Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Fraceska
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have played EVE-Online for a very long time and I understand that EVE had a very steep learning curve but it had safe areas were the more experienced players could not access without great risk to themselves. The setting itself is very awesome. So when I started playing Dust not to long ago I've come to a realization that this game is not balanced between new and old players. You click find a match that first time you can be going against people who've played since the beginning with millions of SP under their belts and all the high meta-level gear to go with it.
So here you are with starting SP and militia gear, maybe even a few friends to set out into the expanse universe that is EVE. But then you begin to realize that you stand no chance against people who are in higher end gear with weapons that cut through your militia armor like a hot knife through butter and that your starting weapons barely dent their shields or armor.
To say that a knowledge of maps and tactics can offset that remember that people are coming into this brand new and have no such knowledge about how EVE/Dust is with character progression and where to put skills for the most return. When I started EVE it took 3 tries to get the Race/Faction/Attribute point spread right so my character could actually do stuff, and then trained the learning skills to be able to learn things in a reasonable time frame, but again I had friendly zones were experienced players could not easily reach.
My hope would be that CCP addresses the parity disparity between people and squads before mashing them all together. Such a brutal first few times combine with a steep learning curve will drive people away from this game. The only reason I still play is I understand how the game is set-up and what it takes to become good at it. |
gbghg
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
445
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
one of the ideas i've seen bouncing around the forums is a gear limit on certain matches, to prevent people bringing proto gear against newberries, another idea i saw was the same thing but an sp restriction, to stop people with a large amount of sp going up against the newberries, people are talking about this kind of problem so ccp might take notice. |
Starshine Etherium
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cry more |
Logi Bro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
838
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
The thing is, Dust doesn't have large gaps between gear like EvE does. If I am wrong, correct me please, because I have not played (nor do I intend to play) EvE ever. But it was my impression that attacking an advanced ship in EvE with a newberry ship would be the Dust equivalent of me shooting a Sagaris with a militia sub-machine gun. Completely ineffective.
However, attacking an advanced suit in Dust (proto) with a newberry suit (militia) can still be achieved, even if it is with difficulty.
This is just my assumption why we don't have segregation like EvE. |
Technical-Support
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
21
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP already addressed this issue not only by the flattening of gear/weapons, but also removing the camera's off of the assault rifle. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Um, I'm not sure I see the problem.
Every single level in this game will be a 100% safe zone. If you're using free equipment. So... Doesn't that mean players are in 100% control over how much risk they want to put themselves and where? |
Harkon Vysarii
Dead Six Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just so you know....there are people on the forums complaining contrary to what you are saying, that being that Militia gear is too good.....
In all honesty there isnt a huge difference in gear types.... excepting say those few who do run things like a duvolle and 3 complex weapons mods....but that is truely few and far between.
For me Dust did have a steep learning curve, that being that I cannot treat this game like a typical FPS an that I cant take on more than one target at a time not matter what gear or how good im playing that day. |
Fraceska
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nguruthos IX wrote:Um, I'm not sure I see the problem.
Every single level in this game will be a 100% safe zone. If you're using free equipment. So... Doesn't that mean players are in 100% control over how much risk they want to put themselves and where?
What does it matter if its free if you can barely hurt another player in more advanced gear without the assist which nets less WP than a real kill?
I am not crying about it, just an observation that my friends who play more mainstream FPS games won't care for Dust due to its learning curve and gear difference. |
Kesi Raae Kaae
Much Crying Old Experts
41
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dust needs better matchmaking and the devs are making a continuing effort to improve it.
I'm sure by the time Dust is out of beta the new player experience will have greatly improved. |
Yagihige
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
181
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
We seriously need tiered levels for battles. |
|
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1930
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
I for one think you're totally right, and it puts a bad taste in many players mouth, mine included. I don't have very much fun in DUST anymore, been playing since March. I only sign in now to bang out my SP, then I sign directly off.
There's nothing fun about redlining a bunch of new players 5 or 6 games in a row. It's boring and pathetic. |
N1ck Comeau
REGULATORS OF VALOR Orion Empire
42
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
I see threads like this all the time, why shoulo'nt a experienced player be better in the game the a new player thats like comparing a pro basketball player to an average adult. If a new player wants to get better he will have to play to get better. you don't gain any skill from playing enemies worse then you or even the same level |
Technical-Support
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
22
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Technical-Support wrote:CCP already addressed this issue not only by the flattening of gear/weapons, but also removing the camera's off of the assault rifle.
|
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fraceska wrote:Nguruthos IX wrote:Um, I'm not sure I see the problem.
