DUST Search - Widen Speed Gaps Between Frames

Yun Hee Ryeon wrote:

Bojo The Mighty wrote:

Actually my sensors are pretty fine, it's just impossible for any scout to get their precision as low as their profile. I got 20 meter coverage and avoid ADV scanners just fine....

I am sneaky but guess what, LOS detects anything despite profile. There's no way you can prevent someone scraping their crosshairs over you by chance and picking up your chevron. Sure, Scouts are dastardly things when no one has detected them at all, but really a flawed system is working against us and lowering profile is not going to stop that.

You miss the thrust of my argument a little, Bojo. I'm not arguing in favor of lowering profile further; that aspect works fine. But, in my book, 20 meters should be basic, starting sensor coverage for light frames. Upgrade skills to extend out to 30, Gal Scout out to 40 (or a little more, depending on how the math works)-- enough to really see a lot of what's out there, hopefully before it sees you, and to notice when some little orange arrow is pointing your way.

Sure, you can still be spotted from further away. They get to hunt your butt using LOS, but you get to see where they're looking as long as they're within range, and you can maneuver accordingly. Put the "disappear" back in your appearing act.

What's more, if they haven't seen you, yet, you can try and work out a course to reach them that doesn't take you into line of sight until the last moment, either by using the ground mesh or the facilities. Sure, it won't work in every case, but picking your targets carefully is part and parcel of offing people as a scout, true?

I agree that there's an issue with scout resources versus logi resources, especially at the proto level (I really hate proto kin-cat shotgun logis; talk about role theft), but I'm not at all sure that greater speed is the answer. A recon unit need not be defined by speed-- and that seems like the Minnie scout's schtick, anyway. A stealth recon unit needs mostly to be able to see without being seen.

If we can limit the scan resolution of those damned hackable resources (which currently seem to detect freaking everything), we'll have the "without being seen" bit essentially down. The "see" bit could use some serious work, and I'm not talking about resolution; just range. Spy versus spy can wait; I'm more worried about spy versus random hostiles.

