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ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
216
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Posted - 2013.08.24 11:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
and reduce the effectiveness of av on tanks by a similar amount.
it just came to me a few mins ago that tanks kill mercs too easy and that mercs kills tanks too easy. it just dawned on me that the whole mechanic of tanks vs merc is badly broken and thats why it will never truly be balanced.
now i'm going to base this purely on RL and i believe this is the only way to offer the balance we need to save both sides of the argument.
in RL a tank is heavily armored against AV ground weapons but not against heavy weapons such as artillery and other tanks or remote explosives making infantry less effective against them. (80% reduction to damage from infantry weapons). this forces the enemy to bring in their own tanks etc which don't have a hard time killing that vehicle.
on the other hand RL tanks are extremely weak at killing infantry unless they are in a vehicle or a structure of some kind (80% reduction to damage to infantry) . lets not take ammo types into consideration here, look at this at a purely basic level.
if we applied this to dust then this creates a niche area for both av and tanks to work together and allow for both to exist in the same area at the same time. for ground av to take out a tank then you would need allot more to do so. if a squad wanted to roll a tank column then they could while not stomping the enemy infantry. overall this could add the balance needed to the game to allow more variety of interaction |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
216
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Posted - 2013.08.24 11:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
THE TRAINSPOTTER wrote:what if i hide in a hole with an anti tank weapon?
you cant see me but i see you and i can fuk you up
just because you in a tank it doesnt mean you dont need infantry
this is the point of the post. read it carefully and you will get it |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
216
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Posted - 2013.08.24 11:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
what i'm talking about is vehicles and infantry working side by side without one overpowering the other or dividing them into separate areas i.e vehicle vs everything, infantry vs infantry, av vs tank |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
217
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Posted - 2013.08.24 12:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:an idea was mentioned elsewhere so please tell me what you think
1: reduce large turrets effectiness against infantry, making them primarily AV oriented
2: increase effectivness of small turrets against infantry
3:inscrease survivability slightly
this would have the effect of wanting to fill your tank with gunners against infantry, and have a squad oriented tank.
would this be in line with your idea?
can you input any changes to this idea to make it more in line with your vision?
i don't think that is drastic enough to fix the underlying problems |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
217
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Posted - 2013.08.24 12:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:Chances Ghost wrote:an idea was mentioned elsewhere so please tell me what you think
1: reduce large turrets effectiness against infantry, making them primarily AV oriented
2: increase effectivness of small turrets against infantry
3:inscrease survivability slightly
this would have the effect of wanting to fill your tank with gunners against infantry, and have a squad oriented tank.
would this be in line with your idea?
can you input any changes to this idea to make it more in line with your vision? i don't think that is drastic enough to fix the underlying problems what else would you add/change to the equation?
that is basicly what i said but it needs to be a drastic change to create a distinctive gap between the vehicles and infantry rather than just shifting that damage to a different weapon but increasing survivability at the same time.
80% reduction to damage to infantry basicly accounts for the inability to target a small fast moving target such as a person. the other turrets should be more supressive as the primary role of a tank should be to provide heavy av support.
80% reduction to damage taken from infantry weapons doesn't mean we cant take the vehicle out but adds survivability when infantry is everywhere.
overall infantry survival against tanks is up meaning less proto av is needed and vehicle survival is up meaning lower loss bills for them and less hiding and more supporting.
no more 1 man army's in tanks or av |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
217
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Posted - 2013.08.24 12:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:
they need to have SOME anti infantry ability or they are restricted to anti tank.
and there would be no reason to bbring out tanks if their only role is to kill other tanks, whos only role is to kill the first tanks....
it would create a system where there are two seperate fights going on, tanks trying to kill each other for fun but not really helpful to the team, and infantry actuallly fighting for ground.
they would still be able to kill infantry as they will still be putting out allot of dps even with a reduction through all the weapon systems onboard. what you dont get in direct kills you will make back in sheer volume of assists
im an AV player. my only role is to take out vehicles. if i see infantry i attempt to flee first as i'm not suited to that in my current role.there is always reason to bring av/tank/snipers,scouts etc etc.
add in the fact they can now be used as cover or mobile cru's without the threat of everyone using av on them from all ranges then the enemy would be daft not to bring out their own to take it out. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
217
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Posted - 2013.08.24 12:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:
makes sence the massive assist mobile wouldnt be too bad concidering its effectivness against vehicles would be top notch.
i actually realy like this balance
i'm glad someone can see the point i'm trying to make. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
219
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Posted - 2013.08.24 13:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:and reduce the effectiveness of av on tanks by a similar amount.
it just came to me a few mins ago that tanks kill mercs too easy and that mercs kills tanks too easy. it just dawned on me that the whole mechanic of tanks vs merc is badly broken and thats why it will never truly be balanced.
now i'm going to base this purely on RL and i believe this is the only way to offer the balance we need to save both sides of the argument.
