DUST Search - Tank vs AV

Lurchasaurus wrote:

jamstar saa187 wrote:

and really, what tank driver doesn't see that they are getting hit by an AV? they may not be able to pinpoint where its coming from, but they usually know they are taking damage. the smart ones get ghost until they can identify the threat, and either avoid/crush the culprit.

i'll tell you, even with my Adv Forge, i usually only kill the slow/stupid/over confident Tank drivers. the savvy ones never let me get off 3 shots on them before they have either taken me out, or high-tailed it. the cost is high admittedly, but as said before, im a firm believer that with the right squad tanks are a very durable and viable option.

eg: last night, in a Skirmish battle on the Map with the objective on the bridge , im on an elevated position, and there is a tank cruising between D, A (on the bridge) and E. it hit him once (he knows im here, but not where), i hit him again, and before i could get him the 3rd time he took cover....... he repped up and came out, i slap him again. he then runs to cover under the bridge and repps up again. cant remember what happened after that, i think i got preoccupied killing the little ants (infantry) but i know i didnt get to kill that tank. the drive was too smart to get caught in the open for me to do any lasting damage.

saying tank drivers are stupid for not moving away from AV fire while simultaneously acknowledging that that AV fire is coming from an invisible guy, and also acknowledging that the damage indicator is lying seems pretty stupid to me


