DUST Search - [Feedback] The problem with the Gallente assault

Justin Tymes wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

Jathniel wrote:

Ok.
Good research done OP. You have a clear understanding of the numbers involved.

Being fully skilled into Gallente suits, I have a clear understanding of those numbers in action on the field, so I'll weigh in a little bit.

Gallente Suit playstyle:
- Gallente Logi suits are VERY slow. Because of that inability to change engagement distance at will, they are best played at mid-range, and watching allied flanks. I usually go with 2 reps and 3 armor plates. Anything else in my lows feels like a waste.

- Gallente Assault suits are much faster than the Logi counterparts. You can flank, rush, and engage from any distance, and make quick escapes if needed. Paying attention and using the environment CAN make up for the native armor rep not being there. When you attack, as Gallente, GO FOR THE KILL, and do not make the firefight drag on, because your armor is not designed for that. You have a higher chance of winning the brawl itself because utility weapons are weaker vs. armor, but if you let the fight drag on, by doing little strafe fights here and there, it won't work out for you.

Gallente vs. Caldari
- I agree that the Gallente assault bonus of reduction to hybrid weapon cpu use is of little benefit.... the BIGGEST reason being because the Gallente suits are the absolute best when combined with laser weaponry, NOT hybrid.
A spec'd Gallente Assault/Logi suit with a spec'd Scrambler Rifle or Assault Scrambler Rifle WILL WITHOUT FAIL out-dps and kill a Caldari suit using an AR. The numbers are on your side, and if you have sufficient skill, you WILL win EVERY time.
AR is weakened vs. armor. even with proficiency, most Caldari suit users don't like to utilize damage mods, preffering to rely on their shield tank.
SCR is powerful vs. shields. add proficiency and damage mods to this equation, since you do not require shield defense, and you will chew through 400-500+ shield HP, in nearly a 1/6 to 1/4 the time it'll take for that Caldari to chew through your armor.
The key is to close the gap on that caldari player fast. Catch him and he's dead, but you can't afford to let the fight drag on.
The armor bonus coming 1.4 is only going to further guarantee the outcome.

TL;DR
Gallente suits w/ scrambler rifles and assault scrambler rifles have the advantage vs. Caldari suits w/ assault rifles. The Gallente weakness comes in, because it's grossly weak vs. everything else. A different passive skill bonus for the Gal assault suit would make the difference.

The logi can fit just one kinetic calalyzer and surpass the speed of the assault, and still have more HP thanks to having one more slot, and the repair bonus. 1 more slot than assault (can be used for an extra plate), and one less slot needed for an armor repairer because of the bonus (meaning a slot can be used for a kinetic catalyzer), the result is both more HP more speed.

Yes the Caldari suits are weak against laser weaponry, but that is countered by the fact that Gallente suits are even weaker against explosive weaponry. A Caldari assault with mass driver would wreck a Gallente assault with an assault scramber rifle. Also there is nothing about the Gallente assault that makes it better for the scrambler rifle than any other suit with the scrambler rifle.

The main niche of the Gallente suit is the ability to fit proto EQ without losing too much bulk. If we were to give them 1 less Low slot than a Gallente Assault, it would completely make them bad Amarrs.

Plus no side-arm hurts like hell.


