have with all of those speed enhancers.
Dheez STRONG-ARMED BANDITS 3	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:42:00 - [50] - Quote Surt gods end wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: As a Shotgun Scout, I'm very worried about this change. Your kidding? As a shotgun scout.. I can't wait. I'm already the ghost of the field. dying only cause of that team vision. now tho... hahahaha!! Not so fast, It seems the SG has been gimped.

Keeriam Miray Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:45:00 - [51] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Keeriam Miray wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Actually, with Gallente Scout skills, you can get your scan radius above 15m on that suit - but ONLY that suit. Add mods and it's possible to break 30m scan radius. 20m with maxed skills no mods, 56m max with 4 best range mods I was so not thinking when I wrote that. It's actually 22.5m with no mods though. The skills don't add the way you're adding them. You don't do 50% + 50% = 100% then follow with 10 + 100% = 20. 10 + 50% = 15 15 + 50% = 22.5 Now add modules no -_- you non believers... skills are working with BASE numbers of suit, not some base + ramdom skills YOU LIKE. if it works like you think, then by skiling up it in pacticular way you can have more scan range than some other person...
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1955	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:45:00 - [52] - Quote sammus420 wrote: It's stupid as **** that they're removing it. Remove team vision, sure. But squad vision? That's really stupid. Their reasoning is so that we'll have to communicate more, but that doesn't change how stupid it is. If they would add the commander mode they've said we'll be getting for over a year now, and gave the commander in the MCC team vision so that he could communicate redberry locations to everyone, I would be much, much happier with their decision. Might want to test the changes. According to the patch notes, all they removed was team vision and left squad vision in place. However, knowing CCP I wouldn't be surprised if squad vision was removed too
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3510	Posted - 2013.09.03 15:55:00 - [53] - Quote Keeriam Miray wrote: no -_- you non believers... skills are working with BASE numbers of suit, not some base + ramdom skills YOU LIKE. if it works like you think, then by skilling up it in particular way you can have more scan range than some other person... so two ramdom gk.0 with maxed skill will have different scan range. Uhhh... no. Not true. You might want to test some really basic numbers and prove yourself wrong. Assuming the game uses one specific skill first, then the other, and doesn't just apply the largest skill first to avoid this problem, lets take a look with an example: Lets imagine that one player has the Long Range Scanning skill maxed (+50%) and Gallente Scout skill at level 4 (+40%). Now another player thinks "If I skill up my Scout skill to max first, it'll give me more benefit" and does that (+50%), THEN upgrades the Long Range Scanning skill to level 4 (+40%). Both players have a +40% and a +50% modifier applied to their scan range. 10 + 50% = 15 15 + 40% = 21 10 + 40% = 14 14 + 50% = 21 You'll notice that no matter which skill is trained to max first, or which skill is applied first, the results are precisely identical, because adding a series of percentage increases always works that way.
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 254	Posted - 2013.09.03 16:06:00 - [54] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: the only issue I have is the loss of vision of your own team mates, beyond that I am happy with the change. You have no vision. Look at your helmet. Munch
Gunner's Money Transfer Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2013.09.03 16:11:00 - [55] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Keeriam Miray wrote: no -_- you non believers... skills are working with BASE numbers of suit, not some base + ramdom skills YOU LIKE. if it works like you think, then by skilling up it in particular way you can have more scan range than some other person... so two ramdom gk.0 with maxed skill will have different scan range. Uhhh... no. Not true. You might want to test some really basic numbers and prove yourself wrong. Assuming the game uses one specific skill first, then the other, and doesn't just apply the largest skill first to avoid this problem, lets take a look with an example: Lets imagine that one player has the Long Range Scanning skill maxed (+50%) and Gallente Scout skill at level 4 (+40%). Now another player thinks "If I skill up my Scout skill to max first, it'll give me more benefit" and does that (+50%), THEN upgrades the Long Range Scanning skill to level 4 (+40%). Both players have a +40% and a +50% modifier applied to their scan range. 10 + 50% = 15 15 + 40% = 21 10 + 40% = 14 14 + 50% = 21 You'll notice that no matter which skill is trained to max first, or which skill is applied first, the results are precisely identical, because adding a series of percentage increases always works that way. Not only is this the way EVE Online handles skills, but it's been tested and confirmed in DUST across several updates in both Chromosome and Uprising. Actually certain skills like Stamina which has two skills one of which increases the base stamina stacks with the other skill that increases stamina, such that the percentage increased on one skill is stacked because the percentage increased from the prior skill sets a new base value that the other skill works off of. This was the case when endurance and vigor were still in game in chromosome. If there are anyskills that effect the dropsuit base those are the skills you want to skill into and then additional skills do in fact stack on it because it treats the increased value as the base.
Keeriam Miray Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2013.09.03 16:56:00 - [56] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: but it's been tested and confirmed in DUST across several updates in both Chromosome and Uprising. Yeah that scheme works, but you do guessworks, only CCP can give us real numbers. I run passive scan gallente scout from CBT... some ppl believe that now, with maxed skills & 2 Cml Range Mods you will have 47-50m scan range. But i run this scout fit and can''t see enemy beyond 50m on my radar & the best thing i can pick up proto scouts that trying to get behind me, but this should not be possible with current game mechanic. Try to explain that... Last time Nestil was trying get behind me in ambush mod in gallente com. outpost. He & i know that nobody was able to see him coming from behind several buildings. I saw him coming on my radar 40m+ away, we did some short cqc shotgun fight, then i killed him with nade. Back in chromo my max scan range was 80m+ , now it's 56m max. I know how scan range works in Dust, no matter how it's supposed to be working, and i know that scan presicion is full of magic - not working as intended. Sometime i can pick up proto scout, sometime i can't pick up heavy in front of me, and i don't think there is ninja HMGs heavys with dampner modules.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3519	Posted - 2013.09.03 17:11:00 - [57] - Quote Keeriam Miray wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: but it's been tested and confirmed in DUST across several updates in both Chromosome and Uprising. Yeah that scheme works, but you do guessworks, only CCP can give us real numbers. I run passive scan gallente scout from CBT... some ppl believe that now, with maxed skills & 2 Cml Range Mods you will have 47-50m scan range. But i run this scout fit and can''t see enemy beyond 50m on my radar & the best thing i can pick up proto scouts that trying to get behind me, but this should not be possible with current game mechanic. Try to explain that... Last time Nestil was trying get behind me in ambush mod in gallente com. outpost. He & i know that nobody was able to see him coming from behind several buildings. I saw him coming on my radar 40m+ away, we did some short cqc shotgun fight, then i killed him with nade. Back in chromo my max scan range was 80m+ , now it's 56m max. I know how scan range works in Dust, no matter how it's supposed to be working, and i know that scan presicion is full of magic - not working as intended. Sometime i can pick up proto scout, sometime i can't pick up heavy in front of me, and i don't think there is ninja HMGs heavys with dampner modules. So you're saying that equipping a weapon that lets you actually check the range of a target, and getting a friend (who you're talking to on Skype) to position themselves at the VERY edge of your scan range then turning to check the range is "guesswork" now? Yeah, I guess it must be if you said it. Because exactly that has actually been done. It isn't "guesswork", it's TESTING. Which is why I said it's been TESTED and CONFIRMED and not that it's been guessed at without being verified. Yes, scanning has been wonky a lot of the time since Uprising first dropped, but it seems pretty consistent for me so far in 1.4 EDIT: Will look up numbers for the range your scanner fit SHOULD be reaching soonish.


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