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Landari Zeta
Exit Wound Heavy Industries
16
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Posted - 2013.01.30 23:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
I love tanks. I really do. I have one problem about them though.
They aren't OP.
You are all probably thinking, "Wow what a tard, wanting OP tanks!"
Everything else is OP, why not have the tanks scale up with the rest of everything?
Lets think about it for a minute. A tank should be an Infantry Support vehicle. It should make a presence on the battlefield, forcing infantry to take cover and call in their own tanks to kill you.
During WWII the Sherman tank was meant to keep infantry huddled up in a corner until they can call in some air support or have a Tiger take it out. That is how tanks should be handled, like they were originally designed. Every German soldier didn't have an Anti-Tank rocket, why should everyone in DUST? I felt like this was the same problem in Battlefield. There is just no incentive to get into a tank knowing everybody and their grandmother have access to a powerful Anti-Tank solution immediately upon respawning.
The tanks in DUST have two problems: they have no splash damage and they die WAY too quickly by infantry, the one thing they are supposed to suppress. Even a well tanked Soma can die to a single newbie with a Militia Swarm Launcher or Militia AV Grenades.
"Well try to not get in a bad position to get hit with AV Grenades," some of you may say. That isn't the point. People should be saying, "Oh my God they have a tank," instead of ,"Sweet Jesus a full tank! Free Points!"
Now onto tank damage. Its big, but only against other vehicles. Sure, you can just keep popping jeeps with a 80GJ Railgun but I feel that is NOT what a tank should be meant for. Just killing Jeeps. So I would like to see splash damage. Not necessarily from the Railgun, but from the Blaster too.
The Railguns I can see having low splash damage. Its a solid chunk of non explosive metal streaking to its target.
Blasters on the other hand need to change. Having to hit someone square in the chest 4-6 times with a Large tank mounted weapon seems completely idiotic. It's a Large Blaster, not a machine gun. Blasters in the EVE universe fire "globs" of superheated plasma at a target. It should at least have some splash damage.
But that is just my two cents. I understand half of you will disagree with me, but as a Tank driver I just want to express my ideas. |
TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation
Test Friends Please Ignore
326
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Posted - 2013.01.30 23:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Are you referring to paper thin militia tanks? |
Landari Zeta
Exit Wound Heavy Industries
16
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Posted - 2013.01.30 23:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not just Militia tanks. Those are basically on par with Rookie ships in EVE. I have seen Gunloggi's melt from just being poked at by infantry. |
Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
433
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
i'm pretty sure blasters have some kind of splash.. it's only about 1m tho |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
thanks feel like big heavies.
and that really is all there is to them. just a different class of weapon takes to destroy them and there is definitely no shortage in that.
i do like being immune to snipers, even though they still constantly shoot at my tank anyway.
hard part is keeping them under 200k so i still make isk a match because i know i will lose the tank. |
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous
SyNergy Gaming
242
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
In WW2... or any war... tanks didnt go rushing into a mass of enemies thinking they could take on the world, they held positions and moved up as infantry took territory in front of them. Some people may call these -real- tank drivers of past and present as pussies, but its more in line of being smart and not wanting to die (and actually fulfilling their role)
Maybe more tank drivers should be less stupid? All the good ones are cautious and dont over extend. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote:In WW2... or any war... tanks didnt go rushing into a mass of enemies thinking they could take on the world, they held positions and moved up as infantry took territory in front of them. Some people may call these -real- tank drivers of past and present as pussies, but its more in line of being smart and not wanting to die (and actually fulfilling their role)
Maybe more tank drivers should be less stupid? All the good ones are cautious and dont over extend.
red line tanks are realistic tanks, you don't put your artillery in reach of the enemy |
Landari Zeta
Exit Wound Heavy Industries
16
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote:In WW2... or any war... tanks didnt go rushing into a mass of enemies thinking they could take on the world, they held positions and moved up as infantry took territory in front of them. Some people may call these -real- tank drivers of past and present as pussies, but its more in line of being smart and not wanting to die (and actually fulfilling their role)
Maybe more tank drivers should be less stupid? All the good ones are cautious and dont over extend.
