DUST Search - Perfecting the Roles - Grinding

Komodo Jones wrote:

Hinteresting. I think the way to do this, or something that could help at least, is to take the "lobby" out of lobby shooter, idk about open world or what they could do with it but that's what makes it generic, it's claimed to be a persistent shooter but the only reason it's close to that description is that the more you play the better you get. There's no persistent immersion; something that I thought was interesting in MAG was that the more battles you're faction won the more rewards you were given based on that. If you dominated one battle type you would get more out of it, so if you were losing ground in another area you might be more inclined to play that mode.

If they intend to pursue this CoD style lobby shooter structure then that's just plain boring and sure it will keep people busy but it won't keep their minds active. Shooter-looters are certainly not fun to me, I doze off sometimes trying to play borderlands, people should absolutely be able to play for something more than just more stuff and they should have the tools to basically affect the dust universe how they will and not by a set list of methods as defined by CCP. The game needs the framework to function and a sandbox to be creative but I feel like there also needs to be a guideline or a catalyst, just enough to get people off the ground and keep them engaged until they're essentially "self sufficient" and are producing their own reasons to play and making it THEIR game.

The game's universe is massive enough and already well established, the game itself is still young and can go in any direction, so what can be done to keep people playing even without the aspect of grinding for, essentially, collectables. I'm not gonna be kept playing for very long if the only point is to basically accumulate digital revenue, the purpose of an RPG is a story and I think the most successful RPGs are the ones that allow you to write the most of the story.

I've seen the intergalactic summit section, and as soon as I saw it I thought, what's the point? It's a section for people to write fiction at this point because there's nothing in the game that even allows the player to give meaning to it, money and SP and for a select few, a district, which is at this point a digital icon on the starmap. There's no epic battles like I've heard of in EVE, none of these 16v16 skirmishes are going to make headlines.

Think I'm starting to rant, ok so what this game needs is a way for people to engage themselves, allow them to make these unique experiences to get out of the game instead of just more "loot", get them thinking critically instead of having their biggest decision be "should I come back with a shotgun or assault rifle" or "what gun should I spec into". My post seems like it's just repeating and elaborating the point but how COULD this be done? Make the game open world somehow? Have people physically build their own bases? full customization with suits and guns right down to things like base PG and number of slots? the ability to do something other than just go into battle and shoot people in the face, like maybe have weapons manufacturers or suppliers? I think even allowing something as simple as spectators would be great, the ability cut and edit a battle from different camera angles would be fantastic.

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Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2479	Posted - 2013.08.13 05:44:00 - [1] - Quote Just letting everyone know, I've been seriously irritable what with the onset of Influenza working it's magic on my respiratory system so if I come off as pretentious or arrogant, my apologies. Let's begin with an explanation of what grinding is in a video game. Grinding is essentially any repetitive task using the same strategy over and over again to advance in the game. So let's talk about why it's importa- no, it's not important. At all. It's a silly mechanic that was put in place by every MMO designer -ever- for the sake of two things. A.) To increase the time and disparity between lower level and higher level rewards. B.) As a brutal means of influencing players to spend money for reduced grinding. That's the basis of it in and of it's entirety and you can beat around the bush all you want but inevitably that's what it comes down to, one or both of those aspects. Every game has some form of grinding, some are absolutely terrible with it's execution (RuneScape) and some are actually pretty creative with it (FF-XII). So what separates a "good" grind versus a "bad" grind? Execution and implementation. If it's actually enjoyable it's hard to consider it grinding, such is the case with Final Fantasy XII (as mentioned before) in which you're given a 'chain' for killing the same mob repeatedly (maximum of 999). This 'chain' will give you better rewards as you progress and actually leaves you with a sense of "I wonder what I'll get next" for those that are patient. On the other hand... We have Dust... Which is the epitome of grinding. Apart from the miniscule amounts of SP we obtain through passive accumulation, the only way to gain SP/ISK is through matchmaker grinding. This effectively turns the most innovative and inspired shooter to hit the Playstation 