Every single level in this game will be a 100% safe zone. If you're using free equipment. So... Doesn't that mean players are in 100% control over how much risk they want to put themselves and where? What does it matter if its free if you can barely hurt another player in more advanced gear without the assist which nets less WP than a real kill? I am not crying about it, just an observation that my friends who play more mainstream FPS games won't care for Dust due to its learning curve and gear difference.
idk. I've been using free gear every single game and I don't feel massively underpowered. I can do well if I try. I only started using a few <10k suits but they're not really for improved performance. |
Fraceska
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 21:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:I see threads like this all the time, why shoulo'nt a experienced player be better in the game the a new player thats like comparing a pro basketball player to an average adult. If a new player wants to get better he will have to play to get better. you don't gain any skill from playing enemies worse then you or even the same level
In business you need to appeal to the widest market possible to remain a viable company. Alienating a potential customer base to let the experienced players feel good about themselves by showing newer customers "how the game is played" you ruin your survivability.
I would want to see CCPs surveys that displays playability and likability for Dust 514 divided out between new and old players and see if your assumption holds up under an accurate business model. I don't believe that it will. |
GeneralButtNaked
Burnwall Industries
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:I see threads like this all the time, why shoulo'nt a experienced player be better in the game the a new player thats like comparing a pro basketball player to an average adult. If a new player wants to get better he will have to play to get better. you don't gain any skill from playing enemies worse then you or even the same level
Using your comparison, do they let middle school teams play in the NBA? Of course not.
So why are new players stuck in matches against stacked teams with say two squads from top ten corps?
The idea of tiered matches by SP makes the most sense. Put a high cap of say 4+ million SP, and say that no one below 1.5 million SP faces those with more than 4 mill. Doesn't negate playing against better, or more experienced players, but it does give the brand new players a chance to get their feet wet without getting roflstomped all the time. |
N1ck Comeau
REGULATORS OF VALOR Orion Empire
42
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
GeneralButtNaked wrote:N1ck Comeau wrote:I see threads like this all the time, why shoulo'nt a experienced player be better in the game the a new player thats like comparing a pro basketball player to an average adult. If a new player wants to get better he will have to play to get better. you don't gain any skill from playing enemies worse then you or even the same level Using your comparison, do they let middle school teams play in the NBA? Of course not. So why are new players stuck in matches against stacked teams with say two squads from top ten corps? The idea of tiered matches by SP makes the most sense. Put a high cap of say 4+ million SP, and say that no one below 1.5 million SP faces those with more than 4 mill. Doesn't negate playing against better, or more experienced players, but it does give the brand new players a chance to get their feet wet without getting roflstomped all the time. I'm just saying i believe its fine the way it is. I'm a good player better then average in my opinion and i can still get wrecked sometimes. Your idea is a good one but in all honesty they don't need to change it at all new players will deal with the troubles of facing tougher enemies |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1930
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:I'm just saying i believe its fine the way it is. I'm a good player better then average in my opinion and i can still get wrecked sometimes. Your idea is a good one but in all honesty they don't need to change it at all new players will deal with the troubles of facing tougher enemies
This is so selfish. Because you personally don't get stomped into the ground trying to learn the game with no skills or gear, trying to wrap your head around a big (eventually massive) skill tree and marketplace....that there somehow isn't a problem?
I just think you can only get kills off newbies, so a change like this would force you to compete, and that's just way too much to ask. |
Fraceska
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote:I'm just saying i believe its fine the way it is. I'm a good player better then average in my opinion and i can still get wrecked sometimes. Your idea is a good one but in all honesty they don't need to change it at all new players will deal with the troubles of facing tougher enemies
And with that mindset how do you intend to keep your player base intact? How will you attract more players? And once you get them to try it out, how will you keep them from playing when their first few dozen games will go poorly unless they get matched with a really good team on their side?
Me personally? I don't mind it so much because I remember gate camping in EVE and blasting away so it is like karma and that's fine. But to people who don't have such a mindset the game would prove incredibly frustrating and unfair very quickly. |
Technical-Support
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
23
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
removing the SP cap is the only way to give new players a fair chance. |
|
GeneralButtNaked
Burnwall Industries
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
N1ck Comeau wrote: I'm just saying i believe its fine the way it is. I'm a good player better then average in my opinion and i can still get wrecked sometimes. Your idea is a good one but in all honesty they don't need to change it at all new players will deal with the troubles of facing tougher enemies
How much SP do you have? If you have more than say 1 million, you have had a chance to develop your critical first skills to make yourself not a complete punching bag. This alone gives you a huge step up compared to a brand new guy, with no knowledge of what he is up against.