I can not agree with that because of shoots registration issue in this patch - many times I was shooting people that get 0 dmg, and I was clearly hear sound notification that they shield is getting hit. Beside that I think that after cutting HAV dmg overall HAV vs. HAV battles are on very good level, but HAV vs. Infantry need some tweaks at favor of Blaster HAV - but in the first place we have to deal with dmg registration issue.
hit detection is a separate issue and i believe something ccp is working on. lets not stray too far off the path here.
the issue here is that there is a need to kill vehicles before they mow down your whole team but at the same time there is a need to kill the enemy infantry before they kill your tank. the issue will always be the same unless the dynamic is changed to where vehicles and infantry interact on a different level.
vehicle vs vehicle is good
infantry vs infantry is good
vehicle vs infantry and vice versa is good which is in itself is bad
the problem is each should excel at 1 thing and be weak at the other to force variety of team buildup but as it stands everything is good at killing everything and there is no good way to balance everything against each other. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
223
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Posted - 2013.08.25 11:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
infantry and vehicles kill av, av kill vehicles, vehicles kill infantry and av. all are weak defence against each other and all are powerful damage against each other. every vehicle use and suit choice should be situational based on whats happening on the field and not just balanced against each other. they are not meant to be equals or more powerful against each other on a solo basis
a squad works as a team to capture a point, vehicle and av players just do their own thing killing each other. if you removed vehicles and by default the need for av then the rest of the game would not change. you bring vehicle i bring av you bring vehicle i bring av and it repaeats constantly. meanwhile while we are not contributing to the fight(if we were not there then there would be more infantry on the ground capturing points) the rest of the infantry are still doing their job as usual.
we only currently need av to kill vehicles and we only need vehicles to give av something to shoot at (at the current state of things). if vehicles had their specific role rather than master of all things then this gives us more options and survivability on both sides. doing what i suggested would allow us to do this.
everyone seems to be all about themselves being able to solo whatever they desire and be uber powerful at it and no one is willing to compromise and its not helping the game.
remember the first dust trailers on how the game would be with tanks, lavs and dropships all working side by side with infantry. this is the only way i can see this happening. with the state the game is in currently, in that same video you would see every vehicle with a rail turret instantly blowing up, every infantry person on the ground getting run over by lav's or being mowed down by large blaster turrets and every dropship would be falling to the ground on fire for no apparent reason. |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
223
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Posted - 2013.08.25 12:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Chances Ghost wrote:i agree, tanks NEEDS to be infantry centric
infantry should want tanks around, they should be benificial to the team in many ways, but limited in others.
i see tanks being more important on open ground
tanks should be about defending their infantry, providing mobile cover and a place to hide, supporting infantry with cover fire and protecting them from enamy tanks
i think tanks need a damage reduction and a survivability boost (or an AV nerf causing a survivability boost) but their overall killing power should depend ont heir infantry.
the assaist machine you came up with is a nice representation of this.
thgey can still kill infantry, but they are more about focused firepower over a whole squad then a solo killing machine.
alone a tank should have trouble killing infantry off
in a squad the combine fire should make quick work of enamy infantry.
that would ensure a tank has a role, but isnt the be all end all bettlefield presence, as well as make sure that its not a complete pushover.
i think tanks should be more about defence than offence
i think that pretty much sums it up. they should with the combined fire of a squad its supporting be able to kill infantry at the same level as infantry can but when a tank comes it then excels at killing it or being killed by it. having tanks on the field for longer due to damage resist from infantry while reducing their effectiveness against them at the same time makes bigger longer battles over strategic points in the game possible. |
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
223
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Posted - 2013.08.25 12:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
more dps, more tank, more dps more tank over and over and mindless repetitive virtually insta killing on both sides is not what excites me about a game. its why i have gone off piracy in eve. i want the epic battles and stories to share |
ADAM-OF-EVE
Svartur Bjorn
224
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Posted - 2013.08.25 21:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
i can't see how any balancing in 1.5 is going to fix the current problems we have. its either going to make the gap worse or shift the problems from 1 side to the other |
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