3 into the most advanced lobby shooter with -potential- to become the greatest console FPS of all time. What we have is a system that rewards players for in-game combat in which the weak get powerful and the powerful get more powerful -in the same area-. There is no point to it. It's repetitive, dull and ultimately disruptive to the game's overall health due to damaging the general balance between new and old players. Without more innovative content to provide some sort of meaningful engagement, the game swirls in place without moving. Some may say that PvE content (drones) will aid to this, but I severely doubt that it will as it will just add a "co-op" shooter aspect to the game that... you guessed it... is just grinding, without the human element behind the mind of the opposition. There needs to be some sort of -reason- for it all, as the game suggests in many of it's advertisements and media outlets. The very closest means of obtaining that reason are Factional Warfare and Planetary Conquest, both of which are inherently flawed for various reasons. Planetary Conquest is reserved for the top tier players who already have enough ISK to be able to compete in Planetary Conquest as it is very difficult to get a foot hold with a Starter Pack of clones. This goes right back to grinding as, wouldn't you know it, to get to PC Capability you need to have 16 players who have spent enough time grinding to be able to field the necessary gear to be competitive. Factional Warfare is flawed in that it allows anyone to participate - removing the disparity between the two players entirely - and it gives you no means of meaningful interaction with Eve Online other than implication. A corporation can fight for a faction and work hard as the dickens to turn a planet over entirely in their faction's favor but given as there's no way to control -WHAT- planet or district you're going to, it's far too easy to have it immediately flipped again. You're not only forced to fight in an area that the game decides, you're also at the mercy of available slots if you're in a squad or multiple squads. Of course, this will be changed whenever CCP Implements the overhauled FW matchmaker which will allow entire 16 man teams to deploy together but the fact still remains - there's no way to control where you're going. Anything you accomplished that night can be immediately undone because of this. Beyond that, there's no way to see the impact you're even making given that there isn't enough information being provided (what faction owns the system the planet is in, how well they're doing, what impact the districts your faction possesses is making etc etc). With that in mind, you can kiss meaningful interaction goodbye. So that leaves us with Instant Matchmaking - Hi-sec, in other words, and I don't need to give a long drawn-out explanation of all the issues surrounding this part of the game and why it's absolutely lacking. The content that this game needs should be meaningful and have long lasting effects. Drone warfare isn't going to solve a damn thing and Planetary Conquest is just... Broken.. It has the same exact issue as Eve Online in that large alliances/power blocs control everything and if you're going to make it there you have to be able to field similar gear, similar numbers and meta-game the dogshit out of the system (that means using ALL the cheap tricks, formerly Flaylocks/Contact Grenades) to be remotely competitive. Otherwise you're going to be stuck in a perpetual state of timers. My best suggestion is to make EVERYTHING matter. Faction Warfare shouldn't just be a match maker with some subtle if not vague impact on Eve Online that no-one really notices. It should actually mean something to the players who are participating, giving benefits for the faction who controls the most territory - as it does in Eve Online. If Faction Warfare is more beneficial than your Instant Matchmaking, there might be a migration of veteran players toward it as it's more rewarding. This doesn't mean "nyeeeh higher isk rewards" - I think there's plenty of room to work something more unique in there. We already have enough ISK generation.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2479	Posted - 2013.08.13 05:44:00 - [2] - Quote Factional Warfare needs to provide Dust players the information they need to see what kind of impact their making - the percentage differential on the solar system's capture status. The solar systems in which Eve players have conquered for their particular faction, etc. We need to think outside of the box - rather than just tacking on more "grind" content to the game we need to implement more engaging features. Things that players WANT to do and while I'm sure "shooting someone in the face" is a great answer, there are a vast amount of games that include "shooting someone in the face" in their list of features. The answer to this needs to be innovative - something unique to Dust 514 that no other game has. We have an amazing starting point and it's been sitting there for over a decade: Eve Online. What ways can we actually make Dust 514 more interactive with Eve Online and what ways can we do it that make the interaction meaningful and engaging without the repetitious bull that every other game already provides (better in some