Yes, that is how it should be. It's also how you have to drive a tank in DUST. In regards to your first sentence, current M1 Abrams in the US Army stroll down the streets of the Middle East and just absorb RPG's without much problems.
|
knight of 6
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
yes. also your soma isn't "well tanked" if it can't take a militia swarm.
i think the simplest possible solution is to remove the AV starter fit. 99% of problem solved right there. swarms/forges don't get nerfed, god tanks don't make a return, and the tank becomes feared again.
you have a dedicated AV fit, congrats i will fear you. you don't? SOL buddy.
AV nades could be harder to get, there should be sacrifice to combat effectiveness to run something a tank needs to worry about. perhaps they should take tons of cpu of pg? (i don't like the nerf word) |
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous
SyNergy Gaming
242
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Landari Zeta wrote:Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote:In WW2... or any war... tanks didnt go rushing into a mass of enemies thinking they could take on the world, they held positions and moved up as infantry took territory in front of them. Some people may call these -real- tank drivers of past and present as pussies, but its more in line of being smart and not wanting to die (and actually fulfilling their role)
Maybe more tank drivers should be less stupid? All the good ones are cautious and dont over extend. Yes, that is how it should be. It's also how you have to drive a tank in DUST. In regards to your first sentence, current M1 Abrams in the US Army stroll down the streets of the Middle East and just absorb RPG's without much problems.
Yeah, but even Abrams wont go push the line of a heavy fire fight, they will at most go forward with the troops, they never go ahead. |
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Landari Zeta
Exit Wound Heavy Industries
16
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Posted - 2013.01.30 23:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:yes. also your soma isn't "well tanked" if it can't take a militia swarm.
i think the simplest possible solution is to remove the AV starter fit. 99% of problem solved right there. swarms/forges don't get nerfed, god tanks don't make a return, and the tank becomes feared again.
you have a dedicated AV fit, congrats i will fear you. you don't? SOL buddy.
AV nades could be harder to get, there should be sacrifice to combat effectiveness to run something a tank needs to worry about. perhaps they should take tons of cpu of pg? (i don't like the nerf word)
I feel like they should remove the AV Starter kit too. If people want to kill tanks, they should just be required to stop on by to the market any buy the stuff themselves instead of having an easy access to free Swarm Launchers. And just in all honesty, remove AV Grenades. Replace them with AT mines or something. A grenade that can go through tank armor? Please. |
General Tiberius1
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
206
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:yes. also your soma isn't "well tanked" if it can't take a militia swarm.
i think the simplest possible solution is to remove the AV starter fit. 99% of problem solved right there. swarms/forges don't get nerfed, god tanks don't make a return, and the tank becomes feared again.
you have a dedicated AV fit, congrats i will fear you. you don't? SOL buddy.
AV nades could be harder to get, there should be sacrifice to combat effectiveness to run something a tank needs to worry about. perhaps they should take tons of cpu of pg? (i don't like the nerf word)
IF I'M CLOSE ENOUGH TO LOB AN av NADE AT YOU, YOUR TURRET OPERATORS SHOULD BE ABLE TO BLOW ME TO HELL
kittens, caps lock on, my bad....too lazy to fix though |
Landari Zeta
Exit Wound Heavy Industries
16
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote:Landari Zeta wrote:Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous wrote:In WW2... or any war... tanks didnt go rushing into a mass of enemies thinking they could take on the world, they held positions and moved up as infantry took territory in front of them. Some people may call these -real- tank drivers of past and present as pussies, but its more in line of being smart and not wanting to die (and actually fulfilling their role)
Maybe more tank drivers should be less stupid? All the good ones are cautious and dont over extend. Yes, that is how it should be. It's also how you have to drive a tank in DUST. In regards to your first sentence, current M1 Abrams in the US Army stroll down the streets of the Middle East and just absorb RPG's without much problems. Yeah, but even Abrams wont go push the line of a heavy fire fight, they will at most go forward with the troops, they never go ahead.
