DUST Search - What being in a tank feels like when proto AV shows up

Xender17 wrote:

Verdelle DeMosays wrote:

Well, given all input from the AV guys, and the request from some for the actual armor pilots to weigh in, this seems like a good time to give my thoughts. Here's some background.

This is my vehicle alt, my main, Verdia, is a 5.5 mil sp Logistics, and I have 1.5 mil SP, all in armor. My fitting skills are tailored to Gallente Madrugar tanks, and I can fit STD turrets, and ADV equivalent damage reducers, reps and plates. So while I don't have the skills of Void (skills both ways, he's stomped me before, and has my respect), I do have enough to field a fast, relatively durable anti-personnel blaster tank.

I'm also learning my maps well, and know the basics of tank driving. Rule 1: always have an escape route, and Rule 2: always have infantry near you. So on any match where I have smart bunnies around me, things go well, I lock down whole sections of the map, and typically go about 7-10/0, so pretty much on par for someone in a standard tank.

However, there are some problems I run into with the AV situation currently. Here are my thoughts on the current weapons:

Forge Guns:
Wonderful little anti-vehicle weapons, which double as a stunningly effective mid-range one-shotter on infantry. These things are pretty well balanced at the moment. Yes, the damage is pretty stupid (2k+ for PROs), but they take a while to charge, and are line-of-sight only, so if you stay exposed to a Heavy, you deserve the ass that will get handed to you. They also require a sizable investment in SP in order to get into the good ones, and are a high enough cost that people don't risk them stupidly.

AV Grenades:
Great for killing murdertaxis, and can do a number on tanks if someone lets them get close enough. Hive+AV grenade=win....but a good tanker should splatter any infantry that gets that close, or run away, so really, if you die to these in a tank, you made some bad decisions. See Rule #1, and talk to me when it sinks in.

Swarm Launchers:
Frak me. These things are ridiculous, and are a tanker's worst enemy. The damage at PRO level exceeds that of PRO forge guns, requires far less SP, far less fitting costs, and is free of the usual limitations of other AV weapons. The biggest advantage is that you just need a quick peek at the target to get a lock, and don't have to be anywhere close, or anywhere near line of sight for these things to hit. While I'm sure that the PRO Swarms were intended to counter PRO tanks, we don't have them, and they are stupidly overpowered. I know this from my AV alt, who can routinely kill Militia tanks with a CBR7 before the RDV even drops them to the ground, and STD tanks in one magazine of 4 shots, if they hold stillish for 8 seconds.

The Ishukone Assault FG only requires 3 - 4 shots to kill the average tank. It's also the most favored FG. Currently FG's are being used as AI insta-kill weapons as well. It takes one guy to shut down the entire map from vehicles. Other than maybe fast LAV's.

AV grenades. Available to everyone and takes nothing away from them for becoming an AV role. Takes 3 to kill the average mady and maybe 4 for a gunnlogi.

Swarm Launchers:
Completely useless against DS's after the first hit unless the DS pilot decides to stay. Unlike 90% of all others. Or the DS is just beginning take off.
(Math time :D)
6 x 330 = 1980
Damage Bonuses:
Armor- 1980 + 20% = 2376
Shield- 1980 - 20% = 1584
Madrugar average HP- 6000
Gunnlogi average HP- 5000
2376/6000 = 39% percent per hit
1584/5000 = 31% percent per hit
That's their effectiveness against the average good tanker. Please keep in mind SL skill bonuses and damage mods are not included. Also neither are HAV HPregen/ps and resistance mods. When those are added the madrugar dpph was around 32-31% and the gunnlogi was around 28-30%.


