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Vespasian Andendare
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 15:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am curious if there is a thread or Dev sticky that has an ongoing list of issues being discussed by the player base and perhaps internally about Dust's most glaring deficiencies, grindy activities, what is successful, what is fun, etc.?
I see a lot of posts complaining about this fotm weapon being op or that fotm weapon being op, but I haven't found a list where we say:
Ok, this is what we like about the game:
And this is what most desperately needs fixing:
Just to clarify: I don't mean a list of pie-in-the-sky what ifs. I mean a list that we can look to to say "if this gets fixed, the game would be more fun." An example would be "matchmaking ought to be implemented asap, since proto pubstomps aren't working and have a negative effect at player adoption." Another example may be "as sp increases, damage output + survivability increases as well, widening the gap between the new player and the veteran. This hurts the new player experience, so how do we solve this conundrum?" |
HandOGod
Taints of Tartarus
24
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 15:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Likes A: Free. B: Fewer pre-pubescent tweens than other shooters. C: Plan for future free additional content.
Dislikes A: Pre-pubescent tweens and older players who act like pre-pubescent tweens B: Afkers C: Lavs don't take damage when they hit people |
steadyhand amarr
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
1046
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 15:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
To me it's not an ABC thing. The core idea of the game and its current implementation needs to go under a full rewrite and this time stick to their vision |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
580
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
A. New Eden - I like CCP and Eve, and I believe CCP is committed for the long haul. B. FTP w/ microtransaction model that IMO is done right, not P2W. Free content expansions forever. C. Teamwork, people use microphones, i like my corpmates.
Dislike:
A. Lack of a Dust market, much less an Eve-integrated market. B. Skill progression is slow even if you grind the cap every week, even slower if you don't. Skill tree itself is poorly designed, skill bonuses are not well defined, a lot of skills are unreasonably SP intensive (engineering/electronics), a lot of skills are useless relative to their SP cost, and many skills literally have no purpose/function except to unlock things (almost every skill should have some bonus associated with it). C. chat/communications and voice interface/performance are awful and completely inadequate to support the communication needed in this game. Ability to attach recorded sound clips to mails, display and edit MOTDs for channels, and support for using voice on a second channel (functionality of the 'channel commander' in Teamspeak) are required. Also tools for moderating channels within dust, and connect to more channels. |
Vespasian Andendare
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
steadyhand amarr wrote:To me it's not an ABC thing. The core idea of the game and its current implementation needs to go under a full rewrite and this time stick to their vision You have me intrigued about this bolded part. What exactly are you referring to here?
The "core idea of the game," as I understand it, is for a first person shooter MMO, where the emphasis is on character skill customization and having a real impact on a virtual universe through the shooter mechanics.
How would you change the current implementation? Why does it need a rewrite? I don't know if a rewrite is required or not.
I think there are a few key issues that need to be addressed, and I think they could solve the core idea of the game/implementation problem if done right:
Since there is a widening gap between new players and vets--linked to sp/gear/isk/general skill--there needs, then, to be areas of gameplay that become accessible when certain metrics are achieved. Areas of gameplay that offer more risk/higher reward-style--say, these "front line" areas would have the most impact to the Eve Universe but be the most dangerous, cost the most to maintain, and really "require" proto gear. So anyone could join (high risk/high reward) but the environment is less forgiving because of the proto gear death squads that the reward isn't worth it. (Think of current pub matches from the new players prospective.) There also needs to be some implementation of PVE so that players can play and enjoy Dust without having to be subjected to public matches as the only outlet. Hark back to the early days of Eve, CCP. Give us some "mining" to do to preoccupy our time. Let Dust become real, too. A strong--or hell, just any--pve environment gets people familiar with the controls and lets them have some action in the game as well. It doesn't have to be "perfect" now, it just needs to be.