You are correct. That is why a tank is, by definition, an Infantry Support platform. If anything can rampage through entire armies it should be an MTAC. For those who don't know, an MTAC is a mech in the EVE lore. |
Val'herik Dorn
CrimeWave Syndicate
264
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 23:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:yes. also your soma isn't "well tanked" if it can't take a militia swarm.
i think the simplest possible solution is to remove the AV starter fit. 99% of problem solved right there. swarms/forges don't get nerfed, god tanks don't make a return, and the tank becomes feared again.
you have a dedicated AV fit, congrats i will fear you. you don't? SOL buddy.
AV nades could be harder to get, there should be sacrifice to combat effectiveness to run something a tank needs to worry about. perhaps they should take tons of cpu of pg? (i don't like the nerf word)
Umm no? they let the common man or logi at least attempt to take out a tank.
but once people get the higher tier tanks it wont make much of a difference if someone is lobbing grenades at them because they will be able to out rep or out last the nade thrower.
tiny sticks to scare away big mean tanks... working as intended. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
328
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Posted - 2013.01.30 23:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Landari Zeta wrote:knight of 6 wrote:yes. also your soma isn't "well tanked" if it can't take a militia swarm.
i think the simplest possible solution is to remove the AV starter fit. 99% of problem solved right there. swarms/forges don't get nerfed, god tanks don't make a return, and the tank becomes feared again.
you have a dedicated AV fit, congrats i will fear you. you don't? SOL buddy.
AV nades could be harder to get, there should be sacrifice to combat effectiveness to run something a tank needs to worry about. perhaps they should take tons of cpu of pg? (i don't like the nerf word) I feel like they should remove the AV Starter kit too. If people want to kill tanks, they should just be required to stop on by to the market any buy the stuff themselves instead of having an easy access to free Swarm Launchers. And just in all honesty, remove AV Grenades. Replace them with AT mines or something. A grenade that can go through tank armor? Please.
Wow.
If you are getting killed by AV grenades it's because you are doing CQB with infantry.
Your squad is also not protecting you.
You should lose those fights.
|
Landari Zeta
Exit Wound Heavy Industries
16
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 00:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Telcontar Dunedain wrote:Landari Zeta wrote:knight of 6 wrote:yes. also your soma isn't "well tanked" if it can't take a militia swarm.
i think the simplest possible solution is to remove the AV starter fit. 99% of problem solved right there. swarms/forges don't get nerfed, god tanks don't make a return, and the tank becomes feared again.
you have a dedicated AV fit, congrats i will fear you. you don't? SOL buddy.
AV nades could be harder to get, there should be sacrifice to combat effectiveness to run something a tank needs to worry about. perhaps they should take tons of cpu of pg? (i don't like the nerf word) I feel like they should remove the AV Starter kit too. If people want to kill tanks, they should just be required to stop on by to the market any buy the stuff themselves instead of having an easy access to free Swarm Launchers. And just in all honesty, remove AV Grenades. Replace them with AT mines or something. A grenade that can go through tank armor? Please. Wow. If you are getting killed by AV grenades it's because you are doing CQB with infantry. Your squad is also not protecting you. You should lose those fights.
You are right in that matter, but the way the turret is designed doesn't allow you to aim in CQB with infantry. And if you expect random blues to actually 'help' you aside from trying to steal your tank, you are out of your mind. |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
There is so much wrong with this post.
Game design and balance > everything else. Always.
Yes AV destroys tanks. What do you think it's for?
Having tanks as the only answer to tanks makes the game about who has the biggest tanks. Testing has already established this.
You think we shouldn't tell you to avoid AV 'nades etc. Do you really think that a tank so buff that using it requires no tactics or thought is a good idea? WTF do you think skilled players would do with a resource like that?
Yes people who visit a Supply Depot can switch roles. This game is designed to emphasise player flexibility as a virtue. If you've decided to focus on being a one trick pony then that is your cross to bear.
Landari Zeta wrote:Everything else is OP, why not have the tanks scale up with the rest of everything?
What does this even mean?
