DUST Search - [Feedback] The problem with the Gallente assault

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

Jathniel wrote:

Ok.
Good research done OP. You have a clear understanding of the numbers involved.

Being fully skilled into Gallente suits, I have a clear understanding of those numbers in action on the field, so I'll weigh in a little bit.

Gallente Suit playstyle:
- Gallente Logi suits are VERY slow. Because of that inability to change engagement distance at will, they are best played at mid-range, and watching allied flanks. I usually go with 2 reps and 3 armor plates. Anything else in my lows feels like a waste.

- Gallente Assault suits are much faster than the Logi counterparts. You can flank, rush, and engage from any distance, and make quick escapes if needed. Paying attention and using the environment CAN make up for the native armor rep not being there. When you attack, as Gallente, GO FOR THE KILL, and do not make the firefight drag on, because your armor is not designed for that. You have a higher chance of winning the brawl itself because utility weapons are weaker vs. armor, but if you let the fight drag on, by doing little strafe fights here and there, it won't work out for you.

Gallente vs. Caldari
- I agree that the Gallente assault bonus of reduction to hybrid weapon cpu use is of little benefit.... the BIGGEST reason being because the Gallente suits are the absolute best when combined with laser weaponry, NOT hybrid.
A spec'd Gallente Assault/Logi suit with a spec'd Scrambler Rifle or Assault Scrambler Rifle WILL WITHOUT FAIL out-dps and kill a Caldari suit using an AR. The numbers are on your side, and if you have sufficient skill, you WILL win EVERY time.
AR is weakened vs. armor. even with proficiency, most Caldari suit users don't like to utilize damage mods, preffering to rely on their shield tank.
SCR is powerful vs. shields. add proficiency and damage mods to this equation, since you do not require shield defense, and you will chew through 400-500+ shield HP, in nearly a 1/6 to 1/4 the time it'll take for that Caldari to chew through your armor.
The key is to close the gap on that caldari player fast. Catch him and he's dead, but you can't afford to let the fight drag on.
The armor bonus coming 1.4 is only going to further guarantee the outcome.

TL;DR
Gallente suits w/ scrambler rifles and assault scrambler rifles have the advantage vs. Caldari suits w/ assault rifles. The Gallente weakness comes in, because it's grossly weak vs. everything else. A different passive skill bonus for the Gal assault suit would make the difference.

The logi can fit just one kinetic calalyzer and surpass the speed of the assault, and still have more HP thanks to having one more slot, and the repair bonus. 1 more slot than assault (can be used for an extra plate), and one less slot needed for an armor repairer because of the bonus (meaning a slot can be used for a kinetic catalyzer), the result is both more HP more speed.

Yes the Caldari suits are weak against laser weaponry, but that is countered by the fact that Gallente suits are even weaker against explosive weaponry. A Caldari assault with mass driver would wreck a Gallente assault with an assault scramber rifle. Also there is nothing about the Gallente assault that makes it better for the scrambler rifle than any other suit with the scrambler rifle.