"But this is EVE! It's a sandbox! The smallest frig can have an impact on day 1 against the biggest battleship!!" And while I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment as it relates to Eve, that same logic cannot be applied here. "The smallest frig" in this case is a new player in militia gear and the "biggest battleship" is a proto gear vet. But the new player, outside actual fps skill differences, cannot have such a major impact when he's getting stomped repeatedly by what is essentially a player that's in better gear, stronger weapons with better optimals, rates of fire, tank amounts, etc. So, unlike Eve, as gear improves here, the Merc actually gets stronger. It's not a class vs. class thing. It's not a paper, rock, scissors thing. Everyone is using rock, but some people have bigger rocks that go farther and hit harder. David and Goliath doesn't work here, since proto vets don't have an Achilles heel. |
Flax Ribbon
The Southern Legion
11
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
A. its free B. it exists within a persistent universe C. it isn't a twitch shooter
A. larger team sizes B. more maps/sockets C. RP strolls around the station, like having a market kiosk I could walk to outside of my clone tomb. |
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CCP Logibro
C C P C C P Alliance
334
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think you are looking for these threads: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34744&find=unread and https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34746&find=unread CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics
@CCP_Logibro |
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
2848
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 16:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
What I like the most: Lots of customization for (theoretically) vast diversity Vehicles being something we own and can customize, rather than just being part of the battlefield Semi-persistent universe (factional warfare and planetary conquest)
What needs fixing: ~It's too difficult to get into battles that matter (the persistent ones). It would be great if either we had more contracts- doesn't have to be factional warfare; it could just be battles over pirate territory and so forth. ~The game seems to be balanced too far in favor of infantry. Especially assault rifle users for that matter. ~More map diversity is needed. Even if it's just expanding existing maps. For example, manus peak borders skim junction to the north; why can't they be combined into a larger battlefield? |
Driftward
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
344
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 17:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote:steadyhand amarr wrote:To me it's not an ABC thing. The core idea of the game and its current implementation needs to go under a full rewrite and this time stick to their vision You have me intrigued about this bolded part. What exactly are you referring to here? The "core idea of the game," as I understand it, is for a first person shooter MMO, where the emphasis is on character skill customization and having a real impact on a virtual universe through the shooter mechanics. How would you change the current implementation? Why does it need a rewrite? I don't know if a rewrite is required or not. I think there are a few key issues that need to be addressed, and I think they could solve the core idea of the game/implementation problem if done right: Since there is a widening gap between new players and vets--linked to sp/gear/isk/general skill--there needs, then, to be areas of gameplay that become accessible when certain metrics are achieved. Areas of gameplay that offer more risk/higher reward-style--say, these "front line" areas would have the most impact to the Eve Universe but be the most dangerous, cost the most to maintain, and really "require" proto gear. So anyone could join (high risk/high reward) but the environment is less forgiving because of the proto gear death squads that the reward isn't worth it. (Think of current pub matches from the new players prospective.) There also needs to be some implementation of PVE so that players can play and enjoy Dust without having to be subjected to public matches as the only outlet. Hark back to the early days of Eve, CCP. Give us some "mining" to do to preoccupy our time. Let Dust become real, too. A strong--or hell, just any--pve environment gets people familiar with the controls and lets them have some action in the game as well. It doesn't have to be "perfect" now, it just needs to be. "But this is EVE! It's a sandbox! The smallest frig can have an impact on day 1 against the biggest battleship!!" And while I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment as it relates to Eve, that same logic cannot be applied here. "The smallest frig" in this case is a new player in militia gear and the "biggest battleship" is a proto gear vet. But the new player, outside actual fps skill differences, cannot have such a major impact when he's getting stomped repeatedly by what is essentially a player that's in better gear, stronger weapons with better optimals, rates of fire, tank amounts, etc. So, unlike Eve, as gear improves here, the Merc actually gets stronger. It's not a class vs. class thing. It's not a paper, rock, scissors thing. Everyone is using rock, but some people have bigger rocks that go farther and hit harder. David and Goliath doesn't work here, since proto vets don't have an Achilles heel.
