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What economy and market are people talking about?

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8213 Grade No.2 198	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:08:00 - [1] - Quote I always read things about keeping the market balanced and not disrupting the economy. For example, when CCP goofed and gave a lot of people 30M ISK. They had to fix it, because they claimed it messed up the economy of the New Eden Universe or something like that. Isn't ISK and the Assets you can buy infinite? What the hell is this market & economy thing everyone talks about? Did I miss something? Because I've been hearing about it since DUST first came out and have never understood it.
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 497	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:12:00 - [2] - Quote mmm
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1321	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:13:00 - [3] - Quote Go back to Grade No. 1
Rynoceros Rise of Old Dudes 575	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:14:00 - [4] - Quote There are a lot of Ifs & Whens dictating how things currently operate. Invisible Crutches.
8213 Grade No.2 198	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:24:00 - [5] - Quote Seriously, someone explain it. If there was a set amount of ISK in circulation and assets you could buy, then I can see it. But I can gain infinite ISK and Assets, like every player. SP is infinite as well. You can't have a market or economy if everything is infinite. The prices of products can never change and circulation of ISK can never occur.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1037	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:25:00 - [6] - Quote I'll swing for it. Eve online has a market where players buy,sell,make, and trade in game mods, characters, weapons, drones, ships, ammo and the like Dust 514 is supposed to have this as well but it's not currently in the game.CCP has however made preps for it's inclusion such as less salvage being given in pub matches, without the market actually being open ,as the main sorce of income is not currently in the game many are losing isk because they are more or less forced to use their best gear at all times to compeat against other players. This is (presumably) why many are asking for it to be included as at the current rate some lose isk (particularly those who don't use medium frames for combat) at an extream rate so many that are either not in corps or don't do PC are going to be broke very quickly. Hope this helps and sorry for the grammar I had to speed type this.
Beren Hurin The Vanguardians 1234	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:28:00 - [7] - Quote isk comes into the economy through event rewards, giveaways, BPOs bought through aurum, and other aurum goods. When anything bought with isk/aurum in game is destroyed, presumably a percentage of that is converted to isk that is then paid out at the end of a match. On top of some OTHER pool of isk that is given out additionally based on performance in game (we'll say its about 2 million isk/match). So the more expensive the average loss is in a match, the higher payout that match will give. Depending on how CCP scales this, what fuels or cools the income generation in the game is this statistic. Sure the isk in DUST is infinite in a way, but the rate that it comes into the economy is determined by risk rates and participation rates. If players are playing 1 game a day, less isk is coming into the game than if they played 20 games a day. Then if they just sit on top of that pile of isk, or sink it into bigger stuff that then gives a chance for other players to destroy it and also get a piece of that investment will factor into the 'capital growth' of the economy.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 869	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:30:00 - [8] - Quote It's the eve online economy. It's player run. meaning where some mmo have you deal with npc. eve is player run. This game, or should I say the IDEA for this game was to compliment eve. Bring players to eve, or pump money (isk) to eve. No matter how you slice it, dust gets the short end. FW? Who benefits? PC? who benefits? If your the merc that cares less for eve, than don't worry about it. The dust>eve interaction will always be limited to eve>dust. cause dust really affecting eve? eve players will have seizures.
8213 Grade No.2 198	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:33:00 - [9] - Quote You realize that none of that makes any sense. Because I can go into a match, hide, or AFK and get ISK, I can do this until I have quad-trillions of ISK, and I can buy assets with it until I have googles of them... Without a set number of assets or ISK in circulation, there can never be anything of what you are talking about. DUST already has Multi-trillionaires that can conceivably never run out of ISK or assets. CCP would have to change the currency system in this game completely.
P14GU3 The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 327	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:37:00 - [10] - Quote There is no economy in dust yet. There are too worried about upseeting the economy is eve/sust to implement it.