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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5498	Posted - 2013.08.21 02:40:00 - [1] - Quote I will explain why it sucks [Assault vs logistics]: Consider that the Gallente logistics gets 1 more low slot, AND a 5hp/s armor repair bonus which is basically a free built in complex armor repair module. This means not only can the logi tank more HP, it can use 1 less slot on an armor repairer, while the assault has less slots to armor tank AND needs to use up one more of its few slots compared to the logi for an armor repairer. Logi: doesn't need to use as many slots on armor repairer, meaning 1 more free slot for tanking, plus there is the extra low slow the logi gets compared to the assault. assault: The Gallente logi has less speed, and 25 less stamina. Some would argue (formerly myself) that the reduced speed and stamina of the Gallente logi compared to the assault makes up for the apparent superiority of the Gallente logi, but the Gallente logi can easily surpass the assault's speed with an enhanced kinetic catalyzer, AND still have more slots left for armor tanking than the assault; this is because thanks to the logistics repair bonus, Gallente logis don't need to fit an armor repairer module, unlike the Gallente assault. In such a situation the Gallente logi would still have 25 more stamina, but that doesn't make up for it. Alternatively, a militia stamina mod could be used instead of the speed mod, and the Gallente logi could surpass the stamina of the Gallente assault. What does the Gallente assault get to make up for that? a shield repair bonus, which is pretty much useless for an armor-tanking suit. [Gallente vs Caldari] Now, lets consider the Gallente assault suit by comparing it to its Caldari counterpart. In base stats they're almost the same, but Gallente assaults are inferior in base shield recharge, greater shield recharge delay, and have no advantage compared to Caldari assault; I suppose the better shield recharge stat makes senses considering the Caldari assault is for shield tanking, but there are no advantages to using the Gallente instead of the Caldari assaults. The need to fit n armor repairer and speed penalty limits the armor tanking potential of the Gallente assault, while the shield-tanking Caldari assault doesn't need to worry about such concerns. On top of that the Caldari assault has the amazing 25% shield extender bonus to tank even more without sacrifice. What does the Gallente assault get? just some PG/CPU reduction thing for hybrid weapons. When fitting, the Caldari suits can always use a CPU extender on their low slots to squeeze in what they need without sacrificing shield tanking (which are high slots). The Gallente however cannot do the same with PG modules since such modules are low slots, and thus requires the player to give up a slot that would otherwise be used for armor tanking. The result is that a prototype Caldari assault can fit much more prototype weapons and gear compared to the Gallente assault, which will have to be frugal with its use of PG/CPU, and the Gallente assault will ultimately have an inferior fit compared to the Caldari one. [Solution]: The assault bonus to shield repair needs to be changed to something benefitting ALL assaults, not just shield users; I propose a 1% (or 2%) damage bonus per level to light weapons since assaults are suppose to be about offense. The Gallente assault needs more base speed than the Caldari to make up for the eventual loss of speed that comes from armor tanking. The Gallente assault bonus needs to be changed to a armor plate efficacy bonus so that it won't be useless in tanking compared to its logistics counterpart. Introducing a new PG module for high slots, it could give a bit less PG then a regular PG module, but it could have another feature besides increasing PG (like the vehicle power diagnostics module). The kitty cat deserves justice.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5498	Posted - 2013.08.21 03:02:00 - [2] - Quote Updated OP a bit
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5503	Posted - 2013.08.21 17:08:00 - [3] - Quote shaman oga wrote: I agree on different bonus, but not on damage, less CPU/PG usage for weapons or more stamina, but nothing that affect damage or eHP. Does that mean you want a change to the Cal assault's bonus? it effects eHP
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5587	Posted - 2013.08.29 20:11:00 - [4] - Quote Still severely underpowered.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5587	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:47:00 - [5] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Ok. Good research done OP. You have a clear understanding of the numbers involved. Being fully skilled into Gallente suits, I have a clear understanding of those numbers in action on the field, so I'll weigh in a little bit. Gallente Suit playstyle: - Gallente Logi suits are VERY slow. Because of that inability to change engagement distance at will, they are best played at mid-range, and watching allied flanks. I usually go with 2 reps and 3 armor plates. Anything else in my lows feels like a waste. - Gallente Assault suits are much faster than the Logi counterparts. You can flank, rush, and engage from any distance, and make quick escapes if needed. Paying attention and using the environment CAN make up for the native armor rep not being there. When you attack, as Gallente, GO FOR THE KILL, and do not make the firefight drag on, because your armor is not designed for that. You have a higher chance of winning the brawl itself because utility weapons are weaker vs. armor, but if you let the fight drag on, by doing little strafe fights here and there, it won't work out for you. Gallente vs. Caldari - I agree that the Gallente assault bonus of reduction to hybrid weapon cpu use is of little benefit.... the BIGGEST reason being because the Gallente suits are the absolute best when combined with laser weaponry, NOT hybrid. A spec'd Gallente Assault/Logi suit with a spec'd Scrambler Rifle or Assault Scrambler Rifle WILL WITHOUT FAIL out-dps and kill a Caldari suit using an AR. The numbers are on your side, and if you have sufficient skill, you WILL win EVERY time. AR is weakened vs. armor. even with proficiency, most Caldari suit users don't like to utilize damage mods, preffering to rely on their shield tank. SCR is powerful vs. shields. add proficiency and damage mods to this equation, since you do not require shield defense, and you will chew through 400-500+ shield HP, in nearly a 1/6 to 1/4 the time it'll take for that Caldari to chew through your armor. The key is to close the gap on that caldari player fast. Catch him and he's dead, but you can't afford to let the fight drag on. The armor bonus coming 1.4 is only going to further guarantee the outcome. TL;DR Gallente suits w/ scrambler rifles and assault scrambler rifles have the advantage vs. Caldari suits w/ assault rifles. The Gallente weakness comes in, because it's grossly weak vs. everything else. A different passive skill bonus for the Gal assault suit would make the difference. The logi can fit just one kinetic calalyzer and surpass the speed of the assault, and still have more HP thanks to having one more slot, and the repair bonus. 