I agree that PvE would solve quite a few issues by providing a non-proto stomp outlet if it was tuned correctly. However, in lieu of PvE the fixes to FW that Foxfour has talked about recently (with potential release around end of year/begining of next) would also be a huge help in funneling some of the proto rage outside of the pub matches.
Priority number 1 has to be to improve the new bro experience. Without a larger playerbase we can't expect CCP to keep throwing development (I expect some cliche remarks to the tune of "what development?!?" from trolls here) and money at this game. Now that core mechanics have gotten some love (and hopefully even more with 1.4 and 1.5) maybe we can get some of this truly new content/game modes.
Here's Hoping. |
Vespasian Andendare
Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 18:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Driftward wrote:I agree that PvE would solve quite a few issues by providing a non-proto stomp outlet if it was tuned correctly. However, in lieu of PvE the fixes to FW that Foxfour has talked about recently (with potential release around end of year/begining of next) would also be a huge help in funneling some of the proto rage outside of the pub matches.
Priority number 1 has to be to improve the new bro experience. Without a larger playerbase we can't expect CCP to keep throwing development (I expect some cliche remarks to the tune of "what development?!?" from trolls here) and money at this game. Now that core mechanics have gotten some love (and hopefully even more with 1.4 and 1.5) maybe we can get some of this truly new content/game modes.
Here's Hoping. That part I bolded and underlined, "Priority number 1 has to be to improve the new bro experience," is the meat of it. I can't stress it enough.
If the game doesn't appeal--indeed, I could say that it could actually cater--to new players, the game will be a non-starter. The new player experience has to be the #1 priority. It has to be appealing for the new player to get into. Once he's in--and hooked--then he can explore the FW, skills, stats, training, weapons, modules, vehicles, etc. But if you lose him at the door, all that iteration on "what if" doesn't matter. The player will be lost, and he'll never climb the chain into proto gear, use the Forge gun for the first time or experience how much fun the game *could* be, given the proper expansions, balance changes, etc.
I'm excited that the state of balance is getting there, and I'm excited about the ~monthly update schedule. But as long as new players are subjected to the grinder early on, it simply won't be worth the effort. Maybe a good change would be to put a spawn point (a severely gimped one) in every militia starter fit, so at least everyone could create spawn points for their team. New players incoming may not understand how important this is. Hell, I'll admit that I never equipped one until I got the "free" one in the Collector's Edition. After that, I saw that I get points from the spawns, and I realized how important it is that I could tactically create spawn points for my team (over just spawning "wherever). Had I not gotten it, I may still have a nano-injector equipped only to see my teammates killing themselves during the saving period, and it never seeing any use.
Shortening the WPs needed to exit the Academy isn't the solution. The Academy--a place where someone learns to play--I don't think is suited to just provide "more of the same"-style pub matches but only with newbros. We need an actual battle academy simulator where you are walked through the game and its mechanics. I know Eve didn't have any for the longest time, but look how critically important they are, considering that there isn't the current-Eve level of organization and structure in the game. And there's not even a "scrimmage room" where a buddy and I can battle 1v1 to learn the ropes. Surely, no one expects a new mercenary to have no prior experience and yet he'd just join the fray? |
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ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
1097
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 19:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
i think they are wanting a timeline vs priorities thing. |
Johnny Guilt
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
222
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 19:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
What is fun?
Likes (It's fun) A: Suit customization/aesthetic design to eve races B: Chat coms C: flying Dropships
Dislikes (it's not fun) A: stacked match matching B: Ambush spawns C: playing on maps that were map to incorporate every mode and fail |
Sjem'Tolk
Mercenaries On Duty
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 20:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is what I like about the game:
A - The camaraderie that the game can produce with fellow players. B - The large diverse selections of races, equipment choices and path of desired mercenary disciplines. C - The constant additions and tweaks to try to make the game an overall better game. D - Even when something is broken, the ability to leave a comment in the forums, knowing that eventually it will be fixed. E - The ability to send individuals ISK to help them.