cases)? The answer is simple: Player Driven Content. The development team simply cannot keep up with the fluctuating masses. It's impossible, why? Because everyone has a different opinion - but that difference in opinion is an AMAZING conflict driver and where you have conflict you will inevitably have some sort of social interaction. This is something that CCP cannot influence and should make no effort in attempting because it would be unnatural. What they SHOULD do, on the other hand, is provide the tools necessary to make those social interactions readily available and plentiful. This is exactly what Eve Online hallmarked on and is what it is known for. There's been a few MMO attempts who've tried to dive into Eve Online's niche role but inevitably failed because they didn't grasp the core concept of player driven interactions. Here's a video (the highlight of my argument) I'd like everyone to watch to help understand what's going on with Dust 514 right now and how we can make it better for the future. Turning it from Operant Conditioning (playing for a reward we know we will get, I.E SP/ISK) to Player Immersion and Engagement (playing for the novelty and experiences we craft for ourselves): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbtAn3dic-g#at=394
Dog Merc Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2013.08.13 05:56:00 - [3] - Quote This thread went from grinding, and how bad it is, to EVE interaction in Snap just like that. That's all I really can say. While grinding is boring, but it never bothered me. Passive isnt quite so minuscule as you say my friend, Grinding only gets on your nerves if your impatient, or have little tolerance for betas. I "Passive Grind" almost exclusively, cause I'm waiting for 1.4, and I hope it's good... MMing, Aiming, possibly some new toys... Only if it delivered on the promise, will I play DUST once more.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2479	Posted - 2013.08.13 06:07:00 - [4] - Quote Dog Merc wrote: This thread went from grinding, and how bad it is, to EVE interaction in Snap just like that. That's all I really can say. While grinding is boring, but it never bothered me. Passive isnt quite so minuscule as you say my friend, Grinding only gets on your nerves if your impatient, or have little tolerance for betas. I "Passive Grind" almost exclusively, cause I'm waiting for 1.4, and I hope it's good... MMing, Aiming, possibly some new toys... Only if it delivered on the promise, will I play DUST once more. So you would you prefer Generic Lobby Shooter 514 without the Eve interaction? Bear in mind this game -was- created under the pretense that it would be connected to Eve... It has nothing different from any other game without that aspect... If you have a better option that doesn't directly rip off of some other game (Planetside 2) I'd love to hear it..
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 49	Posted - 2013.08.13 07:52:00 - [5] - Quote Hinteresting. I think the way to do this, or something that could help at least, is to take the "lobby" out of lobby shooter, idk about open world or what they could do with it but that's what makes it generic, it's claimed to be a persistent shooter but the only reason it's close to that description is that the more you play the better you get. There's no persistent immersion; something that I thought was interesting in MAG was that the more battles you're faction won the more rewards you were given based on that. If you dominated one battle type you would get more out of it, so if you were losing ground in another area you might be more inclined to play that mode. If they intend to pursue this CoD style lobby shooter structure then that's just plain boring and sure it will keep people busy but it won't keep their minds active. Shooter-looters are certainly not fun to me, I doze off sometimes trying to play borderlands, people should absolutely be able to play for something more than just more stuff and they should have the tools to basically affect the dust universe how they will and not by a set list of methods as defined by CCP. The game needs the framework to function and a sandbox to be creative but I feel like there also needs to be a guideline or a catalyst, just enough to get people off the ground and keep them engaged until they're essentially "self sufficient" and are producing their own reasons to play and making it THEIR game. The game's universe is massive enough and already well established, the game itself is still young and can go in any direction, so what can be done to keep people playing even without the aspect of grinding for, essentially, collectables. I'm not gonna be kept playing for very long if the only point is to basically accumulate digital revenue, the purpose of an RPG is a story and I think the most successful RPGs are the ones that allow you to write the most of the story. I've seen the intergalactic summit section, and as soon as I saw it I thought, what's the point? It's a section for people to write fiction at this point because there's nothing in the game that even allows the player to give meaning to it, money and SP and for a select few, a district, which is at this point a digital icon on the starmap. There's no epic battles like I've heard of in EVE, none of