DUST Search - AV weapons should be in the Vehicles Skilltree

Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Dear God in heaven, this is the WORST proposal for balance ever.

In order to AV you must drive Vehicles... WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

Put the crackpipe down while I educate you about antitank infantry. they do not go and spend time learning to drive the machines they blow up. they learn to identify the enemy vehicles by silhouette and shape, and where to shoot them to blow holes in the side that cause overpressure to squirt the crew out through a hole the size of a quarter, like a fast-pour frostee machine.

Most antitank infantry know **** all about using turrets. They know where to hit the tank to make that turret pop off and fly fifty feet into the air though.

and more to the point, exactly how is being forcedg to learn turrets to use heavy weapons FUN? Is there fun factor for the AV player?

Here's what an AV player needs to know:

What is that?
Is it hostile?
do I have a weapon that can kill it?

If you correctly answer all three questions, you shoot it in the butt (weakspot) and watch it burn!

A wonderous example of why my suggestion would be great just stuck his head out folks!

As it is the community is so polarized that some people are outright expressing their fear of such an idea. The largest argument points regarding this rift are the number of SP needed to run both options and the price. With this option in place the SP required would be a bit more balanced.

Where does the fear come in you ask? It comes from that AV er who might want that extra damage so they skill into tanks... Only to get curious and try to fit a tank, and field it. Currently most of the arguments stem from absolute denial of the use of vehicles-- the mentality only holds as long as they can keep their illusions of vehicles as being disastrous on the field... But if they were to use the vehicles themselves and find otherwise... Their entire line of argument would be invalidated by their experience.

Thus they fear the possibility of being wrong... And claw tooth and nail to the concepts they have created.

My suggestion of the hybridized trees would help to shatter some irrational mindsets-- by making the possibility of seeing from both AV and vehicular sides possible.
It would likewise bring the vehicular side closer to the AV side so that discussions could become more balanced.