This big thing I am concerned with is driving new players away by allowing them to get massacred until they can either skill up the right way or get bleed enough to finally learn.
I, of course have no problem playing against rookies. Nothing funnier than watching some poor rookie have no idea that he can't fight a heavy.
But when you put yourself in that guys shoes, you can't help but pity the poor guy at least a little. He can do almost nothing to a 1100 HP heavy, especially with his new gear, and me having a logi with me. He might get a lucky grenade, but is that what we want new players to experience?
I think it would be in the long term interests of the DUST community to give new players a place to learn without the pressures of getting beaten up so badly that they quit.
Now, before anyone says that the newberries need to HTFU, I think we should consider that the only way any F2P game survives is by having a large playerbase. You can have a steep learning curve or you can throw everyone into the same pit. But doing both seems like a recipe for keeping the game population very small, especially once the majority of CB and the first wave of OB people are all in ISK protos. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thing is I don't think I'm good at FPS. I generally hate them. I'm ok at this game, and I feel ok. I don't use ISK gear and haven't felt this "newbie wall" you're talking about.
All new players should know one thing about the skills and they'll be fine. Don't spend points unless you're sure that's what you want. It WILL take a bit of reading and thinking but ultimately nothing is totally wasted. And there's no other way around it. Takes time. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
That being said, I think the thing most frustrating about playing is just a result of small map sizes.
Currently if you want to survive there's a few ways to do it. Close range guns dominate in these small maps. When the game has larger maps, there will be more room for specialization and picking what you like to do will be simpler since all things will be more balanced. You won't feel that by wanting to be a sniper, there's too little room and too many people spawning on top of you.
Whatever that thing is where people 1 shot me from 10 feet away in a second is lame. But I don't mind it because A: maps will get larger B: If i really just wanted to not get owned I'd play more tactically. |
Coleman Gray
Coalition Of Goverments
62
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
My first kill in this game was when I shot a proto guy with my forge gun XD |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:My first kill in this game was when I shot a proto guy with my forge gun XD Hate to derail but how can you identify people with proto gear? |
GeneralButtNaked
Burnwall Industries
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nguruthos IX wrote:That being said, I think the thing most frustrating about playing is just a result of small map sizes.
Currently if you want to survive there's a few ways to do it. Close range guns dominate in these small maps. When the game has larger maps, there will be more room for specialization and picking what you like to do will be simpler since all things will be more balanced. You won't feel that by wanting to be a sniper, there's too little room and too many people spawning on top of you.
Whatever that thing is where people 1 shot me from 10 feet away in a second is lame. But I don't mind it because A: maps will get larger B: If i really just wanted to not get owned I'd play more tactically.
This is not relevant to the topic at hand. Map size has almost nothing to do with being stuck in starter fits with no skills and having to face players with 4 million or more SP.
The issue is about how new players get treated under the current system and if there might be a better system to allow new players to experience the game without getting stepped on and discouraged.
EDIT: Proto Suits are black. Shiny for the ISK ones, not so shiny for the Aurum protos. |
Fraceska
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nguruthos IX wrote:Whatever that thing is where people 1 shot me from 10 feet away in a second is lame. But I don't mind it because A: maps will get larger B: If i really just wanted to not get owned I'd play more tactically.
A. Maps will indeed get larger but then those who have maxed out SP for snipers, scout armor and cloak will just simply roll over those newer people who don't know what to look for. The development team will need to very carefully balance LoS. Got to make it fair to both sides otherwise it will just be dueling snipers for 3+km away because that would then be the only viable way to survive if it is to open. If it is to cluttered then why be a sniper at all? Which then shotguns/heavies camping around tight corners would come to dominate. No one would win and all the time time they spent trying to make each niche fun and viable will be wasted. So even with expanded map sizes there should be a tiered combat system.
B. So how is spawning beside an enemy and getting killed instantly have anything to do with or without tactics? That is another big thing I believe needs to be worked on is the ease in which a team can get spawned trapped. I die once near the end of the game but because of spawn traps I suddenly have 5+ deaths at the end of a match?
I understand that this game is still in beta but it is clear they have a ways to go. But EVE-Online is like one of my favorite games ever so I have faith CCP will do well by it. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
GeneralButtNaked wrote:Nguruthos IX wrote:That being said, I think the thing most frustrating about playing is just a result of small map sizes.