And this is what I think most desperately needs fixing:
A - A channel in the forums which can easily be followed on the progress (or priority) of work in progress. (I know that there is a list of known bugs/issues, but it is not an obvious channel like the Feedback/Requests or the Technical Support/Bugs.) B - The disappearance of the body, but not the chevron, that we see in the scopes after someone reaches a certain distance (yet I am still able to do damage for a short distance past their body disappearing - but please do not nerf the distance for damage, just increase the distance to be able to see the body.) C - The scopes in sniper rifles (zoom factor, over crowed viewer info in a crowd.) D - A way to see the correct stats for all the mods/items you have in use on a clone. I do not know exactly what my scan radius, scan profile, or precision is with the mods that I have, nor do I know the distance or accuracy of my guns. E - Change the percentages for some items according to what they are using; for instance, the Sniper Rifle Ammo Capacity at 5% will only give you a total 7 to 8 bullets, where the 5% for a Submachine Gun will give you approximately 150% increase in the number of bullets (or 22 bullets for maxing out the Submachine Gun Ammo Capacity for the 'Syndicate' Submachine Gun.) There are other mods that are similar, where depending on the equipment or mod, it doesn't pay to skill up; and if it doesn't pay to skill up, why bother having that skill available. F - An anti-missle chaff, or some way to try to defend the dropship and (especially) tanks from being destroyed so easily/quickly. I hate that a MLT, using MLT equipment can destroy my tank before I can get away (every time), or the fact that many swam's (of equal levels) have a further range than my tank and can destroy me easier, and faster, than I can either get them or hi-tail it out of there.
And this is what would be nice to consider for implementation and/or priority in the game:
A - A way for players to vote on what they would like to see as the top priorities for problems and/or additions to the game. B - A way to sell/trade items in the (very, Very, VERY) near future.
|
THE TRAINSPOTTER
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
73
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 20:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
HandOGod wrote:Likes A: Free. B: Fewer pre-pubescent tweens than other shooters. C: Plan for future free additional content.
Dislikes A: Pre-pubescent tweens and older players who act like pre-pubescent tweens B: Afkers C: Lavs don't take damage when they hit people they take damage its just that you too small and insignificant to make a LAV explode from impact like you wish, now if you were a tank...
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THE TRAINSPOTTER
ROMANIA Renegades C0VEN
73
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 20:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
i also hate AURUM , lag and nerfs
i like LLAV |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1824
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 21:44:00 -
[16] - Quote
On that point, it doesn't seem like that other "known issues" sticky in technical support gets updated regularly. |
steadyhand amarr
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
1051
|
Posted - 2013.08.09 21:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote:steadyhand amarr wrote:To me it's not an ABC thing. The core idea of the game and its current implementation needs to go under a full rewrite and this time stick to their vision You have me intrigued about this bolded part. What exactly are you referring to here? The "core idea of the game," as I understand it, is for a first person shooter MMO, where the emphasis is on character skill customization and having a real impact on a virtual universe through the shooter mechanics. How would you change the current implementation? Why does it need a rewrite? I don't know if a rewrite is required or not. I think there are a few key issues that need to be addressed, and I think they could solve the core idea of the game/implementation problem if done right: Since there is a widening gap between new players and vets--linked to sp/gear/isk/general skill--there needs, then, to be areas of gameplay that become accessible when certain metrics are achieved. Areas of gameplay that offer more risk/higher reward-style--say, these "front line" areas would have the most impact to the Eve Universe but be the most dangerous, cost the most to maintain, and really "require" proto gear. So anyone could join (high risk/high reward) but the environment is less forgiving because of the proto gear death squads that the reward isn't worth it. (Think of current pub matches from the new players prospective.) There also needs to be some implementation of PVE so that players can play and enjoy Dust without having to be subjected to public matches as the only outlet. Hark back to the early days of Eve, CCP. Give us some "mining" to do to preoccupy our time. Let Dust become real, too. A strong--or hell, just any--pve environment gets people familiar with the controls and lets them have some action in the game as well. It doesn't have to be "perfect" now, it just needs to be. "But this is EVE! It's a sandbox! The smallest frig can have an impact on day 1 against the biggest battleship!!" And while I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment as it relates to Eve, that same logic cannot be applied here. "The smallest frig" in this case is a new player in militia gear and the "biggest battleship" is a proto gear vet. But the new player, outside actual fps skill differences, cannot have such a major impact when he's getting stomped repeatedly by what is essentially a player that's in better gear, stronger weapons with better optimals, rates of fire, tank amounts, etc. So, unlike Eve, as gear improves here, the Merc actually gets stronger. It's not a class vs. class thing. It's not a paper, rock, scissors thing. Everyone is using rock, but some people have bigger rocks that go farther and hit harder. David and Goliath doesn't work here, since proto vets don't have an Achilles heel.