Surt gods end Demon Ronin 869	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:37:00 - [11] - Quote 8213 wrote: You realize that none of that makes any sense. Because I can go into a match, hide, or AFK and get ISK, I can do this until I have quad-trillions of ISK, and I can buy assets with it until I have googles of them... Without a set number of assets or ISK in circulation, there can never be anything of what you are talking about. DUST already has Multi-trillionaires that can conceivably never run out of ISK or assets. CCP would have to change the currency system in this game completely. cause market is not connected yet. people like to talk about stuff that hasn't happen yet on here dude! you should know that already. lol "POTENTIAL" "eve market" "eve lore" none which effects dust as of now. but they are talking about future.
Thor McStrut Reckoners 145	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:42:00 - [12] - Quote 8213 wrote: You realize that none of that makes any sense. Because I can go into a match, hide, or AFK and get ISK, I can do this until I have quad-trillions of ISK, and I can buy assets with it until I have googles of them... Without a set number of assets or ISK in circulation, there can never be anything of what you are talking about. DUST already has Multi-trillionaires that can conceivably never run out of ISK or assets. CCP would have to change the currency system in this game completely. This is exactly why CCP needs to implement the player run market ASAP. The longer they wait, the more potential damage will be done. ISK is rapidly accumulating with nothing to really spend it on. Very few players lose isk.
Anarchide Greedy Bastards 497	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:48:00 - [13] - Quote Thor McStrut wrote: 8213 wrote: You realize that none of that makes any sense. Because I can go into a match, hide, or AFK and get ISK, I can do this until I have quad-trillions of ISK, and I can buy assets with it until I have googles of them... Without a set number of assets or ISK in circulation, there can never be anything of what you are talking about. DUST already has Multi-trillionaires that can conceivably never run out of ISK or assets. CCP would have to change the currency system in this game completely. This is exactly why CCP needs to implement the player run market ASAP. The longer they wait, the more potential damage will be done. ISK is rapidly accumulating with nothing to really spend it on. Very few players lose isk. ...Wait until the time you want proto tanks.
8213 Grade No.2 200	Posted - 2013.08.26 14:52:00 - [14] - Quote Anarchide wrote: Thor McStrut wrote: 8213 wrote: You realize that none of that makes any sense. Because I can go into a match, hide, or AFK and get ISK, I can do this until I have quad-trillions of ISK, and I can buy assets with it until I have googles of them... Without a set number of assets or ISK in circulation, there can never be anything of what you are talking about. DUST already has Multi-trillionaires that can conceivably never run out of ISK or assets. CCP would have to change the currency system in this game completely. This is exactly why CCP needs to implement the player run market ASAP. The longer they wait, the more potential damage will be done. ISK is rapidly accumulating with nothing to really spend it on. Very few players lose isk. ...Wait until the time you want proto tanks. If I have 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,051 ISK accumulated, because it's infinite, I can buy all the PROTOTYPE whatever I want...
Zero Harpuia WarRavens League of Infamy 695	Posted - 2013.08.26 15:30:00 - [15] - Quote 8213 wrote: Anarchide wrote: Thor McStrut wrote: 8213 wrote: You realize that none of that makes any sense. Because I can go into a match, hide, or AFK and get ISK, I can do this until I have quad-trillions of ISK, and I can buy assets with it until I have googles of them... Without a set number of assets or ISK in circulation, there can never be anything of what you are talking about. DUST already has Multi-trillionaires that can conceivably never run out of ISK or assets. CCP would have to change the currency system in this game completely. This is exactly why CCP needs to implement the player run market ASAP. The longer they wait, the more potential damage will be done. ISK is rapidly accumulating with nothing to really spend it on. Very few players lose isk. ...Wait until the time you want proto tanks. If I have 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,051 ISK accumulated, because it's infinite, I can buy all the PROTOTYPE whatever I want... You can infinitely acquire ISK. This is true. However, the more ISK in circulation, the more people will charge you for goods. The less competition someone has in selling , say, SMGs, he's able to set his own prices. No matter HOW much ISK you CAN make, it won't matter in the end because the economy will always be shifting to compensate. Look at EVE and the Ratbotters, they singlehandedly screwed over inflation in the EVEverse. CCP is trying to prevent similar incedents here in DUST because DUST was designed to be an ISK SINK for EVE. You may think you are getting alot of ISK quickly, but it's nothing compared to a single Hulk miner, or even a Burst miner. We make chump change to support our murder habit, EVE will be paying us the larger dividends to do their dirty work, and there will be less total ISK because of all the blown up crap and the occasional NPC purchases. IN SHORT. You can get infinite ISK in THEORY, but a player market will compensate for the new abundance of ISK. The more there is the miore things will cost.
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders 659	Posted - 2013.08.26 15:32:00 - [16] - Quote if Dust ever effects EVE then Jita will burn, again...
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3752	Posted - 2013.08.26 16:00:00 - [17] - Quote @8213 As Zero Harpuia pointed out to you, it will not matter if you have 500 million ISK or 500 trillion ISK. The player-run market, once it's implemented in the future, will compensate which means that the price of an item that you regularly purchase will proportional to the size of your wallet and your willingness to pay a certain price. What we are trying to explain to you here is economics based on supply and demand where players, not NPC, will one day determine the price of a buy or sell order. If you have taken economics class at least once in high school, then you will see what we mean. As of right now, you are correct to assume that currently we can make infinite ISK just by AFKing. Emphasis on the word "currently". CCP will make changes to curb stomp AFKing just like they curb stomped the botters in Eve. They have perfected a series of systems used over the course of 10 years to track and report people who don't play honestly. You are already seeing that system work. For example, the recent events have been tailored towards players who accrue active WP rather than passive during a match. There is also the fact that AFKers are about to be punished in 1.4 when the update hits. But anyways, If CCP is going to implement this buy-sell order market in which players (not NPCs) dictate the prices of any given item in the market, then they will also have to take the time to implement an industry in order for the economy to remain stable. Someone has to manufacture those items in the markets and someone else has to acquire the minerals needed for manufacturing said items, and then someone else will use said items to attack the person who acquired said items so that more mining equipment will need to be replaced and thus keep demand going. But this is a long process that will come in phases. As the market and industry are initially implemented, many of the items will first be NPC produced as of right now. But then, as the players create enough items at a sustainable rate, those NPC-seeded items will slowly be withdrawn and soon players will have full control of those items in terms of pricing and manufacturing. @Zero Harpuia Botters have harmed Eve Online, that is correct. But not anymore. If you haven't been paying attention, CCP has been swinging the ban hammer against bot users like a drunk Thor at a bar fight. As a result, control of the economy has finally been restored to the honest, hard-working players and away from the bot users (cheaters).
8213 Grade No.2 201	Posted - 2013.08.26 16:30:00 - [18] - Quote So, if & when this actual economy gets implemented, CCP will build in artificial inflation? So if I have 18quad-trillion ISK, the game will factor that into my buying power, and I would be paying 2 Billion ISK for a Miltia Submachine Gun? Or will eventually the market store go away and we can only buy from players(or what players sell into the market store), as the game will have a finite amount of each item? So rare Officer items will be worth 10,000x there Prototype Mass produced counterparts?