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Verdelle DeMosays Shattered Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.16 23:05:00 - [1] - Quote Well, given all input from the AV guys, and the request from some for the actual armor pilots to weigh in, this seems like a good time to give my thoughts. Here's some background. This is my vehicle alt, my main, Verdia, is a 5.5 mil sp Logistics, and I have 1.5 mil SP, all in armor. My fitting skills are tailored to Gallente Madrugar tanks, and I can fit STD turrets, and ADV equivalent damage reducers, reps and plates. So while I don't have the skills of Void (skills both ways, he's stomped me before, and has my respect), I do have enough to field a fast, relatively durable anti-personnel blaster tank. I'm also learning my maps well, and know the basics of tank driving. Rule 1: always have an escape route, and Rule 2: always have infantry near you. So on any match where I have smart bunnies around me, things go well, I lock down whole sections of the map, and typically go about 7-10/0, so pretty much on par for someone in a standard tank. However, there are some problems I run into with the AV situation currently. Here are my thoughts on the current weapons: Forge Guns: Wonderful little anti-vehicle weapons, which double as a stunningly effective mid-range one-shotter on infantry. These things are pretty well balanced at the moment. Yes, the damage is pretty stupid (2k+ for PROs), but they take a while to charge, and are line-of-sight only, so if you stay exposed to a Heavy, you deserve the ass that will get handed to you. They also require a sizable investment in SP in order to get into the good ones, and are a high enough cost that people don't risk them stupidly. AV Grenades: Great for killing murdertaxis, and can do a number on tanks if someone lets them get close enough. Hive+AV grenade=win....but a good tanker should splatter any infantry that gets that close, or run away, so really, if you die to these in a tank, you made some bad decisions. See Rule #1, and talk to me when it sinks in. Swarm Launchers: Frak me. These things are ridiculous, and are a tanker's worst enemy. The damage at PRO level exceeds that of PRO forge guns, requires far less SP, far less fitting costs, and is free of the usual limitations of other AV weapons. The biggest advantage is that you just need a quick peek at the target to get a lock, and don't have to be anywhere close, or anywhere near line of sight for these things to hit. While I'm sure that the PRO Swarms were intended to counter PRO tanks, we don't have them, and they are stupidly overpowered. I know this from my AV alt, who can routinely kill Militia tanks with a CBR7 before the RDV even drops them to the ground, and STD tanks in one magazine of 4 shots, if they hold stillish for 8 seconds. With that said, I would like to propose a few fixes to help balance this out a bit better. Forges: OK as they are, though the tanker in me says to reduce the damage slightly....hehe AV Grenades: After the capacity reduction, they do what they should: kill murdertaxis. I use them on my Logistics, and have used them quite successfully that way. Swarm Launchers: These things are in need of attention, since they're so easy to use, so few SP required to get a good one, and so hard to do anything about if someone uses one on you. My suggestion is to remove the bonus rockets and ammo capacity from the ADV and PRO units, limit them to a mag size of 4, and replace the rockets with a 8% ADV and 15% PRO damage bonus. This brings it closer in line with the other weapon system damage ramp-ups, and will still be viable, but will force a reload on the Swarm operator to take out a well-fitted tank. The militia coffins and LAV's will still die just as fast, but the guy who puts a whole character into HAV's won't die in the first burst, and will actually bring a tank to the field for you to kill. Those are just some thoughts from an actual tanker, who loves his role, and deliberately gimped his infantry capacity by choosing to spec and build a HAV pilot. And to all the people who would argue that, I suggest that you roll a tanker, and see what I mean. If you spend those SP early on into handheld weaponry, and dropsuits, you will only field the sorts of tanks that the AV guys love to eat up in a flash of fire, and a scroll of warpoints. But when you get that first fitting that will laugh off a militia swarm launcher, and gun down suit after suit, you'll happily trade the lack of infantry capacity for that moment.
Verdelle DeMosays Shattered Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.16 23:58:00 - [2] - Quote The hardest thing in pubs is finding infantry that understands that, and actively protects you. If they do that, Ambush matches are amazingly fast SP and ISK if people just protect the damn tank! I would like to take a dropship and write that in the sky so that the newberries out there can see it and take notice. The best part about escorting a tank is all the kills you get, since the blasters soften them up, and they run off with 1hp left, just begging to have the infantry pop them with 1 shot. Free Warpoints for you, and I get to not lose my tank, it's a Win-Win.
