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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1907
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Posted - 2013.08.28 23:47:00 -
[31] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: For the matchmaking I was thinking of a system where you could choose the bracket to go in - for example, you could choose to go in the standard bracket but be limited to standard gear and be unable to use prototype gear in it, even if you could use it normally. I strongly believe that matchmaking has the ability to help the protostomping situation a lot if done correctly.
The 2.5 mil SP requirement for a single protosuit is exactly what I mean by a grindy system, though there are other flaws as well. It's not just grindy there - three weeks of non-stop grinding for complex shield extenders is a little much. It might not be hugely noticeable because you already have them, though.
I feel that a fixed economy would help because it wouldn't be economical to run protosuits all the time for as many people.
On the specialisations in the tech levels - I seem to recall that in a number of 'tiericide' ideas there have been suggestions that in the new system there would be suits which would tweak attributes, like sacrificing some speed for damage, or tank for speed, etc. That'd keep the tech levels from becoming as stale as there'd be more variety even in the same racial sets. That's what I was referring to - putting those in, but in each tech level.
There has been a lot of talk about gear based matchmaking but the devs don't like it, and I can understand why. Most people would probably stick to the standard bracket, and would never find a need or want or SP and/or aurum gear. The game right now is designed that you always want more, but if you restrict it where I no longer need that stuff? Well why would I want it? It is probably counter productive to the monetization model behind Dust.
The SP system should be low to unlock and high to specialize, they are pretty close I think. The problem with shield extenders lies in the fact that std/adv shield extenders are useless, they need to be more like armor plates. Change then to 40 - 55 - 66 with an appropriate recharge delay penalty and now that doesn't seem so bad trying to go for complex does it?
Dropsuits are the only problem when it comes to the 'grindy' aspect imo, just because std and adv dropsuits are garbage imo. Why run a std/adv anything else when I have a proto cal logi suit? Its not so bad for weapons because I can balance running adv weaponry with complex modules, and then when i unlock the complex weapon I can move my modules around right? So the proto weapon isnt automatically better, its just more slot efficient.
I think if we only have the one dropsuit, which got better with more SP is the way to go.
Type I and Type II suits are a thing of the past i'm afraid. I dont think that its the direction they want to go. Each new dropsuit they create is a substantial effort on their part (balancing and art) and should have an appropriate SP sink as a result. I would rather like to see Tech 3 options... like a medic suit that requires logistics 3 and has medic appropriate bonuses. etc.
By using my idea you can unlock a lot of different dropsuits in order to try them out, and then decide how deep you want to specialize in each one. The passive bonuses on their own could/should be an attractive enough incentive to justify the SP sink. However the passive bonus should represent a fraction of power, not 2-3x in power. That kind of power gap is why no new players want to play dust, and I don't blame them. Im only here because I started early open beta, no way in hell I would start this game fresh now.
Look at vehicle drivers, a lot of them went level 5 in racial HAV to get only 10% resistance, and I think the passive should have been much more than just that. |
Rage Racer
DUST University Irregulars
16
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Posted - 2013.08.28 23:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I hear too many complaints now that when red-dots drop proto gear, the game ends, therefore we need tiericide....to remove tiers. [...] So stop crying, and figure out how to be a real mercenary and get down to business adapting for the situation. Also, please share your tips and tricks to blue-ball the enemy protobears and tryhards so we can all end this needless talk of tearicide when we already have plenty of roles to play with, already. First of all, this is not EVE. ISK/hour means **** in Dust. AFKing is more efficient in generating ISK than actually playing the game.
But there is fun/hour. And a new player getting stomped by people who just use their protogear in pubmatches to increase their damn KDR sure does not have a lot fun.
And just because your damn protogear costs a lot of ISK and you probably will not make a profit when you die once or twice in a pubmatch - which you won't anyway if you at least have the slightest clue what you are doing - is not a good enough reason to feel entitled to roflstomp new players 23/7.
You are not a part of the team, you are a part of the problem.
I'm sick and tired of listening to the same reasoning over and over again. And it all comes from people who are too afraid to admit that they'd suck balls if they did not use their protogear all the time.
Do away with the tiers! Having plain better versions of suits is ridiculous. Give them different roles instead of plain more slots and CPU/PG. This will make the game more interesting and more newb friendly at the same time. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1911
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Posted - 2013.08.29 01:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Rage Racer wrote:Do away with the tiers! Having plain better versions of suits is ridiculous. Give them different roles instead of plain more slots and CPU/PG. This will make the game more interesting and more newb friendly at the same time.
Yep... you should never be able to buy more power with isk. |
Beren Hurin
The Vanguardians
1282
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Posted - 2013.08.29 01:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Rage Racer wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:I hear too many complaints now that when red-dots drop proto gear, the game ends, therefore we need tiericide....to remove tiers. [...] So stop crying, and figure out how to be a real mercenary and get down to business adapting for the situation. Also, please share your tips and tricks to blue-ball the enemy protobears and tryhards so we can all end this needless talk of tearicide when we already have plenty of roles to play with, already. First of all, this is not EVE. ISK/hour means **** in Dust. AFKing is more efficient in generating ISK than actually playing the game. But there is fun/hour. And a new player getting stomped by people who just use their protogear in pubmatches to increase their damn KDR sure does not have a lot fun. And just because your damn protogear costs a lot of ISK and you probably will not make a profit when you die once or twice in a pubmatch - which you won't anyway if you at least have the slightest clue what you are doing - is not a good enough reason to feel entitled to roflstomp new players 23/7. You are not a part of the team, you are a part of the problem. I'm sick and tired of listening to the same reasoning over and over again. And it all comes from people who are too afraid to admit that they'd suck balls if they did not use their protogear all the time. Do away with the tiers! Having plain better versions of suits is ridiculous. Give them different roles instead of plain more slots and CPU/PG. This will make the game more interesting and more newb friendly at the same time.