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Duran Lex Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 140	Posted - 2013.08.18 12:41:00 - [31] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Dear God in heaven, this is the WORST proposal for balance ever. In order to AV you must drive Vehicles... WHAT?!?!?!?!?! Put the crackpipe down while I educate you about antitank infantry. they do not go and spend time learning to drive the machines they blow up. they learn to identify the enemy vehicles by silhouette and shape, and where to shoot them to blow holes in the side that cause overpressure to squirt the crew out through a hole the size of a quarter, like a fast-pour frostee machine. Most antitank infantry know ** all about using turrets. They know where to hit the tank to make that turret pop off and fly fifty feet into the air though. and more to the point, exactly how is being forcedg to learn turrets to use heavy weapons FUN? Is there fun factor for the AV player? Here's what an AV player needs to know: What is that? Is it hostile? do I have a weapon that can kill it? If you correctly answer all three questions, you shoot it in the butt (weakspot) and watch it burn! A wonderous example of why my suggestion would be great just stuck his head out folks! As it is the community is so polarized that some people are outright expressing their fear of such an idea. The largest argument points regarding this rift are the number of SP needed to run both options and the price. With this option in place the SP required would be a bit more balanced. Where does the fear come in you ask? It comes from that AV er who might want that extra damage so they skill into tanks... Only to get curious and try to fit a tank, and field it. Currently most of the arguments stem from absolute denial of the use of vehicles-- the mentality only holds as long as they can keep their illusions of vehicles as being disastrous on the field... But if they were to use the vehicles themselves and find otherwise... Their entire line of argument would be invalidated by their experience. Thus they fear the possibility of being wrong... And claw tooth and nail to the concepts they have created. My suggestion of the hybridized trees would help to shatter some irrational mindsets-- by making the possibility of seeing from both AV and vehicular sides possible. It would likewise bring the vehicular side closer to the AV side so that discussions could become more balanced. You have said some strange things here. Had to re-read the OP to make sure 1 - The premise of your theory that the AV / Vehicle arguments are solely based on AV's not knowing the skill trees of a vehicle is flawed from the get go. Me shooting missiles, orbs and medicine balls at a target won't be affected by knowing the vehicle has the options of skilling into different areas of their vehicle. 2 - Your suggestions makes absolutely no sense. refer to the 2nd sentence of the above paragraph. 3 - Being forced to spec into skill trees people don't want just to be effective at a specialization they DO want is silly. 4 - This is a game of rock/paper/scissors. Your suggestion means the entirety of the skill tree needs to be worked in to fit balance this one idea. Every aspect of the skill tree would have to follow this "hybrid" style. In order to be effective at killing infantry, you'd have to spec into the races respective dropsuit. You can't be biased and choose AV/Vehicle as the only skills to receive these changes, for it unbalances the rest of the game. 5 - You are creating ideas out of false conclusions. No, the reason tankers complain about AV isn't because AV doesn't know how weak they are, its because noob tankers don't realize how weak they themselves are. The problem currently with tanks is they are water balloons ready to pop until you get at least 7mil SP invested into resistance skills. So that means 3 months of boosters, and capping out each week just to stop from being destroyed when a forge gun sneezes at you. Then its more time maxing out those skills to take more heat. But once you have the SP and properly fit your tank, you end up with 7k eHP (shield tankers have more, obviously) with approaching 50% resistance, which takes at the least of 6 Assault Forge gun hits to pop it, assuming he's not moving or using reppers. 6 - The huge gap between starting tankers, and large SP accrued tankers ( and isk price of tanks VS AV for many, but that's a different argument) is the reason for these ridiculous arguments that stem from ignorance on both sides of the coin. The same ignorance caused you to create this idea for an unbalance that you don't even fully understand yet, which is why some people are scoffing at you. Wait for the 1.5 Vehicle patch, where they are rebalancing the whole** of vehicles and AV. Also, i didn't mention DS and LAV's because we all know the DS is UP atm, and most hate the LLAV.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1230	Posted - 2013.08.18 12:45:00 - [32] - Quote mr Bandito wrote: It's almost like the post was so legitimate that the trolls couldn't think of anything to reply with? Logical concepts stem the tide of trolls?! Viva la Revolution! Viva la Revolution! Viva la Revolution! It's more likely the suggestion os so dumb it warranted no response.
mr Bandito Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2013.08.18 19:38:00 - [33] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: mr Bandito wrote: It's almost like the post was so legitimate that the trolls couldn't think of anything to reply with? Logical concepts stem the tide of trolls?! Viva la Revolution! Viva la Revolution! Viva la Revolution! It's more likely the suggestion os so dumb it warranted no response. Indeed. Brilliance is often the art of stupidity! Shatter resistant glass was discovered when a guy dropped a bottle in a laboratory. We might have to break a few bottles to make something interesting happen.