these 16v16 skirmishes are going to make headlines. Think I'm starting to rant, ok so what this game needs is a way for people to engage themselves, allow them to make these unique experiences to get out of the game instead of just more "loot", get them thinking critically instead of having their biggest decision be "should I come back with a shotgun or assault rifle" or "what gun should I spec into". My post seems like it's just repeating and elaborating the point but how COULD this be done? Make the game open world somehow? Have people physically build their own bases? full customization with suits and guns right down to things like base PG and number of slots? the ability to do something other than just go into battle and shoot people in the face, like maybe have weapons manufacturers or suppliers? I think even allowing something as simple as spectators would be great, the ability cut and edit a battle from different camera angles would be fantastic.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2497	Posted - 2013.08.13 18:38:00 - [6] - Quote Komodo Jones wrote: Hinteresting. I think the way to do this, or something that could help at least, is to take the "lobby" out of lobby shooter, idk about open world or what they could do with it but that's what makes it generic, it's claimed to be a persistent shooter but the only reason it's close to that description is that the more you play the better you get. There's no persistent immersion; something that I thought was interesting in MAG was that the more battles you're faction won the more rewards you were given based on that. If you dominated one battle type you would get more out of it, so if you were losing ground in another area you might be more inclined to play that mode. If they intend to pursue this CoD style lobby shooter structure then that's just plain boring and sure it will keep people busy but it won't keep their minds active. Shooter-looters are certainly not fun to me, I doze off sometimes trying to play borderlands, people should absolutely be able to play for something more than just more stuff and they should have the tools to basically affect the dust universe how they will and not by a set list of methods as defined by CCP. The game needs the framework to function and a sandbox to be creative but I feel like there also needs to be a guideline or a catalyst, just enough to get people off the ground and keep them engaged until they're essentially "self sufficient" and are producing their own reasons to play and making it THEIR game. The game's universe is massive enough and already well established, the game itself is still young and can go in any direction, so what can be done to keep people playing even without the aspect of grinding for, essentially, collectables. I'm not gonna be kept playing for very long if the only point is to basically accumulate digital revenue, the purpose of an RPG is a story and I think the most successful RPGs are the ones that allow you to write the most of the story. I've seen the intergalactic summit section, and as soon as I saw it I thought, what's the point? It's a section for people to write fiction at this point because there's nothing in the game that even allows the player to give meaning to it, money and SP and for a select few, a district, which is at this point a digital icon on the starmap. There's no epic battles like I've heard of in EVE, none of these 16v16 skirmishes are going to make headlines. Think I'm starting to rant, ok so what this game needs is a way for people to engage themselves, allow them to make these unique experiences to get out of the game instead of just more "loot", get them thinking critically instead of having their biggest decision be "should I come back with a shotgun or assault rifle" or "what gun should I spec into". My post seems like it's just repeating and elaborating the point but how COULD this be done? Make the game open world somehow? Have people physically build their own bases? full customization with suits and guns right down to things like base PG and number of slots? the ability to do something other than just go into battle and shoot people in the face, like maybe have weapons manufacturers or suppliers? I think even allowing something as simple as spectators would be great, the ability cut and edit a battle from different camera angles would be fantastic. I'm against the whole spectator thing because it falls into Gamer Psychology 101 (not a real thing, just using it as an example) in which most if not all 'gamers' want to PLAY games rather than watch them. This is why I think the "innovative" features of the PS4/Xbox One are inevitably going to be under-utilized because... Let's face it... No-one cares to watch you die three hundred thousand times when they could just log into the game themselves and go kick some ass to upstage you. You can avoid making the game open world by making -parts- of the game open world and this has been suggested and discussed a hundred, thousand, million times but it's just not going to happen anytime soon because CCP is intent on getting "core gameplay" out of the way first. Something I despise being used as reasoning because all of the core gameplay is akin to Alpha testing. It's just the baseline of the baseline. "Core