i shall do a big long post tomorrow so maybe the devs can understand at least my frustration. in like a catch pharse.
eve is sandbox with lots of toys to build your standcastle.
dust is like a gated park where older you get the more you get to push around the little kids and now the big boys have decided to sit on the swings so noone gets to play. every now someone from the sandbox pops over to say hi
really simple terms: we dont have a sandbox we have a lobby shooter that does not work correctly
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LRMXxX
What The French CRONOS.
43
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 00:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
I started reading wang's thread from the first post and was like "Oh plenty of cool stuff comming up" and then I noticed it was posted in 2012... |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic
5363
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 03:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
LIKE Scifi, I like scifi
Different races with distinct art styles to their gear
Low damage/high health strafe shooter
Fitting customization
Installations
Falling from MCC is pretty cool
Free
Three distinct dropsuit frame sizes that branch into specializations.
Fitting depleted by death
I have an automatic laser gun made of gold, (assault scrambler rifle) not many games let me have that
Non-generic FPS guns: charge fire guns, grenade gun, missile pistol, continuous laser guns
Items have variations
Calling in vehicles instead of waiting for vehicle spawns
There is a headshot noise, that's cool to have
Vehicles having active modules to heal, harden, and other stuff is pretty unique for FPS
Modular maps
DISLIKE Grindfest; the game is more about getting SP than actual fun.
Boring maps
Interesting places like lava planets won't be available for a very long time.
Boring very few game modes; no attack/defend modes, no multi-stage modes
No PVE
Imbalance; LAV collision damage against infantry, dropship suckiness, AV vs vehicles, armor vs shields, Caldari HAV vs Gallente, LLAVs should be a sidegrade and not an upgrade, scout LAVs are a downgrade, light/scout suits suck, HMG range is terrible, laser is useless etc
Lack of content; guns, maps, outposts, dropsuits, vehicles, etc
Nothing about the gameplay really stands out. Its pretty bland.
Tier system and SP system create too much of a gap between new and old players. There should be more sidegrade, and less upgrade
No attempt to explain the setting and lore of New Eden to new players
Only 32 players when its advertised as 48 players (and before it was advertised as 64)
No real meaningful EVE-Dust connection, they promised us Dust mercs could be hired by EVE players to fight over their valuable stuff, they promised us a unified EVE-Dust economy, and most recently they promised us the ability to board titan ships and fight for control of them. None of that is coming any time soon.
Feels like a regular lobby shooter. I explain here what I mean, and what I want; for example I want to be able to walk around the battlefield after a battle is over and manually salvage items if I'm on the winning team.
No player trading, can't even sell assets.
Lack of social spaces for corps, strangers, can't invite people to your MQ.
Graphics issues, like how bad the MCC explosion looks.
No trophies
Not enough stats are tracked.
No facial customization + helmet off option in MQ/War barge.