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jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 18:30:00 - [1] - Quote Ted Nugget wrote: As long as AV can get on top of buildings and shoot all the way to the ground there will be no balance. Why stand on the ground and fight a tank when you can just go to the top of a building and spam av from nano hives from that one spot until you blow up said tank. This is why I really am hoping that I get a respec. No matter how you do av vs. tanks av will always win because they have the option of gettin higher ground which, 1 the game doesnt render what is on top of building from inside tank, 2 i couldnt shoot that far if i wanted to.. 3 can i have a respec? i honestly would love nothing more than to spec out of vehicles i have lost more money than tanks are worth no doubt soooooooo when a tank is on a high spot (on top of buildings, on a mountain in red line, etc) this is not advantageous to the tank? im sorry, maybe im missing something, but i figure high ground is only as useful as the first unit/person to claim it. i cant even remember how many times i have been rail sniped by a tank from an elevated position that i cant even see. dude, i get your frustration, but i think its just something we ALL will have to deal with, regardless of play style, unless the Devs ban all usage of rooftops n mountains. Snipers on a roof, AV on a roof, Tanks on a roof, all are just a deadly given the right shooter. (thing is not everyone on a roof is deadly to a tank, but most on the roof are deadly to infantry)
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 18:57:00 - [2] - Quote Ted Nugget wrote: funny im always gettin shot and no idea where it came from let me pull up the map... ooo there they are on top of that building which i cant even shoot at Then just run with a sniper in your squad Ted. if you need cover fire and you cant do it yourself you should have at least 3 persons in your squad (assuming you have a fully occupied tank) that would be otherwise occupied. try running with a sniper who can hit those elevated positions that you cant. and on an aside, maybe the reason it seems they are always up there isnt because they start out as an AV. usually when one gets to that elevated position they drop a nanohive and a uplink. sure some stay up there, but most drop down to get into the action. when you in your tank kill an infantry, usually retribution is the order of the day. some will be stupid/brave and engage you on the ground Infantry v Tank, others will spawn at that conveniently placed uplink up high and rain down fire for the lost suit and K/D hurt (that same suit you forced them to choose because they just got their ass handed to them by your tank) cause and effect Ted. you brought a bigger gun to the fight, dont be surprised if the guy you shot wants to get 1 back.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 18:58:00 - [3] - Quote Ted Nugget wrote: and i dont promote tanks on buildings either... that is just stupid stupid, but it happens! and its effective, usually those guys lose only one fit, if at all any.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 19:06:00 - [4] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: jamstar saa187 wrote: Ted Nugget wrote: and i dont promote tanks on buildings either... that is just stupid stupid, but it happens! and its effective, usually those guys lose only one fit, if at all any. that one fit puts him in the red for 10 matches should have got his ass away from the edge of the building then. if one see themselves getting shot........ move to where you are not. on top of a building that is a simple as reversing to where you are out of the line of sight of the the AV.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 19:21:00 - [5] - Quote and really, what tank driver doesn't see that they are getting hit by an AV? they may not be able to pinpoint where its coming from, but they usually know they are taking damage. the smart ones get ghost until they can identify the threat, and either avoid/crush the culprit. i'll tell you, even with my Adv Forge, i usually only kill the slow/stupid/over confident Tank drivers. the savvy ones never let me get off 3 shots on them before they have either taken me out, or high-tailed it. the cost is high admittedly, but as said before, im a firm believer that with the right squad tanks are a very durable and viable option. eg: last night, in a Skirmish battle on the Map with the objective on the bridge , im on an elevated position, and there is a tank cruising between D, A (on the bridge) and E. it hit him once (he knows im here, but not where), i hit him again, and before i could get him the 3rd time he took cover....... he repped up and came out, i slap him again. he then runs to cover under the bridge and repps up again. cant remember what happened after that, i think i got preoccupied killing the little ants (infantry) but i know i didnt get to kill that tank. the driver was too smart to get caught in the open for me to do any lasting damage.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 19:35:00 - [6] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: jamstar saa187 wrote: and really, what tank driver doesn't see that they are getting hit by an AV? they may not be able to pinpoint where its coming from, but they usually know they are taking damage. the smart ones get ghost until they can identify the threat, and either avoid/crush the culprit. i'll tell you, even with my Adv Forge, i usually only kill the slow/stupid/over confident Tank drivers. the savvy ones never let me get off 3 shots on them before they have either taken me out, or high-tailed it. the cost is high admittedly, but as said before, im a firm believer that with the right squad tanks are a very durable and viable option. eg: last night, in a Skirmish battle on the Map with the objective on the bridge , im on an elevated position, and there is a tank cruising between D, A (on the bridge) and E. it hit him once (he knows im here, but not where), i hit him again, and before i could get him the 3rd time he took cover....... he repped up and came out, i slap him again. he then runs to cover under the bridge and repps up again. cant remember what happened after that, i think i got preoccupied killing the little ants (infantry) but i know i didnt get to kill that tank. the drive was too smart to get caught in the open for me to do any lasting damage. saying tank drivers are stupid for not moving away from AV fire while simultaneously acknowledging that that AV fire is coming from an invisible guy, and also acknowledging that the damage indicator is lying seems pretty stupid to me Lurch is that all you took from that post? for clarification sake, i didnt say the the AV was coming from an invisible guy, i said the tank driver didnt know where it came from, there is a difference here. (how many tanks that get shot from behind know exactly where the shooter is..... think on that ) and where did i even mention a lying indicator? SMH. dude you are reading what you want to see, not what is actually there. and considering that you only seem to have picked-up(imagined) that my post is about broken game mechanics i take it you have no real objections to my underlying point of having a strategy (ie. good squad support or knowing what to do in certain dangerous situations) is an huge asset to a tank driver.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 19:43:00 - [7] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: jamstar saa187 wrote: and really, what tank driver doesn't see that they are getting hit by an AV? they may not be able to pinpoint where its coming from, but they usually know they are taking damage this is what i saw and comprehended as so. if that was not your meaning, then i misunderstood you and thats my bad NP dude. but seriously try keeping a sniper near for those pesky rooftop dwellers (and im part of that cadre sometimes) we cant shoot snipers and usually have to drop down b4 they kill us. (that is unless the guy has a Commando suit with a Swarm n Sniper combo, in which case, yeah that will be a difficult ***** to handle)
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 20:01:00 - [8] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: read my above post where I have already said sniping heavies on a tower doesnt work this one.... Lurchasaurus wrote: hence the problem with tower forges. and people keep telling me to counter snipe them and expect me to just go, "Oh, wow! What a great idea!" i dont quite get what you mean though. im not suggesting that you the tank driver counter snipe, but that you have a squad member that is sniping, or that can get into a sniping fit and take out (or at least force to move) the AV on the tower. how can this not work? whats the flaw in this?
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 20:09:00 - [9] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: no, the heavy will simply pull back on the tower and sit on a hive. snipers dont have the dps to ohk a heavy and its not like the heavy has any intention of actually being near the fight anyway. that is the problem. k i got you there. but when said Heavy gets brave again your sniper puts him in his place. it will be a little game of cat and mouse, but in the time he's retreating you can get you tank into a blind spot/out of range of the heavy (assuming your Sniper is letting you know when its safe to come out of cover) it's not quick, ideal, or fool proof, but it's an option. i figure this thread is about tank survivability, and with this at least your tank has a greater chance of surviving.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 20:52:00 - [10] - Quote to be fair Ted, there is no (single) AV that can fire off enough volleys to kill a smart tank driver that has a decent Turbo equipped and is aware of his escape route. (ie. the smart tank driver wont get caught in the open with no escape route either, so they kinda negate each other) Lurch, i think we will be in eternal disagreement on this one (funny as we are arguing re immortal fighters and im a part-time AV and u a tank driver). yes some will do that, but if you are encountering this on each map that you run, then you are one unlucky chap. i DO see them on (unrechable) elevated positions, especially in some of the PC battles that i have managed to play, but to say that its the case in every match.... well it's not what i encounter, and definitely not how i play.

jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 20:58:00 - [11] - Quote im not sure if it's STB that used to do it, but i do notice that i dont see the 'tank squads' anymore since the Uprising. i'd suspect the nerf to the tank has a lot to do with that, but i remember back in Chromosome (b4 id speced into the FG) i occasionally used to run into a tank that had but 4-6 or more infantry moving with it through the city or camping an objective. any potential AV threat was snuffed out by the infantry B4 they had a chance to do any serious damage to the Tank. i guess that is why i believe having a decent support squad is so effective. 'cus as i remember it they were nigh unstoppable back then.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 47	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:16:00 - [12] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: i dont waste my time on ambush, and i hate dom. i play the game mode that matters and it happens without fail, especially once the tank comes out. Simply saying, "Well, I didn't see anything." doesnt work. If that was the case murderers would never get caught. especially as an AV user, assuming a good tank has a turbo or even should have one is like me saying any good AV user shuold have profile dampening and its their fault for getting spotted. Doesn't work that way. so in your opinion vehicles, tanks in particular, are not viable at all in this build of the game, irrespective of tactics? i see you are asking for a respec, and i actually agree with your stance since it seems the changes to the class will be so drastic as to change the feel of the gameplay all together, but is this something you 2 believe is irreparable or that the level design needs to be overhauled too?
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 48	Posted - 2013.08.30 14:28:00 - [13] - Quote .
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 48	Posted - 2013.08.30 14:29:00 - [14] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: i am of the opinion that no matter how good AV is, i believe i am simplly better than other people and i will kill them anyway. If an enemy team squad leader gets on comms and says, "Guys, focus on that tank" then it should be a very big problem. I would just like to be able to see the guys who are shooting at me. I would like AV to lose money when i kill them instead of just going, "Oh well, that was only 150k isk anyway" I would like for all the people with tunnel vision to realize that a weapon that you can get without speccing into it for av, which homes in, does more damage than most AV weapons themselves, can be fit on any suit, costs 15k isk, and can be replenished faster than you can throw is simply a bad game mechanic and takes the purpose of an AV role away. Tanks choose between railguns or blasters for AI or AV. Infantry can simply throw lai dais on next to that swarm, ar, md or smg. Oh yeah, swarms lock on too.. We dont have countermeasures, we dont get a lock warning, we no longer can see a charge animation when a forge is charging, we no longer get pg, armor, or shields from any of our skills, unlike infantry.......would you like me to go on? The expected reply... "u mad bro" im on a different time zone. couldn't reply earlier. Lurch, the only way i can see the ISK/risk equation being balanced, given the current game structure, is to limit AV to the vehicle classes. i just don't see an alternative given your stated grouses. there is no way i can conceive an infantry build that costs upwards of 300k ISK, especially when there is a higher than likely chance that said infantry may be killed before he even gets to engage the Vehicle that he is targeting. as happen so often now, if im using my HMG and i see a infantry running a Swarm launcher, i think money in the bank, easy kill. just imagine the bulls eye that would be on the back of a 300k infantry...... its either that or they only allow Infantry AV to take out LAV's, and low level Tanks and Dropships (malitia/entry level) thus limiting the potential cost disparity and leaving the more expensive/advanced tanks n dropships to a more expensive class of player. that way the hunted and the hunter both have a lot on the line (and i think you tank boys would be less disgruntled is it is a top level Dropship or tank that kills you) Edit: having thought about this a little. there could be many problems with limiting AV to the Vehicle class. i strongly believe that a dedicated squad should be able to take out ANY tank, but one v one, yeah i see your point.
jamstar saa187 Imperial Populicide Legion Alpha Wolf Pack 48	Posted - 2013.08.30 15:40:00 - [15] - Quote Stalken Pathfinder wrote: You are wrong because you do not need to "take out" a tank to accomplish your job as AV. As long as you keep us out of the fight you are doing your job. The fact that a Dropsuit can solo a tank and actually take it out is where the imbalance truly lies. Tactics should always reign supreme but when a single infantry dressed in a 100k Dropsuit can chuck 3 nades and follow that up with a volley or two from their choice of primary AV weapon to destroy a 2.8 million ISK tank with a 13 million SP driver tactics are pretty much useless. To the OP's point this situation is exacerbated by the render issues among other things. But the main problem is that it should take a team to kill a tank and a tank should always fall to a well coordinated and equipped team. But as long as tanks can be solo'd by those who invest less in terms of both SP and ISK an insurmountable imbalance will remain. I am not saying AV is "over powered" because it's not necessarily AV damage that is the problem: it is the risk vs reward. Right now for AV there is barely any risk and the reward is limited only by the amount of vehicles on the field. For tanks the risks are too numerous to list and any rewards can really only be achieved when AV is not present. Remember: if a tank goes 30-1 this is not a successful outng as they still lost in the long run. They will have to play anywhere from 2-10 games without any losses to recoup the losses from that one death. i've put in bold that part because i wholeheartedly agree. just the presence of an AV should scare a tank, and moving the tank should give your team the advantage on that particular patch of the map. Im an AV (part time Forge Gun) user, and i support that sentiment. deterring the tank so you have map supremacy should be the primary objective, killing it should be the icing on the cake, IMHO. (which is why i stated in earlier posts that the smart drivers tend to run when thy are outgunned, thus saving the tank)