Gameplay" should be focusing on the things that no-one else has done before so that the game is at the very least interesting, social hubs need to be a high priority focus rather than just guns guns guns and more guns. We have plenty of guns that work properly and I think we can all go a little while longer having some of them in limbo (breach assault rifle) if we have something that's even remotely engaging or appealing. Things like: Legitimate, fluctuating economy (this doesn't have to be connected to Eve yet) Corporation hubs (level design says they can't touch this until coding gets some kind of groundwork for it, so now you know why that's no-where near completion) Meaningful rewards that's not just ISK (faction warfare changes are going to be increasing ISK reward based on standing, lol) Manufacturing of our own Small Arms The way things are right now, you're playing for scheduled rewards - hence the video I posted up. It's like going to work. Someone in another thread said, "So if you had to work 60-70 hours for 500,000 dollars you wouldn't do it?" But that's the entire point I'm making here. When you've been led into a system that your best comparison is going to work for a paycheck, then you've fallen into a very badly designed game. Dust DESPERATELY needs something to set it apart and make it worth while that the PLAYERS can engage in that isn't -just- killing people repeatedly for small handouts every time. This is why fans of the Call of Duty and Halo franchise will never leave those franchises is because they've been conditioned to playing for those rewards. You can't market on someone else's niche and hope that you'll make revenue off of it.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 51	Posted - 2013.08.14 00:04:00 - [7] - Quote Probably the main reason why so many people think the game isn't finished yet, the alpha testing was basically on PC or some engine that ps3 couldn't handle so all of the core mechanics and data they gathered was useless and when they restarted for the closed beta...well I've heard it described as the dark ages lol. And yeah if they're going to try to make the game like call of duty or battlefield then they're going to fail because those games already do their job and they do that job well. The main reason why people play this game is because it's unique, or at least gives off the idea of being unique. I don't think anyone wants to be tricked into liking a game, I mean idk much about MMOs but I'm in the FF14 beta and I spent like less than 20% of my time fighting, I know that at least sometimes you wanna spend your time doing something else, they have an entire universe of unlimited resources and exploration and technology and all we can do is shoot people in the face? I hope that's not the endgame lol. Something like opening up the warbarge might help, basically just turn it into something like playstation@home in space, let people watch movies and just chill in the warbarge, have a workshop or garage or lab to fiddle with **** in the game, hell have minigames, I've always said that warroom command center needed a ping pong table
Dog Merc Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2013.08.14 00:16:00 - [8] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Dog Merc wrote: This thread went from grinding, and how bad it is, to EVE interaction in Snap just like that. That's all I really can say. While grinding is boring, but it never bothered me. Passive isnt quite so minuscule as you say my friend, Grinding only gets on your nerves if your impatient, or have little tolerance for betas. I "Passive Grind" almost exclusively, cause I'm waiting for 1.4, and I hope it's good... MMing, Aiming, possibly some new toys... Only if it delivered on the promise, will I play DUST once more. So you would you prefer Generic Lobby Shooter 514 without the Eve interaction? Bear in mind this game -was- created under the pretense that it would be connected to Eve... It has nothing different from any other game without that aspect... If you have a better option that doesn't directly rip off of some other game (Planetside 2) I'd love to hear it.. Edit: The reason it went to the Eve Interaction is because that's what makes the game engaging and immersive, rather than just compulsive. As explained in the video, it's more fun to win $100 gambling than to hit a button for eight hours and get a $100 paycheck. Yes, EVE interaction is important. But, Grinding and EVE Interaction aren't really Linked. You can make grinding Funner/more meaningful through EVE interaction, yes, but those two aren't chained together. I think More Merc Contracts are needed, and they need to be able to be placed by Corps. Say Corp A wants to Invade Corp B, but they don't wanna risk losing any Vehicles so they can defend themselves better when they get attacked. So Corp A Puts up a Contract for 15 Mil ISK to Invade Corp B's district. The Contract is Put into the Queue for being put up on the Merc Contract List at the Time the Battle is happening. Corp B Gets an Alert saying they are going to be attacked, do they want to put this battle up to contract, and the Same thing happens here that happens like when the Attackers put up the Attack. It gives grinding something Worthwhile to it, and it affects the climate of the Game.