Allow me to make this as simple as possible. If you are honestly complaining that no matter how much ISK you spend another player with enough skill and the right gear can still kill you I can only respond one way:
WELCOME TO THE GAME
We have seen enough entitled tank nonsense on these forums in the past to last us a lifetime. Having a strategy stand in transitive relation to all others is bad design. End of story. |
knight of 6
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 00:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Val'herik Dorn wrote:Umm no? they let the common man or logi at least attempt to take out a tank.
but once people get the higher tier tanks it wont make much of a difference if someone is lobbing grenades at them because they will be able to out rep or out last the nade thrower.
tiny sticks to scare away big mean tanks... working as intended.
you're kidding right? "attempt"? op wasn't kidding militia swarms are more than an "attempt" they're down right deadly.
AV nades are still a viable means of taking out the biggest tanks on the field. (it's suicide, but effective)
tiny sticks shouldn't scare big tanks. this dust shouldn't be a "fair" (within reason obviously everything needs a s counter) game you come unprepared you die and if you think it's bad here try EVE. |
Groza Tragediya
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
72
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
The blasters do have a small blast radius. Tanks do have far too many disadvantageous. However it can be offset by good infantry support. They do have too many infantry based counters, all readily available at no cost or sp. its pretty cheap yes, but theres not much we can do, people will ***** and moan and say tanks are fine.
Those are either the people that dont drive tanks regularly or drive a shield tank and let their infantry do the killing since they cant really aim themselves. There may be fixes, there may not be, we just have to wait and see. They made counters everywhere lets just hope they fix it, reduce the shield tank resistance bonus and take away militia av equipment. God knows tanks cant go everywhere infantry can, they have alot of hiding spots.
Then we dumps ALOT of SP into them to be destroyed by three people that havent specd into anything remotely AV. Oh joy the balance. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 00:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
lolOP
clearly hasnt seen my Jugg yet  |
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Azura Sakura
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
Please no OP tanks. Every match I been in, there is either 1-2 tank whores going 22-60 kills and 11-5 deaths. Tanks are already strong and I'm pretty sure Teamwork is OP. Just call for another tank butt buddy and own the whole match. |
Nomed Deeps
The Exemplars
91
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Those that know how to build tanks can make their tanks almost indestructible. I have seen this in game many times. I've even put a precision onto a few that survived the blast. A tank by itself won't do much, even the advanced ones. Like dropsuit fittings, you need the right modules available to equip them and that involves skilling further than just the tank alone. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
970
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
There was a time that a mounted knight in plate armor was invincible, then the crossbow was invented and he died to little sticks of wood.
There has always been a race between arms and armor with one having the advantage, then the other. |
Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
445
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 00:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
TiMeSpLiT--TeR wrote:Are you referring to paper thin militia tanks?
I love how everyone says this,
believe it or not with proper skills, a miltia tank will eat a gunnlogi ect.
I agree with the OP argument. There is far to much access to AV via militia swarms ect. on the fly without any need to skill up into them or worry about isk. Yes, when you see the tank on the field atm it is, "oh wow free points".
in the original build it was, "**** A ******* TANK RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Now they just suck.
I decided last night to download planetside 2 since everyone seems to compare the two games, let me tell you there is no comparison.
Dust handles much better, its control system, layout ect is much better. The thing I liked about PS2, was how the tanks wouldn't just go poop without having some kind of heavy fire being applied to it, at current, swarms I believe are the biggest downfall for vehicles vs AV.
I know alot of ppl will get all huffy puffy about this, but that's just because most of "those" people hate the thought of actually having to skill into AV.
I'd rather see the swarms in current, be manual fire, with severe reduced splash damage making it impossible to hurt infantry OR simply remove the swarms from game and replace it with another type of AV weapon.
Now swarms themselves wouldn't be to bad if people couldn't lock you over halfway across the map, hide behind a rock, fire the rockets and while you pull back to take cover behind a building, the swarms simply follow you around the corner. It's something that seriously needs fixed.
As far as AV grenades go, they're fine where they are. I think they're pretty cool and function well.
Forge guns are great, Distance on them should be the same though as the current railgun installations(they maybe are, I'm not certain)
As I side note, I'd like to see the tank missile turrets be rebuffed as in, the original launch system put back into place with slightly more splash, atm they are useless and it truly takes from the caldari tanks, since missiles are lighter for them to fit via PG and they would be able to fit a better tank like they should, where as the Gallente tanks already get a PG buff because their specific guns take more PG. |
Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation
172
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:37:00 -
[25] - Quote
I heard something about removing AV equipment for starters...Wtf? No. Just stahp. STAHP.