WAR POINT system is garbage: things like cancelling enemy hacks not rewarded, CRU and supply depots are very important but their destruction is rewarded less than the destruction of turret installations, no destruction points for enemy deployable equipment, no WP for active scanner spot assists, kill/destruction assists don't factor in how much damage you did for WP gain, no WP for people spawning on your mobile CRU.
We were promised MCC commader positions so leaders could pilot their team's MCC, and direct their team RTS-style, this was back in 2009. STILL NOT HERE.
We were also promised the ability to buy and call down installations where we want, also not here.
Crap NPE. I have watched new players struggle not just fighting vet, but also understanding the basic menus of the game (like chat menu, squads, etc). It takes an annoying amount of time, hours to get a newb to understand things, its too much of a hassle to teach them myself.
[*] Crap matchmaking |
Avinash Decker
Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic
64
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 04:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:LIKE Scifi, I like scifi
Different races with distinct art styles to their gear
Low damage/high health strafe shooter
Fitting customization
Installations
Falling from MCC is pretty cool
Free
Three distinct dropsuit frame sizes that branch into specializations.
Fitting depleted by death
I have an automatic laser gun made of gold, (assault scrambler rifle) not many games let me have that
Non-generic FPS guns: charge fire guns, grenade gun, missile pistol, continuous laser guns
Items have variations
Calling in vehicles instead of waiting for vehicle spawns
There is a headshot noise, that's cool to have
Vehicles having active modules to heal, harden, and other stuff is pretty unique for FPS
Modular maps
DISLIKE Grindfest; the game is more about getting SP than actual fun.
Boring maps
Interesting places like lava planets won't be available for a very long time.
Boring very few game modes; no attack/defend modes, no multi-stage modes
No PVE
Imbalance; LAV collision damage against infantry, dropship suckiness, AV vs vehicles, armor vs shields, Caldari HAV vs Gallente, LLAVs should be a sidegrade and not an upgrade, scout LAVs are a downgrade, light/scout suits suck, HMG range is terrible, etc
Lack of content; guns, maps, outposts, dropsuits, vehicles, etc
Nothing about the gameplay really stands out. Its pretty bland.
Tier system and SP system create too much of a gap between new and old players. There should be more sidegrade, and less upgrade
No attempt to explain the setting and lore of New Eden to new players
Only 32 players when its advertised as 48 players (and before it was advertised as 64)
No real meaningful EVE-Dust connection, they promised us Dust mercs could be hired by EVE players to fight over their valuable stuff, they promised us a unified EVE-Dust economy, and most recently they promised us the ability to board titan ships and fight for control of them. None of that is coming any time soon.
Feels like a regular lobby shooter. I explain here what I mean, and what I want; for example I want to be able to walk around the battlefield after a battle is over and manually salvage items if I'm on the winning team.
No player trading, can't even sell assets.
Lack of social spaces for corps, strangers, can't invite people to your MQ.
Graphics issues, like how bad the MCC explosion looks.
No trophies
Not enough stats are tracked.
No facial customization + helmet off option in MQ/War barge.
WAR POINT system is garbage: things like cancelling enemy hacks not rewarded, CRU and supply depots are very important but their destruction is rewarded less than the destruction of turret installations, no destruction points for enemy deployable equipment, no WP for active scanner spot assists, kill/destruction assists don't factor in how much damage you did for WP gain, no WP for people spawning on your mobile CRU.
We were promised MCC commader positions so leaders could pilot their team's MCC, and direct their team RTS-style, this was back in 2009. STILL NOT HERE.
We were also promised the ability to buy and call down installations where we want, also not here.
Crap NPE. I have watched new players struggle not just fighting vet, but also understanding the basic menus of the game (like chat menu, squads, etc). It takes an annoying amount of time, hours to get a newb to understand things, its too much of a hassle to teach them myself.
Crap matchmaking
I still very much like the game
The more I think about it the more I think the beta was a waste of time. Some of the stuff they found during the closed and open beta , could have been found internally . But a lot probably wouldn't I guess. |
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