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Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 807	Posted - 2013.08.29 21:08:00 - [1] - Quote Ok. Good research done OP. You have a clear understanding of the numbers involved. Being fully skilled into Gallente suits, I have a clear understanding of those numbers in action on the field, so I'll weigh in a little bit. Gallente Suit playstyle: - Gallente Logi suits are VERY slow. Because of that inability to change engagement distance at will, they are best played at mid-range, and watching allied flanks. I usually go with 2 reps and 3 armor plates. Anything else in my lows feels like a waste. - Gallente Assault suits are much faster than the Logi counterparts. You can flank, rush, and engage from any distance, and make quick escapes if needed. Paying attention and using the environment CAN make up for the native armor rep not being there. When you attack, as Gallente, GO FOR THE KILL, and do not make the firefight drag on, because your armor is not designed for that. You have a higher chance of winning the brawl itself because utility weapons are weaker vs. armor, but if you let the fight drag on, by doing little strafe fights here and there, it won't work out for you. Gallente vs. Caldari - I agree that the Gallente assault bonus of reduction to hybrid weapon cpu use is of little benefit.... the BIGGEST reason being because the Gallente suits are the absolute best when combined with laser weaponry, NOT hybrid. A spec'd Gallente Assault/Logi suit with a spec'd Scrambler Rifle or Assault Scrambler Rifle WILL WITHOUT FAIL out-dps and kill a Caldari suit using an AR. The numbers are on your side, and if you have sufficient skill, you WILL win EVERY time. AR is weakened vs. armor. even with proficiency, most Caldari suit users don't like to utilize damage mods, preffering to rely on their shield tank. SCR is powerful vs. shields. add proficiency and damage mods to this equation, since you do not require shield defense, and you will chew through 400-500+ shield HP, in nearly a 1/6 to 1/4 the time it'll take for that Caldari to chew through your armor. The key is to close the gap on that caldari player fast. Catch him and he's dead, but you can't afford to let the fight drag on. The armor bonus coming 1.4 is only going to further guarantee the outcome. TL;DR Gallente suits w/ scrambler rifles and assault scrambler rifles have the advantage vs. Caldari suits w/ assault rifles. The Gallente weakness comes in, because it's grossly weak vs. everything else. A different passive skill bonus for the Gal assault suit would make the difference.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 807	Posted - 2013.08.29 23:47:00 - [2] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Jathniel wrote: Ok. Good research done OP. You have a clear understanding of the numbers involved. Being fully skilled into Gallente suits, I have a clear understanding of those numbers in action on the field, so I'll weigh in a little bit. Gallente Suit playstyle: - Gallente Logi suits are VERY slow. Because of that inability to change engagement distance at will, they are best played at mid-range, and watching allied flanks. I usually go with 2 reps and 3 armor plates. Anything else in my lows feels like a waste. - Gallente Assault suits are much faster than the Logi counterparts. You can flank, rush, and engage from any distance, and make quick escapes if needed. Paying attention and using the environment CAN make up for the native armor rep not being there. When you attack, as Gallente, GO FOR THE KILL, and do not make the firefight drag on, because your armor is not designed for that. You have a higher chance of winning the brawl itself because utility weapons are weaker vs. armor, but if you let the fight drag on, by doing little strafe fights here and there, it won't work out for you. Gallente vs. Caldari - I agree that the Gallente assault bonus of reduction to hybrid weapon cpu use is of little benefit.... the BIGGEST reason being because the Gallente suits are the absolute best when combined with laser weaponry, NOT hybrid. A spec'd Gallente Assault/Logi suit with a spec'd Scrambler Rifle or Assault Scrambler Rifle WILL WITHOUT FAIL out-dps and kill a Caldari suit using an AR. The numbers are on your side, and if you have sufficient skill, you WILL win EVERY time. AR is weakened vs. armor. even with proficiency, most Caldari suit users don't like to utilize damage mods, preffering to rely on their shield tank. SCR is powerful vs. shields. add proficiency and damage mods to this equation, since you do not require shield defense, and you will chew through 400-500+ shield HP, in nearly a 1/6 to 1/4 the time it'll take for that Caldari to chew through your armor. The key is to close the gap on that caldari player fast. Catch him and he's dead, but you can't afford to let the fight drag on. The armor bonus coming 1.4 is only going to further guarantee the outcome. TL;DR Gallente suits w/ scrambler rifles and assault scrambler rifles have the advantage vs. Caldari suits w/ assault rifles. The Gallente weakness comes in, because it's grossly weak vs. everything else. A different passive skill bonus for the Gal assault suit would make the difference. The logi can fit just one kinetic calalyzer and surpass the speed of the assault, and still have more HP thanks to having one more slot, and the repair bonus. 