Derek Barnes 0uter.Heaven 361	Posted - 2013.08.26 16:48:00 - [19] - Quote 8213 wrote: So, if & when this actual economy gets implemented, CCP will build in artificial inflation? So if I have 18quad-trillion ISK, the game will factor that into my buying power, and I would be paying 2 Billion ISK for a Miltia Submachine Gun? Or will eventually the market store go away and we can only buy from players(or what players sell into the market store), as the game will have a finite amount of each item? So rare Officer items will be worth 10,000x there Prototype Mass produced counterparts? Thats what everyone is saying once the player market comes into play, CCP will get rid of the market place we have now. Look at Eve the only market they have is a player run market. Where the players decide how much to sell things for and how much to buy the things for.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD 757	Posted - 2013.08.26 16:55:00 - [20] - Quote @ 8213 Here's a tiny little Eve Dev blog on economic things: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/pre-retribution-trading-price-indices-november-2012/ It's not unrealistic to say that the New Eden market is the same as the real world market, but with much fewer controls and some artificial sources and sinks for ISK thrown in there. But the behavior is genuinely real world market, right down to the chaotic behavior of non-linear market variables(I'm just guessing Dr. Eyo, if you're reading this). The biggest difference between the New Eden economy and the real world's is that in in New Eden you can track down your economic competitors and shoot them in the face. But on the other hand, if you play the game at a high enough level, you can do that here on Earth too.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3752	Posted - 2013.08.26 16:56:00 - [21] - Quote Derek Barnes wrote: 8213 wrote: So, if & when this actual economy gets implemented, CCP will build in artificial inflation? So if I have 18quad-trillion ISK, the game will factor that into my buying power, and I would be paying 2 Billion ISK for a Miltia Submachine Gun? Or will eventually the market store go away and we can only buy from players(or what players sell into the market store), as the game will have a finite amount of each item? So rare Officer items will be worth 10,000x there Prototype Mass produced counterparts? Thats what everyone is saying once the player market comes into play, CCP will get rid of the market place we have now. Look at Eve the only market they have is a player run market. Where the players decide how much to sell things for and how much to buy the things for. @8213 Correct. @Derek Barnes Not everything in Eve Online is strictly player-controlled. There are still a few NPC-seeded items like... 1. Blueprint Originals which can be researched into highly efficient (but limited-run) copies which still requires players to mine the minerals needed for production. 2. Civilian Modules (Eve's equivalent to Dust's militia modules) are sold by the NPC but they are practically as useless as a broken condom once you are done with the first week as a new player as you get thrown into a universe where the wolves run the sheep and thus you have to use the player-made stuff in order to compete effectively. 3. Skill Books... duh. 4. And a few others that I forgot.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3752	Posted - 2013.08.26 17:22:00 - [22] - Quote After seeing so many explanations to your question, you're probably asking yourself this question... "Why add something so complex as the economy and industry into a simple genre that is the first-person shooter?" Someone did ask this question once and it's a really good question. To answer this question, you need to look at Eve Online's history. When Eve first came out, it came a time where other MMOs like Guild Wars and such didn't have any meaningful economy. In fact, almost no one thought of how to implement the laws of supply and demand in an MMO in general let alone figure out how to balance it so that it won't be exploited or destabilized so easily. As Eve Online came in, nobody paid any attention to its economy and many people thought that the Eve market is doomed to failure. Fast forward to last year (9 years later) and now we see Guild Wars developers publicly admit that they find the Eve-style market attractive and wanted to adopt its system. If you look at GW2 now, you will see an Eve-like market. But the system failed for GW2 because the developers didn't do it right. Industry in Guild Wars 2 was also a factor. Believe it or not, Eve Online's economy is ranked as #1 in best economy in the MMO industry last year while Guild Wars 2's economy ranked as the worst in that same year after the adoption process. People are still wondering what went wrong during the initial phase of the adoption into GW2. Was it because the devs imposed too many restrictions to allow the adoption to go smoothly? Were the industry mechanics not fairly balanced? Were the money sinks and faucets not carefully controlled? What happened? Was their Karma system improperly implemented? Who knows? This does bring forth a very big problem for the first-person shooter genre. If Eve's economy didn't work for another game of the same genre, how could its economy ever work in a completely different genre like a first-person shooter where players have never gotten use to facing prices that fluctuate wildly like the real-world stock market does now? This is why CCP is wanting to be extremely careful. We all want the economy to be here now, but we understand the reason for the delay. If the economy and industry are not carefully implemented, then there will be dire consequences that even us players would not have foreseen. Eve Online's economy which took ten years to perfect and balance could collapse if done improperly.


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