KnEe DeEp EnYa Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 0	Posted - 2013.08.18 20:00:00 - [34] - Quote anybody complaining about av grenades needs to step back. u guys in ur proto blaster tanks demolish us on a daily basis, running 25/0.whatever. so ur mad because it takes two guys with proto grenades to take out a 9000 health tank? dont forget we have to charge...and outsmart everyone else in the battlefield shooting at us, not to mention the three turrets on the damn thing...in order to take it out. so....u should have to go proto in assault and grenades before you can u can kill ANYONE with a tank. have fun driving around looking at the scenery.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 554	Posted - 2013.08.19 08:43:00 - [35] - Quote I have proto swarms and proficiency 5 in them. It takes about 3 seconds to lock onto a vehicle, and after firing a shot about 3 more before I can even hold down the button to try to lock again. A properly fitted tank takes about 5 swarms to kill.... IF they don't repp. My PROTO SWARM vs. a STANDARD TANK can take anywhere from 4-10 shots to kill. And any tanker whose been a tanker long enough to know how to fit one right and put the SP in to do so knows how to get away before I am able to take him out. The only times I am able to take out a really well fitted tank is if I get the drop on him after he get's isolated. Problems vehicle people who complain about AV have trouble understanding: 1. You are a support vehicle, you suppress and intimidate, you do not solo run without support. 2. Swarms CAN fly at you from across the field, but with that much travel time and delay between shots you have PLENTY of time to find a place to repp in safety unless you leave yourself wide open. 3. AV grenades DO lock onto you, but can only be thrown so far. Nowhere near as far as your blaster/rail//missile turret can fire. If you don't like them, KEEP YOUR DISTANCE. 4. Swarms don't auto follow you around corners, that's actually just an illusion. They track with a slight veer to the location where you were locked onto at while they head towards your current location. When they come within a certain distance of you however they become much more aggressive and track you much more tightly. Also, when fired, they travel outwards a set distance before tracking their target, which is what most people complain about when they mention "tracking around corners". 5. The damage our AV does is not the damage our weapons say they do. You have to factor in all of your damage resistance modules and passive skills in first, as well as our proficiency skills and damage mods when applicable. When they DO come out with ADV and PROTO tanks again god help us, because it's almost impossible to put away a well fit STD tank now without at least 2 PROTO AV guys on it, preferably 3.
Lorhak Gannarsein DUST University Ivy League 169	Posted - 2013.08.19 09:31:00 - [36] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: I have proto swarms and proficiency 5 in them. It takes about 3 seconds to lock onto a vehicle, and after firing a shot about 3 more before I can even hold down the button to try to lock again. A properly fitted tank takes about 5 swarms to kill.... IF they don't repp. My PROTO SWARM vs. a STANDARD TANK can take anywhere from 4-10 shots to kill. And any tanker whose been a tanker long enough to know how to fit one right and put the SP in to do so knows how to get away before I am able to take him out. The only times I am able to take out a really well fitted tank is if I get the drop on him after he get's isolated. Problems vehicle people who complain about AV have trouble understanding: 1. You are a support vehicle, you suppress and intimidate, you do not solo run without support. 2. Swarms CAN fly at you from across the field, but with that much travel time and delay between shots you have PLENTY of time to find a place to repp in safety unless you leave yourself wide open. 3. AV grenades DO lock onto you, but can only be thrown so far. Nowhere near as far as your blaster/rail//missile turret can fire. If you don't like them, KEEP YOUR DISTANCE. 4. Swarms don't auto follow you around corners, that's actually just an illusion. They track with a slight veer to the location where you were locked onto at while they head towards your current location. When they come within a certain distance of you however they become much more aggressive and track you much more tightly. Also, when fired, they travel outwards a set distance before tracking their target, which is what most people complain about when they mention "tracking around corners". 5. The damage our AV does is not the damage our weapons say they do. You have to factor in all of your damage resistance modules and passive skills in first, as well as our proficiency skills and damage mods when applicable. When they DO come out with ADV and PROTO tanks again god help us, because it's almost impossible to put away a well fit STD tank now without at least 2 PROTO AV guys on it, preferably 3. Assuming triple damage mods, your swarms hit a Madrugar for 3800 damage (minus, at proto,32.5%). That means, if the tank has shields still, four swarms. If not, three. This is assuming a four second time between swarms, and max skills for the tanker. And if you wait for him to burn his repper, he's dead. A well-fit proto blaster tank typically has ~6.7k base HP, 10% passive resists and 25% active resists, equalling 32.5% resists. He'll rep between 450 and 470HP per rep pulse, for 15s, with a 30s cool down. Consequently, you can out-DPS his repper by about 700 damage. Since you've hit him once for nearly 4k already, plus (assuming he popped the repper as soon as he heard the swarm) his repper won't start for 3s, you should be fine. My guess is either you're suffering from hit detection woes, in which case don't ***** about the tanks, or you're bad at AV. EDIT: Also I think OP's idea is bad, for reasons stated by other posters.
XxGhazbaranxX Bannana Boat Corp 286	Posted - 2013.08.19 09:53:00 - [37] - Quote the only true AV weapons are av grenades and swarm launchers. forge guns where designed as "anti material" weapon and the plasma cannon was designed for urban combat. the latter two have never been stated to be anti vehicles only weapons.


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