Verdelle DeMosays Shattered Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.17 00:23:00 - [3] - Quote The only thing that gets under my skin is the fact that it only takes one AVer with moderate gear to trash out my 500k ISK tank. If a team had to coordinate to take out a tank it really wouldn't bother me as much, since it was their skill VS my fitting, and I would salute their win, just as I did today when a guy with a militia forge caught me in a bad spot I got into and took advantage of it. His skill beat my skill points, and more power to him. The issue I have is when it takes one idiot on the other team to neutralize me completely, whether it's through trashing my tank or just keeping me away. I'd love to see an AV nerf, just so I can play my tank a bit more aggressively, instead of worrying about losing a tank in 6 seconds. Please read my previous post, and give me your thoughts about my suggestions.
Verdelle DeMosays Shattered Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.17 00:28:00 - [4] - Quote Xender17 wrote: Verdelle DeMosays wrote: Well, given all input from the AV guys, and the request from some for the actual armor pilots to weigh in, this seems like a good time to give my thoughts. Here's some background. This is my vehicle alt, my main, Verdia, is a 5.5 mil sp Logistics, and I have 1.5 mil SP, all in armor. My fitting skills are tailored to Gallente Madrugar tanks, and I can fit STD turrets, and ADV equivalent damage reducers, reps and plates. So while I don't have the skills of Void (skills both ways, he's stomped me before, and has my respect), I do have enough to field a fast, relatively durable anti-personnel blaster tank. I'm also learning my maps well, and know the basics of tank driving. Rule 1: always have an escape route, and Rule 2: always have infantry near you. So on any match where I have smart bunnies around me, things go well, I lock down whole sections of the map, and typically go about 7-10/0, so pretty much on par for someone in a standard tank. However, there are some problems I run into with the AV situation currently. Here are my thoughts on the current weapons: Forge Guns: Wonderful little anti-vehicle weapons, which double as a stunningly effective mid-range one-shotter on infantry. These things are pretty well balanced at the moment. Yes, the damage is pretty stupid (2k+ for PROs), but they take a while to charge, and are line-of-sight only, so if you stay exposed to a Heavy, you deserve the ass that will get handed to you. They also require a sizable investment in SP in order to get into the good ones, and are a high enough cost that people don't risk them stupidly. AV Grenades: Great for killing murdertaxis, and can do a number on tanks if someone lets them get close enough. Hive+AV grenade=win....but a good tanker should splatter any infantry that gets that close, or run away, so really, if you die to these in a tank, you made some bad decisions. See Rule #1, and talk to me when it sinks in. Swarm Launchers: Frak me. These things are ridiculous, and are a tanker's worst enemy. The damage at PRO level exceeds that of PRO forge guns, requires far less SP, far less fitting costs, and is free of the usual limitations of other AV weapons. The biggest advantage is that you just need a quick peek at the target to get a lock, and don't have to be anywhere close, or anywhere near line of sight for these things to hit. While I'm sure that the PRO Swarms were intended to counter PRO tanks, we don't have them, and they are stupidly overpowered. I know this from my AV alt, who can routinely kill Militia tanks with a CBR7 before the RDV even drops them to the ground, and STD tanks in one magazine of 4 shots, if they hold stillish for 8 seconds. The Ishukone Assault FG only requires 3 - 4 shots to kill the average tank. It's also the most favored FG. Currently FG's are being used as AI insta-kill weapons as well. It takes one guy to shut down the entire map from vehicles. Other than maybe fast LAV's. AV grenades. Available to everyone and takes nothing away from them for becoming an AV role. Takes 3 to kill the average mady and maybe 4 for a gunnlogi. Swarm Launchers: Completely useless against DS's after the first hit unless the DS pilot decides to stay. Unlike 90% of all others. Or the DS is just beginning take off. (Math time :D) 6 x 330 = 1980 Damage Bonuses: Armor- 1980 + 20% = 2376 Shield- 1980 - 20% = 1584 Madrugar average HP- 6000 Gunnlogi average HP- 5000 2376/6000 = 39% percent per hit 1584/5000 = 31% percent per hit That's their effectiveness against the average good tanker. Please keep in mind SL skill bonuses and damage mods are not included. Also neither are HAV HPregen/ps and resistance mods. When those are added the madrugar dpph was around 32-31% and the gunnlogi was around 28-30%. Thanks for the math, most people don't realize the sheer damage of swarms. I think this shows some of my point in re Madrugars.
Verdelle DeMosays Shattered Ascension 0	Posted - 2013.08.17 11:47:00 - [5] - Quote sammus420 wrote: Verdelle DeMosays wrote: The only thing that gets under my skin is the fact that it only takes one AVer with moderate gear to trash out my 500k ISK tank. A 500k isk tank is trash, especially in a game with such poor match making. You're going up against adv and proto AV in a militia level tank. Play against people at your own fitting level and it will be a different story; a story where it takes people coordinating together to beat you. Or, alternatively, work with a squad that keeps people around your tank who work to pick off people bringing AV onto the field. Sadly, Sammus, the only hulls available atm are Gunnlogi, Madrugar, and their Enforcer variants. The enforcers have the same main tank numbers, but give a bonus to range. So we essentially have NO equivalent to the Prototype tier, and really nothing equivalent to Advanced, and it's hurting us as tankers. Which gives us PRO forge and swarm gunners running around offing stuff that's way under their meta. This is why I laugh so hard at people who complain about tanks in a match.