Cyzad4 Blackfish Corp. 11	Posted - 2013.08.14 01:34:00 - [9] - Quote This is a really great thread... too bad it's likely to get the tl;dr from most. Don't really have much to add other than "FOR **** SAKES YES!!" Some other interaction possibilities are a must, as much fun as shooting people in the face over and over and over and over and over and over on one of what? 4 maps and 2 game modes (sry domination is just skirmish) it gets a little old (read as VERY OLD). I've been playing since well before open beta,w the hopes of the game actually living up to any of the groundbreaking "plans"... still waiting. as for grinding, it makes me want to pull my hair out which is why I'm only playing maybe 4-5 games a wk, if that. I spend more time on the boards now than I do actually playing the game. Because to be honest nothing's really changed in a while other than a whole list of new AUR weapons. Serious suit and weapon customization would be fun along w FULL stats for games and fittings (scan precision/profile). Mini games (need a name change, something suitably sci-fi/war like lol) could even be tied in to sp gain. And I'm totally down for ping-pong
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2511	Posted - 2013.08.14 04:49:00 - [10] - Quote Dog Merc wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Dog Merc wrote: This thread went from grinding, and how bad it is, to EVE interaction in Snap just like that. That's all I really can say. While grinding is boring, but it never bothered me. Passive isnt quite so minuscule as you say my friend, Grinding only gets on your nerves if your impatient, or have little tolerance for betas. I "Passive Grind" almost exclusively, cause I'm waiting for 1.4, and I hope it's good... MMing, Aiming, possibly some new toys... Only if it delivered on the promise, will I play DUST once more. So you would you prefer Generic Lobby Shooter 514 without the Eve interaction? Bear in mind this game -was- created under the pretense that it would be connected to Eve... It has nothing different from any other game without that aspect... If you have a better option that doesn't directly rip off of some other game (Planetside 2) I'd love to hear it.. Edit: The reason it went to the Eve Interaction is because that's what makes the game engaging and immersive, rather than just compulsive. As explained in the video, it's more fun to win $100 gambling than to hit a button for eight hours and get a $100 paycheck. Yes, EVE interaction is important. But, Grinding and EVE Interaction aren't really Linked. You can make grinding Funner/more meaningful through EVE interaction, yes, but those two aren't chained together. I think More Merc Contracts are needed, and they need to be able to be placed by Corps. Say Corp A wants to Invade Corp B, but they don't wanna risk losing any Vehicles so they can defend themselves better when they get attacked. So Corp A Puts up a Contract for 15 Mil ISK to Invade Corp B's district. The Contract is Put into the Queue for being put up on the Merc Contract List at the Time the Battle is happening. Corp B Gets an Alert saying they are going to be attacked, do they want to put this battle up to contract, and the Same thing happens here that happens like when the Attackers put up the Attack. It gives grinding something Worthwhile to it, and it affects the climate of the Game. "You can make grinding Funner/more meaningful through EVE interaction, yes, but those two aren't chained together." The core aspect of a game should -never- revolve around repetition and redundant gameplay.



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