Seriously. AV stuff is there to give some kinda defense against tanks and dropships if they come along. You know how messed up the game would be if there was no starter AV stuff? Lots. |
Gunner Nightingale
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
217
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Necrodermis wrote:thanks feel like big heavies.
and that really is all there is to them. just a different class of weapon takes to destroy them and there is definitely no shortage in that.
i do like being immune to snipers, even though they still constantly shoot at my tank anyway.
hard part is keeping them under 200k so i still make isk a match because i know i will lose the tank.
Perhaps thats why you lose a tank each time you call it. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 00:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Roy Ventus wrote:I heard something about removing AV equipment for starters...Wtf? No. Just stahp. STAHP.
Seriously. AV stuff is there to give some kinda defense against tanks and dropships if they come along. You know how messed up the game would be if there was no starter AV stuff? Lots.
i think it was already beaten out of the game when tanks would roam around and the game turned into twisted metal: tanks. |
Gunner Nightingale
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
217
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
Roy Ventus wrote:I heard something about removing AV equipment for starters...Wtf? No. Just stahp. STAHP.
Seriously. AV stuff is there to give some kinda defense against tanks and dropships if they come along. You know how messed up the game would be if there was no starter AV stuff? Lots.
Yea seriously i have a sica and a soma, know how many times ive died to a solo FG or solo AV nader, 1-2 times in the beginning before i knew how to drive tanks. Now almost never. Do i lose militia tanks yea but it requires a combined effort of no less than 3-4 people using FG, and swarm, (why no AV cause i dont get that close and if i do my small turret operators clean them up and if they take cover they hop out and clean them up and get back in).
Keep in mind this is my miltia tank which i call in on a whim all the time and the only times i get in trouble is when a player on the other team actually has good FG like a breach or assault, (I never seen anyone spec into SL's and thats a shame causes maruaders/proto tanks will run buck wild pretty unchecked soon) But militia tanks crush milita infantry with impunity unless they coordinate their attack.
The sad reality is the only time they actually coordinate their attack is when it is an ambush/skirmish with dedicated spawns because once redlined everyones mission in life is to blow up the tank, if players did that more often during normal gameplay tanks would be less dominant im okay with that becasue it STILL REQUIRES TEAMWORK.
Tanks dont need a buff, you just need to spec into a GOOD GUNLOGI/MADRUGER. By good i mean oh look i unlocked it now lets put basic/miltia gear on it module slots and put on subpar turrets no no and hell no. |
Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
445
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Posted - 2013.01.31 00:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
Roy Ventus wrote:I heard something about removing AV equipment for starters...Wtf? No. Just stahp. STAHP.
Seriously. AV stuff is there to give some kinda defense against tanks and dropships if they come along. You know how messed up the game would be if there was no starter AV stuff? Lots.
You seriously have issue applying like 6k sp into swarms? some people, depending on what you chose, already have swarm skills to start with!
So let me get this straight, you think that a tank driver should spend millions of SP into their shield, armor, engineer, circuitry, weapons ect, but its not right that you have to put 6k sp into 1 swarm fit, and spend like 3k isk on so said swarm suit.
whilst the tank your whole team just switched to militia standard stock AV to pwn him, is sitting at a million isk tank with millions of SP backing it(we're not there yet with sp but will be). But its cool, kill it from the other side of the map, its not like their missiles and railguns got a big splash nerf, only 1 type of weapon for tanks are even worth it now, blasters. But sure AV dudes, lets give you a variety of very effective weapons, with lil' risk or isk investment.
Because this game isn't about iskvsrisk or anything haha :D
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 01:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
I've taken a Sica on a rampage and killed a Gunnlogi and several non-Militia LAVs without getting murdered by Swarms.
I've brought the same Sica into another match where I got slaughtered by a Forge Gun pretty quickly because HE CAUGHT ME OUT OF POSITION.
Not "because Forge Guns are OP" or "because AV needs nerfing" or "because tanks need a buff" - I SCREWED UP AND GOT KILLED.
Working.
As.
Intended.
Suck at tanks? Try a different role. |
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