1 more slot than assault (can be used for an extra plate), and one less slot needed for an armor repairer because of the bonus (meaning a slot can be used for a kinetic catalyzer), the result is both more HP more speed. Yes the Caldari suits are weak against laser weaponry, but that is countered by the fact that Gallente suits are even weaker against explosive weaponry. A Caldari assault with mass driver would wreck a Gallente assault with an assault scramber rifle. Also there is nothing about the Gallente assault that makes it better for the scrambler rifle than any other suit with the scrambler rifle.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5603	Posted - 2013.08.30 15:05:00 - [6] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Stuff Alright, the assault have the strafe advantage, but your weapon logic still makes no sense. I said the Gallente assault has no advantage in USING the scrambler rifle, the fact that it is resistant against scrambler rifles and other laser weapons is irrelevant since a Gallente assault won't be shooting itself. A scrambler rifle is not any deadlier in the hands of a Gallente assault, a Caldari assault, or a Minmatar assault. Any advantage the suit itself has to a particular weapon type (lasers) is already balanced by its weakness to another weapon type (explosives). Every suit has their own strengths and weaknesses against particular weapon types anyway, so being strong against lasers is already balanced out; frankly the weakness against explosives weighs much more on the suit. You dismiss the use of Caldari assaults with mass drivers being used against Gallente assaults with scrambler rifles as circumstantial, but so is your example of Gallente assault with scrambler rifle vs Caldari assault with AR; not every Caldari assault uses ARs, and not every Gallente assault uses a scrambler rifle.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5603	Posted - 2013.08.30 15:18:00 - [7] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Jathniel wrote: Ok. Good research done OP. You have a clear understanding of the numbers involved. Being fully skilled into Gallente suits, I have a clear understanding of those numbers in action on the field, so I'll weigh in a little bit. Gallente Suit playstyle: - Gallente Logi suits are VERY slow. Because of that inability to change engagement distance at will, they are best played at mid-range, and watching allied flanks. I usually go with 2 reps and 3 armor plates. Anything else in my lows feels like a waste. - Gallente Assault suits are much faster than the Logi counterparts. You can flank, rush, and engage from any distance, and make quick escapes if needed. Paying attention and using the environment CAN make up for the native armor rep not being there. When you attack, as Gallente, GO FOR THE KILL, and do not make the firefight drag on, because your armor is not designed for that. You have a higher chance of winning the brawl itself because utility weapons are weaker vs. armor, but if you let the fight drag on, by doing little strafe fights here and there, it won't work out for you. Gallente vs. Caldari - I agree that the Gallente assault bonus of reduction to hybrid weapon cpu use is of little benefit.... the BIGGEST reason being because the Gallente suits are the absolute best when combined with laser weaponry, NOT hybrid. A spec'd Gallente Assault/Logi suit with a spec'd Scrambler Rifle or Assault Scrambler Rifle WILL WITHOUT FAIL out-dps and kill a Caldari suit using an AR. The numbers are on your side, and if you have sufficient skill, you WILL win EVERY time. AR is weakened vs. armor. even with proficiency, most Caldari suit users don't like to utilize damage mods, preffering to rely on their shield tank. SCR is powerful vs. shields. add proficiency and damage mods to this equation, since you do not require shield defense, and you will chew through 400-500+ shield HP, in nearly a 1/6 to 1/4 the time it'll take for that Caldari to chew through your armor. The key is to close the gap on that caldari player fast. Catch him and he's dead, but you can't afford to let the fight drag on. The armor bonus coming 1.4 is only going to further guarantee the outcome. TL;DR Gallente suits w/ scrambler rifles and assault scrambler rifles have the advantage vs. Caldari suits w/ assault rifles. The Gallente weakness comes in, because it's grossly weak vs. everything else. A different passive skill bonus for the Gal assault suit would make the difference. The logi can fit just one kinetic calalyzer and surpass the speed of the assault, and still have more HP thanks to having one more slot, and the repair bonus. 1 more slot than assault (can be used for an extra plate), and one less slot needed for an armor repairer because of the bonus (meaning a slot can be used for a kinetic catalyzer), the result is both more HP more speed. Yes the Caldari suits are weak against laser weaponry, but that is countered by the fact that Gallente suits are even weaker against explosive weaponry. A Caldari assault with mass driver would wreck a Gallente assault with an assault scramber rifle. Also there is nothing about the Gallente assault that makes it better for the scrambler rifle than any other suit with the scrambler rifle. The main niche of the Gallente suit is the ability to fit proto EQ without losing too much bulk. If we were to give them 1 less Low slot than a Gallente Assault, it would completely make them bad Amarrs. Plus no side-arm hurts like hell. I'm not suggesting nerfing the Gal logi.