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Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1520	Posted - 2013.08.21 05:18:00 - [1] - Quote As a scout, I like my ability to outrun heavier frames. However it came to my realization, that I was only marginally faster, and I mean by a damn hair: G - Light MLT 162 Armor 87 Shields Speeds: 5.45 / 7.63 Stamina Specs: 200/ 18 recharge rate/ 20 Second Sprint Duration M - Medium MLT 169 Armor 187 Shields Speeds: 5.3 / 7.42 Stamina Specs: 200/ 15.3 recharge rate/ 17.5 second sprint duration That means at full sprint G Light covers 152.6 meters M Medium covers 129.85 meters Difference: 22.75 meters C Medium MLT 150 Armor 262 Shields Speeds: 5 / 7 Stamina Specs: 150/15 recharge rate/15 second sprint duration Now, we have our 3 factors. Looking between the Minmatar and Gallente suits here we find that the Gallente is a mere 22.75 meters ahead of the M Medium after a full sprint. That seems reasonable, the Gallente only has slightly less armor. But wait! The caldari is in fact, slower than the minmatar and has less armor! So, that means that innate armor appears to have nothing to do with innate speeds! It's just a relationship that seems to be slapped on. Caldari < Minmatar : Armor Caldari < Minmatar: Speed So that is an odd relationship, armor had nothing to do with the minmatar being faster than the caldari. Then why is the Gallente Light only barely ahead of the minmatar medium? The Minmatar medium has +100 shields, +7 armor, only for -0.15/-0.21 in speed. On top of that it has superior CPU by a lot but I won't go there. This is an issue. If something that has 107 more innate health than me is only 22.75 meters away from me, that is SMG range mind you, then who the hell wants to be a gallente light frame? CCP you must address these speed gaps amongst classes. They are far too small to have a scout prove viable because for a mere subtraction of up to .21 meters per second you can have 107 more health. This gap must be widened or scouts, gallente and amarr in the future in specific, will have no point in existence when a barely noticeable speed difference separates 107 health! Note This need not be light frame specific but I am not versed in the Heavy -> Medium world
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 3669	Posted - 2013.08.21 06:12:00 - [2] - Quote Agreed. This needs to be addressed.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1521	Posted - 2013.08.21 06:13:00 - [3] - Quote Updated to involve Militia Minmatar Light frame stats
Jimthefighter Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 13	Posted - 2013.08.21 15:00:00 - [4] - Quote Pretty much. There doesn't really seem to be an apriciable difference between walk speeds for the scouts and not a large enough difference for sprint speeds. A medium suit with way more base..... everything, should not be able to sprint/walk almost as fast as a scout suit. It should require some (more than one I'd hope) sprinting modules to achieve that. Otherwise, why scout?
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1009	Posted - 2013.08.21 15:11:00 - [5] - Quote please
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 680	Posted - 2013.08.21 15:21:00 - [6] - Quote This post is exactly the thing needed for scouts, they are way too slow for what they do. Scout, recon, CQC. On the note of Speed, crouch speed needs to be faster. You move at like .5-1 meters per second when you crouch. It should be like a fourth of your walk speed lost.
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 375	Posted - 2013.08.21 16:54:00 - [7] - Quote Solid post. The Gallente scout does feel incredibly slow. I know that unless I am running at least an enhanced kin/cat I don't even feel like a scout. Given the stamina delay, the minimal increased speed relative to the medium frames, and the odd lagging/large hitbox, most of the time my scout feels like nothing more than a super squishy medium frame. There have been a number of good threads on scout deficiencies in the Uprising build, and things have been consolidated in the CPM scout post, and it even seems like scouts are recognized to need some tweaks. I only hope that speed is the primary characteristic which is focused on for these upcoming tweaks (increased scanning would help also.) To be honest I can live without more heath, more slots, more EQ, more CPU/PG..... but really, to be a scout you need speed, stealth and situational awareness. And right now we really don't have a measurable advantage over other suits in those areas.
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 601	Posted - 2013.08.21 17:16:00 - [8] - Quote Great stuff, Bojo! Aeon's earlier tests demonstrated that the severity of hitbox displacement was directly related to sprint speed. That said, I suspect that mechanics/performance may have necessitated a speed cap on Scouts. If so, it would make sense to slow down other frames, such that a meaningful speed gap could be attained. - Shotty
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1532	Posted - 2013.08.21 18:45:00 - [9] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Great stuff, Bojo! Aeon's earlier tests demonstrated that the severity of hitbox displacement was directly related to sprint speed. That said, I suspect that mechanics/performance may have necessitated a speed cap on Scouts. If so, it would make sense to slow down other frames, such that a meaningful speed gap could be attained. - Shotty Yes this is true. I was thinking that a way to go about this is to group suits of the same frame closer together in speed but that would sort of defeat any advantages gained by using Minmatar suits. The best solution is to A) Do serious hitbox work. When bugs have been abolished, speed up scouts and mediums but according to plan so speed gaps are greater and then do some more hitbox work because we all know it will still be an issue. I'm not tech savvy so....
Cosgar ParagonX 4481	Posted - 2013.08.21 18:49:00 - [10] - Quote I feel like the Devs got it right the first time with Uprising 1.0 when scouts were crazy fast. Definitely a call back to Replications when scouts were something that you had to be afraid of. Nerfing the only advantage scouts had makes me wonder about the direction this game is going.

Epicsting pro Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 183	Posted - 2013.08.21 19:03:00 - [11] - Quote Amarr scout FTW it should leave a trail of fire behind him. It be a laser light show.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1536	Posted - 2013.08.21 21:47:00 - [12] - Quote Epicsting pro wrote: Amarr scout FTW it should leave a trail of fire behind him. It be a laser light show. Yes, I am looking out for Amarr Scouts. Imagine how slow and close to the Minmatar Medium they would be. It would be wasteful unless speed gaps are widened.
Ruthless Lee The Eliminators 46	Posted - 2013.08.21 23:44:00 - [13] - Quote Right on, Bojo! As a Gallente Scout, I heartily approve of this message...
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1546	Posted - 2013.08.22 18:52:00 - [14] - Quote Yeah, this is primarily for the gallente scouts, because lord knows we are at odds.
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1023	Posted - 2013.08.23 14:07:00 - [15] - Quote also minja is supposed to be faster :P so if yall get a speed increasei wants one too.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1557	Posted - 2013.08.23 17:36:00 - [16] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: also minja is supposed to be faster :P so if yall get a speed increasei wants one too. at least the difference between Minja and Ganja is 37 HP, and not 107.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1574	Posted - 2013.08.26 18:47:00 - [17] - Quote this is necessary folks!
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster 818	Posted - 2013.08.28 15:12:00 - [18] - Quote Yeah, I'd like a speed buff. I can only get to about 11.4 meters per sec if I remove everything.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1048	Posted - 2013.08.28 15:19:00 - [19] - Quote Confirming Sinboto Simmons is a ninja... want proof... well you wont find any... because hes a ninja
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1634	Posted - 2013.08.29 23:07:00 - [20] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: Confirming Sinboto Simmons is a ninja... want proof... well you wont find any... because hes a ninja OK, for one thing Sinboto is not as ninja as DTO because DTO does not leave a forum presence as much a sinboto does. Anyways I still find that we need speed gaps to be widened.

Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1090	Posted - 2013.08.30 02:23:00 - [21] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: ChromeBreaker wrote: Confirming Sinboto Simmons is a ninja... want proof... well you wont find any... because hes a ninja OK, for one thing Sinboto is not as ninja as DTO because DTO does not leave a forum presence as much a sinboto does. Anyways I still find that we need speed gaps to be widened. T_T Also yes speed needs a look see
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 1660	Posted - 2013.09.04 21:22:00 - [22] - Quote With the new aiming, scouts are getting SHREDDED It is imperative to WSGBF, for the survival of the lightest frame.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 2122	Posted - 2013.10.05 18:07:00 - [23] - Quote This can't be forgotten! Most scouts tell me that Speed Tanking is dead because it's wasted space, the difference doesn't make a difference. Something to do with AA. IDK, but a basal speed buff could result in a further potent speed tank ability but I don't think it should be overdone, Don't want OP scouts
Smooth Assassin Stardust incorporation 213	Posted - 2013.10.05 23:36:00 - [24] - Quote Someone who understands me and that scouts are nothing less than medium frames because of medium frames can wear speed mods.
Joel II X AHPA 10	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:31:00 - [25] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: This can't be forgotten! Most scouts tell me that Speed Tanking is dead because it's wasted space, the difference doesn't make a difference. Something to do with AA. IDK, but a basal speed buff could result in a further potent speed tank ability but I don't think it should be overdone, Don't want OP scouts LOL OP scouts. I don't think that's possible if I die within 2-3 seconds of someone pulling the trigger. Sometimes, even less.
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 304	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:50:00 - [26] - Quote This may be deemed heresy, but ... actually, I don't see that the Gal Scout (which I admittedly run as an alternative fit rather than a primary) is really designed to speed tank. More, "I am sneakier than you, see more than you, and can find that one hole to slip through your defenses and shotgun you in the small of the back." It's stealth-tanked, benefitting from short moves from cover to cover while the Minja is sprinting from A to B and usually only actively seeking cover when taking fire. It's less "ZOOOOOOM," more "sneak, sneak, sneak, BLAM, sneak, sneak." I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, Bojo, but I think I'd rather see a scout buff in the form of expanded sensor coverage than a speed boost. Make us (and especially Gallente) more ... y'know ... scout-ish.
Joel II X AHPA 11	Posted - 2013.10.06 01:54:00 - [27] - Quote Yun Hee Ryeon wrote: This may be deemed heresy, but ... actually, I don't see that the Gal Scout (which I admittedly run as an alternative fit rather than a primary) is really designed to speed tank. More, "I am sneakier than you, see more than you, and can find that one hole to slip through your defenses and shotgun you in the small of the back." It's stealth-tanked, benefitting from short moves from cover to cover while the Minja is sprinting from A to B and usually only actively seeking cover when taking fire. It's less "ZOOOOOOM," more "sneak, sneak, sneak, BLAM, sneak, sneak." I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, Bojo, but I think I'd rather see a scout buff in the form of expanded sensor coverage than a speed boost. Make us (and especially Gallente) more ... y'know ... scout-ish. While I do agree with everything you said, all scouts need a slight speed buff. I should be able to catch up to a sprinting heavy that's 15 meters away quite easily without kincats.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 2132	Posted - 2013.10.06 15:36:00 - [28] - Quote Yun Hee Ryeon wrote: This may be deemed heresy, but ... actually, I don't see that the Gal Scout (which I admittedly run as an alternative fit rather than a primary) is really designed to speed tank. More, "I am sneakier than you, see more than you, and can find that one hole to slip through your defenses and shotgun you in the small of the back." It's stealth-tanked, benefitting from short moves from cover to cover while the Minja is sprinting from A to B and usually only actively seeking cover when taking fire. It's less "ZOOOOOOM," more "sneak, sneak, sneak, BLAM, sneak, sneak." I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, Bojo, but I think I'd rather see a scout buff in the form of expanded sensor coverage than a speed boost. Make us (and especially Gallente) more ... y'know ... scout-ish. Actually my sensors are pretty fine, it's just impossible for any scout to get their precision as low as their profile. I got 20 meter coverage and avoid ADV scanners just fine. However it's my inability to escape an HMG or AR that reall gets me. I go up close, make a racket, then I pull out and an HMG tears through my armor in less than a second an I die. I rarely make