Not sure what you are reading here, but I'm not the one whining about the isk/hour problem of protogear. i'm not the type that takes it into pub matches, because of the very reason that, as a logi, it is rarely profitable. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S.
3325
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Posted - 2013.08.29 03:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
Just added this thread to my list here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1166696#post1166696
I Reccomend reading the threads on the list, lots of good discussion and ideas in them. And I believe "restructuring dropsuit progression" contains some interesting figures on the number of unique dropsuits both both currently and in a tiercided system. |
Poonmunch
Sanguis Defense Syndicate
231
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Posted - 2013.08.29 04:29:00 -
[36] - Quote
When I read the title of this thread I thought it was about a convention I was at in Vegas one time.
Munch |
DeadlyAztec11
Red Star Jr. EoN.
2065
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Posted - 2013.08.29 04:36:00 -
[37] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Shion Typhon wrote:Beren Hurin wrote: 1) Please define 'massive' in your terms. In terms of PRO vs. STD gear I see at best a doubling, maybe tripling of eHP. And with DPS, PRO gear gets at best 50% -75% more dps after max skills.
Seriously?? I mean really? You can't see how having 3x the HP and +75% DPS on the other guy is beyond insane from an FPS design perspective? This isn't some gradual curve either with proto sets being "pay-walled" behind a large number of L5 skills. Dude those numbers only matter if you believe that all engagements are 1v1 clean showdowns. PRO AR squads, can only hit up to 55m effectively. They can be bombarded at that range by mass drivers. If they then divide up their squad to cover all their weapon/range bases then they lower the effectiveness at those closer ranges. Grenade damage is still an equalizer for most suits. Surprise attacks can mitigate a lot of eHP/dps advantage for both PRO/STD users. I simply have not heard what you want besides having everything be roughly equal the same isk, but 3-4x the complexity when it comes to battlefield roles. in order for the community to even make sense of that kind of complexity they would need 3-4x the amount of SP they have right now. The problem YOU need to deal with right now are the people who say, "I'm a caldari proto AR user, and I have the best possible combination. I'm bored and have nothing left to skill into" That's an ignorant attitude, and is more responsible for destroying the chemistry of battlefield 'fairness' than the ability of people to pull out proto. You are way over estimating noobs.
Any tactics that can be used by a squad of militia scrubs can be replicated by a proto squad and deal a lot higher results.
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Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
241
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Posted - 2013.08.29 09:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Shion Typhon wrote:Beren Hurin wrote: 1) Please define 'massive' in your terms. In terms of PRO vs. STD gear I see at best a doubling, maybe tripling of eHP. And with DPS, PRO gear gets at best 50% -75% more dps after max skills.
Seriously?? I mean really? You can't see how having 3x the HP and +75% DPS on the other guy is beyond insane from an FPS design perspective? This isn't some gradual curve either with proto sets being "pay-walled" behind a large number of L5 skills. 75% isn't a realistic number. It's nowhere near realistic - with 5 complex damage mods and proficiency 5, you'll get a little over half that, and if you do that you certainly won't have the HP advantage. The main problem is the HP bricking.
You also need to factor in the fact that the veteran is using his Duvolle with L4-5 in Proficiency + sharpshooter + extra ammo + reload speed so more bullets hit harder, quicker, it all adds up drastically. It may not be +75% but on a practical level on the battlefield its getting up there. |
Shion Typhon
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
241
|
Posted - 2013.08.29 09:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Shion Typhon wrote:Beren Hurin wrote: 1) Please define 'massive' in your terms. In terms of PRO vs. STD gear I see at best a doubling, maybe tripling of eHP. And with DPS, PRO gear gets at best 50% -75% more dps after max skills.
Seriously?? I mean really? You can't see how having 3x the HP and +75% DPS on the other guy is beyond insane from an FPS design perspective? This isn't some gradual curve either with proto sets being "pay-walled" behind a large number of L5 skills. 75% isn't a realistic number. It's nowhere near realistic - with 5 complex damage mods and proficiency 5, you'll get a little over half that, and if you do that you certainly won't have the HP advantage. The main problem is the HP bricking. And my points above, indirectly albeit, is that HP bricking works now because hit detection is off, and most fights are at close range. HP bricking (especially if shields started having a regen penalty) comes at the expense of regen. Which means you can ONLY be effective so often. So while some player may be able to tank like a beast, that tactical advantage will only be there for a very short amount of time.
So what if he's only super beast part of the time? The other guy is dead so his effectiveness is zero and I'm well and truly super beast again by the time he returns from his nearest spawn point. You don't magically regen slower due to having more HP. |
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