1 more slot than assault (can be used for an extra plate), and one less slot needed for an armor repairer because of the bonus (meaning a slot can be used for a kinetic catalyzer), the result is both more HP more speed. Yes the Caldari suits are weak against laser weaponry, but that is countered by the fact that Gallente suits are even weaker against explosive weaponry. A Caldari assault with mass driver would wreck a Gallente assault with an assault scramber rifle. Also there is nothing about the Gallente assault that makes it better for the scrambler rifle than any other suit with the scrambler rifle. Your ignoring normal movement speeds, Kag. The assault is still faster, and that matters. It has a better shot at getting away from explosive weapons like grenades and mass drivers. The catalyzer CAN help for escapes, but does nothing for general firefight movement and evasion. The assault suit still has the advantage. You can't say the Gallente suit has no advantage over any other suit, right after you acknowledge that Caldari are weak against laser weapons. The Gallente suit has higher survivability vs scrambler rifles than the Caldari suit does. So a Caldari fighting a Gallente using a scrambler or assault scrambler is in an even greater disadvantage than he would be if he just used an AR. Same arguably goes for Gallente/Scrambler vs. Amarr/Scrambler. The Gallente is likely going to win, depending on the Amarr's build. Now a Gallente assault suit with a scrambler vs. a caldari with a mass driver... that's a circumstantial fight, because both suits are exploiting the others weakness. Favor would go to the Caldari since his weapon is easier to use. The only thing a Gal suit w/ a scrambler needs to fear are heavies, Assault SMGs, and things that go boom. (Snipers hurt too, but then again snipers hurt everyone.) Once that Gal suit is using an AR or a Mass Driver, his advantage through numbers and survivability vs. Caldari drops significantly. He won't damage the Cal suits fast enough to ensure killing them before they escape to regen shields, and a prolonged fire fight is a Gal suit's worst circumstance (and as an armor tank that shouldn't be the case).
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 810	Posted - 2013.08.31 10:05:00 - [3] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Jathniel wrote: Stuff Alright, the assault have the strafe advantage, but your weapon logic still makes no sense. I said the Gallente assault has no advantage in USING the scrambler rifle, the fact that it is resistant against scrambler rifles and other laser weapons is irrelevant since a Gallente assault won't be shooting itself. A scrambler rifle is not any deadlier in the hands of a Gallente assault, a Caldari assault, or a Minmatar assault. Any advantage the suit itself has to a particular weapon type (lasers) is already balanced by its weakness to another weapon type (explosives). Every suit has their own strengths and weaknesses against particular weapon types anyway, so being strong against lasers is already balanced out; frankly the weakness against explosives weighs much more on the suit. You dismiss the use of Caldari assaults with mass drivers being used against Gallente assaults with scrambler rifles as circumstantial, but so is your example of Gallente assault with scrambler rifle vs Caldari assault with AR; not every Caldari assault uses ARs, and not every Gallente assault uses a scrambler rifle. Misunderstanding. Okay, I'll take it from the top. You said this in your OP: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [Gallente vs Caldari] Now, lets consider the Gallente assault suit by comparing it to its Caldari counterpart. . . there are no advantages to using the Gallente instead of the Caldari assaults. . . On top of that the Caldari assault has the amazing 25% shield extender bonus to tank even more without sacrifice. What does the Gallente assault get? just some PG/CPU reduction thing for hybrid weapons. What I was trying to point out was that the Gallente suit, even the Assault, does have at least one advantage over the Caldari suit... The Gallente suit has slightly greater survivability vs. Caldari in a head-on utility weapon shoot-out because of those weapons' damage profiles. This advantage is greatly increased when the Gallente suit is using a Scrambler Rifle/Assault Scrambler Rifle; that Caldari extra 25% shield extension bonus means absolutely nothing then, because the Gallente suit is both resistant to incoming fire AND dishing heavy damage with stacking damage bonuses to the Caldari suit. The only thing the Gal suit needs to do is end the fight quickly. That considered, that's why I agreed that the Gal suit bonus is useless. The advantage for all Gallente suits is that they are the only suits that have a majority of their HP resistant to utility weapons (since current utility weapons do less damage to shields). You claim that's not an advantage since explosive weapons can kill armor very quickly and easily, but that's a non-sequitur. Just because the Gal suit has a weakness, does not mean its advantage suddenly disappears. Granted, I can see why the weakness makes the advantage appear meritless to you. I was by no means dismissing the fact that taking on a Caldari suit (or ANY suit) that's using a mass driver is challenging. I'm simply pointing out that it doesn't relate to the advantage. So saying that "not every Caldari assault uses ARs, and not every Gallente assault uses a scrambler rifle." is kind of a strawman statement. Think about it. You can go into a match and not find a mass driver user, but have you ever gone into a match and NOT found a player using a Caldari suit with an AR? If a player uses a Gallente suit with moderate mods and a scrambler rifle/assault scrambler rifle, he will find himself with a very significant and unique advantage, if he has the skill to use it. He will be a potent killer of the majority. All this said, if I could change the Gallente assault suit bonus, I would give it either a laser weapon equip cost reduction, or an armor buffing benefit of some sort. Either hardening or max HP. From my use of it and the Gal Logi, if the Gal Assault had the same passive armor regen, WITH the mobility it has...? It would be far more formidable than people realize. Borderline OP. The bonuses coming to armor modules will only increase this. The incoming bonuses for armor modules should be enough for Gal suits to be in a good place.