getaways as a Gallente Scout it's just out of my reach all the time. A Minmatar Logi is like an Upgraded Gallente Scout. Supreme shields, innate armor repair, fastest hacking, tons of equipment (but no sidearm!), much better module count/lineage, better CPU/PG, and only subpar in speed by a hair. I am sneaky but guess what, LOS detects anything despite profile. There's no way you can prevent someone scraping their crosshairs over you by chance and picking up your chevron. Sure, Scouts are dastardly things when no one has detected them at all, but really a flawed system is working against us and lowering profile is not going to stop that. I don't speed tank at all actually I dedicate most my resources to stealth mods, shields, and armor reps. I honestly feel forced to play Ground Thumper because I am not like assassin material. I don't have speed mods I can't be The Blur. I get to be The Inverted Magic Trick; now you don't see me, oh now you do.
Ranger SnakeBlood OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 214	Posted - 2013.10.06 20:50:00 - [29] - Quote Well that is something i would see as a issue with the game scouts are getting screwed because the stealth class is poping up on tacnet with out any situational awareness by the guy who gets saved by it, iam fairly sure we have sencors on our backs as a few people the odd time have successfully got behind me with out me knowing but pop up on tac net i only take notice to this because its something i pride myself in being aware of my surroundings. A over haul to tac net would go along way to improving the game intel should not be given passively it should be active or at least module required to do it passivly, scouts should have bonuses to this and avoiding it in general. Also a active ability to spot a enemy for your squad like in battlefield would be a preferable base tacnet. As for the speed in my opinion scouts are plenty fast and some are more or less unhitable at close range mind you i may be biased as i play with aim assist off and use controller, The frames have speed (and hp) flaws either way. Lights seemd good but could use more spint for speed for getting into range faster, Assualt needs base movement slowed a bit to a more combat pace but sprint stay as it is. Logi need some sort of fix to stop them brick tanking and a comparable slow down to the assualt. Heavy needs to be even slower than they are sprint and base but also need a large buff to hp to make them proper heavy it should take hit and run tactics to kill a heavy no head to head not even with a masive "skill" difference. I may be biased and dont realize it so just in case iam a minmatar Assault that uses AR
Yun Hee Ryeon Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 304	Posted - 2013.10.06 22:21:00 - [30] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Actually my sensors are pretty fine, it's just impossible for any scout to get their precision as low as their profile. I got 20 meter coverage and avoid ADV scanners just fine.... I am sneaky but guess what, LOS detects anything despite profile. There's no way you can prevent someone scraping their crosshairs over you by chance and picking up your chevron. Sure, Scouts are dastardly things when no one has detected them at all, but really a flawed system is working against us and lowering profile is not going to stop that. You miss the thrust of my argument a little, Bojo. I'm not arguing in favor of lowering profile further; that aspect works fine. But, in my book, 20 meters should be basic, starting sensor coverage for light frames. Upgrade skills to extend out to 30, Gal Scout out to 40 (or a little more, depending on how the math works)-- enough to really see a lot of what's out there, hopefully before it sees you, and to notice when some little orange arrow is pointing your way. Sure, you can still be spotted from further away. They get to hunt your butt using LOS, but you get to see where they're looking as long as they're within range, and you can maneuver accordingly. Put the "disappear" back in your appearing act. What's more, if they haven't seen you, yet, you can try and work out a course to reach them that doesn't take you into line of sight until the last moment, either by using the ground mesh or the facilities. Sure, it won't work in every case, but picking your targets carefully is part and parcel of offing people as a scout, true? I agree that there's an issue with scout resources versus logi resources, especially at the proto level (I really hate proto kin-cat shotgun logis; talk about role theft), but I'm not at all sure that greater speed is the answer. A recon unit need not be defined by speed-- and that seems like the Minnie scout's schtick, anyway. A stealth recon unit needs mostly to be able to see without being seen. If we can limit the scan resolution of those damned hackable resources (which currently seem to detect freaking everything), we'll have the "without being seen" bit essentially down. The "see" bit could use some serious work, and I'm not talking about resolution; just range. Spy versus spy can wait; I'm more worried about spy versus random hostiles.

Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 2133	Posted - 2013.10.07 00:09:00 - [31] - Quote Oh no I am in agreement on a buff base scan radius, but even then we could have way powerful range in just one complex mod. No I am looking at this from the inevitable confrontation stand point. If a scout runs into a situation (lets say by accident) they should be able to run away from said confrontation when the scout realizes the level of severity. Honestly scouts are tissue paper there's not a second to lose when you're getting pummeled by AR's and HMGs, but it just seems like a feeble attempt. It seems like I can only gain barely more than a meter per second from the heavy. All they need to do is sprint- follow me to an optimum location and lay down the fire, and in a straight away or short turn radius I am doomed. Not saying heavies are a large problem but they can cut through scouts very fast sometimes. What I am saying is that our lack of health doesn't seem to warrant this kind of speed.
Meeko Fent DUST University Ivy League 1077	Posted - 2013.10.07 00:55:00 - [32] - Quote Let the Scouts live once more!
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 156	Posted - 2013.10.09 15:49:00 - [33] - Quote Would this achieve the desired effect? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114616&find=unread Wanted to post directly to this thread, but couldn't find it. Got pushed further back than I thought it had.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 2164	Posted - 2013.10.09 20:50:00 - [34] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Would this achieve the desired effect? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114616&find=unread Wanted to post directly to this thread, but couldn't find it. Got pushed further back than I thought it had. Yes, those look like some wonderful number breakdowns.... +1
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 157	Posted - 2013.10.09 22:44:00 - [35] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Yes, those look like some wonderful number breakdowns.... +1 Thanks! Unfortunately it doesn't look like anybody else shares your opinion. Oh well. Can't say I didn't try, at least.
Ghost Kaisar Pradox One 466	Posted - 2013.10.10 00:26:00 - [36] - Quote Yun Hee Ryeon wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Actually my sensors are pretty fine, it's just impossible for any scout to get their precision as low as their profile. I got 20 meter coverage and avoid ADV scanners just fine.... I am sneaky but guess what, LOS detects anything despite profile. There's no way you can prevent someone scraping their crosshairs over you by chance and picking up your chevron. Sure, Scouts are dastardly things when no one has detected them at all, but really a flawed system is working against us and lowering profile is not going to stop that. You miss the thrust of my argument a little, Bojo. I'm not arguing in favor of lowering profile further; that aspect works fine. But, in my book, 20 meters should be basic, starting sensor coverage for light frames. Upgrade skills to extend out to 30, Gal Scout out to 40 (or a little more, depending on how the math works)-- enough to really see a lot of what's out there, hopefully before it sees you, and to notice when some little orange arrow is pointing your way. Sure, you can still be spotted from further away. They get to hunt your butt using LOS, but you get to see where they're looking as long as they're within range, and you can maneuver accordingly. Put the "disappear" back in your appearing act. What's more, if they haven't seen you, yet, you can try and work out a course to reach them that doesn't take you into line of sight until the last moment, either by using the ground mesh or the facilities. Sure, it won't work in every case, but picking your targets carefully is part and parcel of offing people as a scout, true? I agree that there's an issue with scout resources versus logi resources, especially at the proto level (I really hate proto kin-cat shotgun logis; talk about role theft), but I'm not at all sure that greater speed is the answer. A recon unit need not be defined by speed-- and that seems like the Minnie scout's schtick, anyway. A stealth recon unit needs mostly to be able to see without being seen. If we can limit the scan resolution of those damned hackable resources (which currently seem to detect freaking everything), we'll have the "without being seen" bit essentially down. The "see" bit could use some serious work, and I'm not talking about resolution; just range. Spy versus spy can wait; I'm more worried about spy versus random hostiles. A solid post. +1 for you. I'm going to speak on the behalf of the Minmatar Scout. The Minmatar Scout has higher speed for a couple reasons: 1.) It's Minmatar. They are supposed to be fast. 2.) It's a Hit and Run CQC Role. The Minmatar Scout is made to do one thing. Get a quick, undetected flank on an enemy, and then proceed to make all hell break loose in the middle of the enemy squad. This is why they are given the knives bonus. Knives are silent, and in most cases, kill in an instant on an unsuspecting opponent. They are shield tanked to allow them to return to combat faster (hit and run), but suffer from low eHP to make stay's in hostile territory dangerous. However, the current Minmatar Scout suffers from a problem. A SPEED problem. Hit and run doesn't work. Why? Because it's hit and die right now. You either have to kill EVERYONE, because even if you kill only 1 or 2 targets before running away, in most cases, the other members in the squad will gun you down before you can reach safety. Minmatar Scouts need either an HP buff, or a speed buff, because the scout is supposed to use his speed to make good his escape, and if this isn't happening, he either needs more speed (to get away), or more health (to survive long enough TO get away.)
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 2166	Posted - 2013.10.10 00:44:00 - [37] - Quote Light Frames should all share the trait of being the fastest and the minmatar light the king in it's rightful throne at that class for speed. I'm not saying that a defining racial characteristic should be removed, but the light frames are lacking in Speed when compared to the abilities of medium frames.


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