Currently if you want to survive there's a few ways to do it. Close range guns dominate in these small maps. When the game has larger maps, there will be more room for specialization and picking what you like to do will be simpler since all things will be more balanced. You won't feel that by wanting to be a sniper, there's too little room and too many people spawning on top of you.
Whatever that thing is where people 1 shot me from 10 feet away in a second is lame. But I don't mind it because A: maps will get larger B: If i really just wanted to not get owned I'd play more tactically. This is not relevant to the topic at hand. Map size has almost nothing to do with being stuck in starter fits with no skills and having to face players with 4 million or more SP. The issue is about how new players get treated under the current system and if there might be a better system to allow new players to experience the game without getting stepped on and discouraged. EDIT: Proto Suits are black. Shiny for the ISK ones, not so shiny for the Aurum protos.
I beg to differ. You point to the problem being new players that might leave before giving the game a chance. One aspect of that, and gear difference, is the frequency of being 1hko. 1hKO's are saturated in these compact maps full of people who all specd those millions of SP into close range guns or heavy machine guns and broken/bugged damage mods.
Fix mods, spread out the map and people won't feel so weak and helpless. |
Nguruthos IX
Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Fraceska wrote:Nguruthos IX wrote:Whatever that thing is where people 1 shot me from 10 feet away in a second is lame. But I don't mind it because A: maps will get larger B: If i really just wanted to not get owned I'd play more tactically. A. Maps will indeed get larger but then those who have maxed out SP for snipers, scout armor and cloak will just simply roll over those newer people who don't know what to look for. The development team will need to very carefully balance LoS. Got to make it fair to both sides otherwise it will just be dueling snipers for 3+km away because that would then be the only viable way to survive if it is to open. If it is to cluttered then why be a sniper at all? Which then shotguns/heavies camping around tight corners would come to dominate. No one would win and all the time time they spent trying to make each niche fun and viable will be wasted. So even with expanded map sizes there should be a tiered combat system. B. So how is spawning beside an enemy and getting killed instantly have anything to do with or without tactics? That is another big thing I believe needs to be worked on is the ease in which a team can get spawned trapped. I die once near the end of the game but because of spawn traps I suddenly have 5+ deaths at the end of a match? I understand that this game is still in beta but it is clear they have a ways to go. But EVE-Online is like one of my favorite games ever so I have faith CCP will do well by it.
Hence "transport" vehicles. New players won't have to trek the whole map on foot under sniper file in a flat desert. They'll be flying or cruising along in some generous person's ship/car dropping them off into closer range action. Areas which I'm assuming will be walled up like that one map making outside snipers less able to get a clear shot on most of the facilities locations |
Rustonius
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.02 22:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
To OP, you know I crunched some numbers myself. Asking a question along the same lines. noob to max infantry power comparison let me just say there is an error in the damage comparison, I was comparing regular assault to tactical. I never did go back and update it now that I've played.
I started with hoping each match I get 1:1 k/d and was happy when I did. But really if you die more then 5 times, just stop, I should have, I was being selfish. 80 clones, 16 people, more then 4 deaths and you're using someone else's clone. And man is it hard to get your k/d up, with so many deaths, I started with around .95 k/d and now up to 1.55. And I have points all over the place, first thing I did was put points only in skills to open up all other skills and buy their skill books. I don't regret that ... too much. Anyways, i,'m not great but I can get upwards of 10:1 ratio wise now. And I did that without having max shields/damage mods/rifle skill etc.
Now that I have around 3 million sp I think I can take anyone out 1v1 as long as I don't spaz out too much. Don't get me wrong I have my arch nemesis. If only they could see the evil eye and hear the crunching sound from my controller as I twist it in disgust. (Last few nights, that ***** hole eclipze or eclair or some such, I can't remember, all I see is red when I try to recall. Or some dbag tanker dougz or dougan or some such, every night around 2am I used to get in a match opposite him in his tank, one night I spent the entire match in a logi suit with 3 nano hives and a lvl 1 swarmer nonstop shooting him every 5ish seconds for a continuous few minutes. Apparently he ***** gold because non stop hitting him didn't take more then 10-20% shield of that PoS tank. So I deleted any AV fit I had, I don't think i've seen him anymore, but maybe because I ignore all vehicles now. Been better for my k/d)
All tangents aside, don't worry about the sp difference (or as you put, gear). Its not that bad in reality in all honesty having played about 1 month. Never played before that or had any knowledge of the game.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |