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Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
369
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 09:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
This thread has nothing to do with the HMG or Forge Gun being overpowered or not. It has nothing to do with the extreme price tag on the vk.1 heavy dropsuit (although that has to be lowered anyway). This thread is only a request to make changes to the prototype (and advanced) heavy dropsuit itself.
The prototype heavy dropsuit needs a buff. You might disagree with me, but I'll try to tell you why. Currently I believe there's a great balance between a standard heavy and an equally skilled and fitted standard assault/logi/scout. However, a proto heavy is heavily underpowered compared to an equally skilled proto assault/logi/scout.
The reason for this is easy to find, it lays with the number of slots and PG/CPU the proto heavy gets over the standard heavy, compared to a proto over a standard of any of the other three classes. Lets list the numbers:
A proto scout has 2 more high slots, 1 more low slot, 1 more equipment slot and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard scout. A proto assault has 1 more high slot, 2 more low slots, 1 more equipment slot and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard assault. A proto logi has 2 more high slots, 2 more low slots,1 more equipment slot and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard logi.
Or in other words, all three get 4 or 5 more slots in total and exactly the double amount of PG/CPU than the standard suit.
A proto heavy has 1 more high slot, 1 more low slot, 0 more equipment slots and exactly 50% more PG/CPU over the standard heavy.
So the proto heavy only gets 2 more slots, and nowhere near the double amount of PG/CPU than the standard suit.
Do you see now how that's not even close to balanced?
To me it's obivous that the proto heavy should get 2 more high slots, 2 more low slots, still 0 more equipment slots and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard suit.
For the shield variant heavy at least. I can see the idea for the armor variant to have more low slots and less high slots. |
WHz DS9899
Doomheim
136
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Posted - 2012.12.21 09:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's got that insane armor/sheilds |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 09:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:This thread has nothing to do with the HMG or Forge Gun being overpowered or not. It has nothing to do with the extreme price tag on the vk.1 heavy dropsuit (although that has to be lowered anyway). This thread is only a request to make changes to the prototype (and advanced) heavy dropsuit itself.
The prototype heavy dropsuit needs a buff. You might disagree with me, but I'll try to tell you why. Currently I believe there's a great balance between a standard heavy and an equally skilled and fitted standard assault/logi/scout. However, a proto heavy is heavily underpowered compared to an equally skilled proto assault/logi/scout.
The reason for this is easy to find, it lays with the number of slots and PG/CPU the proto heavy gets over the standard heavy, compared to a proto over a standard of any of the other three classes. Lets list the numbers:
A proto scout has 2 more high slots, 1 more low slot, 1 more equipment slot and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard scout. A proto assault has 1 more high slot, 2 more low slots, 1 more equipment slot and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard assault. A proto logi has 2 more high slots, 2 more low slots,1 more equipment slot and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard logi.
Or in other words, all three get 4 or 5 more slots in total and exactly the double amount of PG/CPU than the standard suit.
A proto heavy has 1 more high slot, 1 more low slot, 0 more equipment slots and exactly 50% more PG/CPU over the standard heavy.
So the proto heavy only gets 2 more slots, and nowhere near the double amount of PG/CPU than the standard suit.
Do you see now how that's not even close to balanced?
To me it's obivous that the proto heavy should get 2 more high slots, 2 more low slots, still 0 more equipment slots and exactly 100% more PG/CPU over the standard suit.
For the shield variant heavy at least. I can see the idea for the armor variant to have more low slots and less high slots.
i think it's that way because the biggest evolution in heavy suits was supposed to be the growth of base HP. Thus, not raising the amount of slot so much. And it probably hasnt been looked into since then.
Maybe heavies should be the only suits to keep growing in HP every tier. But this only if they get their REAL lower turn and movement speed. As atm, it's not obvious.
Now, i fear that a heavy with too many slots and PG\CPU could reach an insane survivability. But honestly, i dont know enough about heavies fitting to tell. Would need some proper study.
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Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
369
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 09:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:i think it's that way because the biggest evolution in heavy suits was supposed to be the growth of base HP. Thus, not raising the amount of slot so much. And it probably hasnt been looked into since then.
Maybe heavies should be the only suits to keep growing in HP every tier. But this only if they get their REAL lower turn and movement speed. As atm, it's not obvious.
Now, i fear that a heavy with too many slots and PG\CPU could reach an insane survivability. But honestly, i dont know enough about heavies fitting to tell. Would need some proper study.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, more base health is an option worth considering. I could have included that in the OP as well, but I chose not to because personally I think more slots is the better option.
With simply more base health you aren't paying anything to get that extra HP, and you limit the heavy to only be a tank fit. I think there should be room for more crazy fits than just that, and more slots instead of more base health would give just that. If or when the vk.1 gets a price drop (I'm thinking it should cost somewhere around 130k maybe), as it should, you still have to pay a lot to get that extra stuff on your fit. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 09:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree with Cazaderon. Heavies are the only suit class that should grow in HP and not slots. That's their main advantage in battle.
Scouts - Fast and agile. Assault - Rounded balanced suits for all roles basically but not as good at each role as a specialised suit. Logi - Equipment carrier and support suit. Heavy - Battlefield wall that can take punishment.
The first 3 can grow their roles with slots. The heavy must grow in HP instead. As I see it, that's the best way to balance the heavies.
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 09:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:i think it's that way because the biggest evolution in heavy suits was supposed to be the growth of base HP. Thus, not raising the amount of slot so much. And it probably hasnt been looked into since then.
Maybe heavies should be the only suits to keep growing in HP every tier. But this only if they get their REAL lower turn and movement speed. As atm, it's not obvious.
Now, i fear that a heavy with too many slots and PG\CPU could reach an insane survivability. But honestly, i dont know enough about heavies fitting to tell. Would need some proper study.
Thanks for the reply. Yes, more base health is an option worth considering. I could have included that in the OP as well, but I chose not to because personally I think more slots is the better option. With simply more base health you aren't paying anything to get that extra HP, and you limit the heavy to only be a tank fit. I think there should be room for more crazy fits than just that, and more slots instead of more base health would give just that. If or when the vk.1 gets a price drop (I'm thinking it should cost somewhere around 130k maybe), as it should, you still have to pay a lot to get that extra stuff on your fit.
Isnt the purpose of the heavy to be an infantry tank ? And with even a slight base HP increase, with all the the skill modifier you'd probably get more advantage than with more slots. But, it would avoid having heavies with 3 max repairer or shield recharger making them pretty ridiculous. Also, more HP means more logibro love.
In fact, the base hp increase removal was nice because the original base HP gap was too large. I'd agree with the return of base HP raise between each tier if it was only slightly noticeable and not massive.
Even a 25 or so more base hp can help give some more value and interest in using a higher suit outside of pg\cpu. But i'm going off topic there. |
ArMaGeDoN The Cat
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
157
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 14:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:I agree with Cazaderon. Heavies are the only suit class that should grow in HP and not slots. That's their main advantage in battle.
Scouts - Fast and agile. Assault - Rounded balanced suits for all roles basically but not as good at each role as a specialised suit. Logi - Equipment carrier and support suit. Heavy - Battlefield wall that can take punishment.
The first 3 can grow their roles with slots. The heavy must grow in HP instead. As I see it, that's the best way to balance the heavies.
Well, lets take it further. Scout should have a dramatic increase in speed and a decrease in scan profile Assault should have a small increase all around, HP, Speed and other small tiny things. Logi - I really don't know, maybe the same as Assault Heavy - Massive HP boost |
Chunky Munkey
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
285
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 15:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote:Grit Breather wrote:I agree with Cazaderon. Heavies are the only suit class that should grow in HP and not slots. That's their main advantage in battle.
Scouts - Fast and agile. Assault - Rounded balanced suits for all roles basically but not as good at each role as a specialised suit. Logi - Equipment carrier and support suit. Heavy - Battlefield wall that can take punishment.
The first 3 can grow their roles with slots. The heavy must grow in HP instead. As I see it, that's the best way to balance the heavies.
Well, lets take it further. Scout should have a dramatic increase in speed and a decrease in scan profile Assault should have a small increase all around, HP, Speed and other small tiny things. Logi - I really don't know, maybe the same as Assault Heavy - Massive HP boost
I think the proto Logi is the only suit to improve accordingly. Its slots and capacy increase, and that is precisely what it specialises in. It's only sensible that the scout suits improve in mobility & scan profile, & heavies in hp.
Just giving every proto suit extra slots makes them too customisable. You could effectively turn one type into another.
Lastly: the price of proto heavy suits would still be unjustifiable, even with the improvements we've suggested. |
KryptixX
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
321
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 16:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
i very much agree.
However 2 more slots on both sides might be over kill.
IMO, have 3low/high and then depending on whether you are running armor or shield tank you get a fourth according high/low slot |
Martin0 Brancaleone
Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS.
191
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 18:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
WHz DS9899 wrote:It's got that insane armor/sheilds
Proto heavy have the same armor and shield as the standard.
+1 for moar slots! |
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Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 21:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
Other suits get +1 equipment, +1 high, and +1 low when going from adv to proto.
Heavy has a few options for buff A) +1 high, +1 low, and side arm becomes light B)+1 high, +1 low, and more hp C)+2 high and +1 low D)+1 high and +2 low E) as it is now with price drop to be the cheapest proto, I don't like this one but it could work.
I think a or b would be best.
The vk.1 price needs fixed too, it probably was just missed when proto suit prices were lowered.
I don't know if the cpu/pg needs fixed since I don't have skills to unlock proto heavy, with more slots it will probably need the cpu/pg to go with it. Options c and d in particular would use more cpu/pg. |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
648
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 22:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:I agree with Cazaderon. Heavies are the only suit class that should grow in HP and not slots. That's their main advantage in battle.
Scouts - Fast and agile. Assault - Rounded balanced suits for all roles basically but not as good at each role as a specialised suit. Logi - Equipment carrier and support suit. Heavy - Battlefield wall that can take punishment.
The first 3 can grow their roles with slots. The heavy must grow in HP instead. As I see it, that's the best way to balance the heavies.
I have been saying this all along. |
G Torq
ALTA B2O
88
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 18:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Martin0 Brancaleone wrote:WHz DS9899 wrote:It's got that insane armor/sheilds Proto heavy have the same armor and shield as the standard. +1 for moar slots!
Go beserk - upgrade the [S] sidearm slot to a [L] light-weapon slot on proto-heavies
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Sytonis Auran
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
52
|
Posted - 2012.12.30 23:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bendtner92 nice analysis. I don't agree with adding 2 slots though.
One thing about heavy suits and does not need to be considered on other suits is their ability to use forges. Any change in heavy's slots can dramatically alter how much forge damage they can output, which is already high.
For this reason I would prefer the bonus EHP suggestion to help with balance between meta levels, but only on heavies and not other suits. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
369
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 00:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sytonis Auran wrote:Bendtner92 nice analysis. I don't agree with adding 2 slots though.
One thing about heavy suits and does not need to be considered on other suits is their ability to use forges. Any change in heavy's slots can dramatically alter how much forge damage they can output, which is already high.
For this reason I would prefer the bonus EHP suggestion to help with balance between meta levels, but only on heavies and not other suits. A proto heavy with one more high slot wouldn't change the possible damage output on a forge gun much though. A fourth damage mod barely gives any extra damage. However, if the advanced suit also got an extra high slot than it currently has, it could change some things, as you could get three damage mods on it then.
I can settle with more health on advanced and proto suits though, if that's the road the devs want to go. Personally I like more slots better, but that's just my personal opinion. I'm fine with extra health. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 00:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sytonis Auran wrote:Bendtner92 nice analysis. I don't agree with adding 2 slots though.
One thing about heavy suits and does not need to be considered on other suits is their ability to use forges. Any change in heavy's slots can dramatically alter how much forge damage they can output, which is already high.
For this reason I would prefer the bonus EHP suggestion to help with balance between meta levels, but only on heavies and not other suits.
More low slots = more plates and reps for maximum tankness if youre averse to highslot adds. make the protos really hard to pop by adding the slots as lows. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 02:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm all for lowering the price, and revising the suit structure in general. The blasted thing just isn't worth skilling into because of all that effort for little to no gain. |
Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
401
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 03:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Sytonis Auran wrote:Bendtner92 nice analysis. I don't agree with adding 2 slots though.
One thing about heavy suits and does not need to be considered on other suits is their ability to use forges. Any change in heavy's slots can dramatically alter how much forge damage they can output, which is already high.
For this reason I would prefer the bonus EHP suggestion to help with balance between meta levels, but only on heavies and not other suits. More low slots = more plates and reps for maximum tankness if youre averse to highslot adds. make the protos really hard to pop by adding the slots as lows.
Agreed but heavy suits need heavy only armor plates that add more HP. 60 or so hp is ok on a scout or assault or logi but lolsterskates on a 800 hp heavy since each plate adds ten percent penalty to movement speed on a sloooow heavy. The armour plates are pointless on a slow moving heavy. A ten percent penalty on movement speed then lets make it a worthwhile armor plate for a heavy ONLY thatr adds 200 hp or about four or five ar bullets.
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Tech Ohm Eaven
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
401
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 03:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:I'm all for lowering the price, and revising the suit structure in general. The blasted thing just isn't worth skilling into because of all that effort for little to no gain.
Agreed. I am running basic heavy and shakeing my head at my invested SP in the heavy suits.
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Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
392
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 06:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: Agreed but heavy suits need heavy only armor plates that add more HP. 60 or so hp is ok on a scout or assault or logi but lolsterskates on a 800 hp heavy since each plate adds ten percent penalty to movement speed on a sloooow heavy. The armour plates are pointless on a slow moving heavy. A ten percent penalty on movement speed then lets make it a worthwhile armor plate for a heavy ONLY thatr adds 200 hp or about four or five ar bullets.
I'd love to have some mods that are restricted to certain suits.
the heavy could have specialized armor plating (decreased headshot damage or just a general increase in resistance to damage), Logis would have equipment boosters (10% bonus to repair rate, etc), scouts could have some sort of stealth mod and assault could have special shield mod.
I also agree with some other posters about the heavy needing more low slots, at least one more at proto level.
Though preferably I'd like to see a armor tanking mod that fits into a high slot. being able to have plates, a repair mod and a resistance mod going at the same time would be awesome |
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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 08:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tech Ohm Eaven wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:I'm all for lowering the price, and revising the suit structure in general. The blasted thing just isn't worth skilling into because of all that effort for little to no gain. Agreed. I am running basic heavy and shakeing my head at my invested SP in the heavy suits.
I feel your pain, I got Amarr Heavy Dropsuits V because of how good protohoovs was when HP wasn't levelled. Zero is a sad space-panda. And broke, but that is besides the point.
More on the point, remembering how our HP was at that point I could easily get to 2k armor with negligable shielding. Repairing it was an exercise in patience, but now that Logi works that ought to be better. If not increasing the HP perse, give all Heavy Suits a built in Resistance rating instead of an equipment slot.
WARNING, pulling all these numbers out of my cloning vat here, just using tens for an easy comparison. Example, Advanced Hoovs has a 10% standard armor resistance, making a 600 Armor HP a 660 Effective Armor HP. Add a armor resist plate for another 10%, and it won't stack with the inherent value, but it will only be 10% from the current value. In English, it'd be a nine percent resistance boost (10 percent of the 90 remaining is 9, giving 19 total), giving you a new EAHP of 714. Further plates would be subject to stacking penalties, so you can't get to ungodly levels of resistance, but an extra few resist points or HP would be a good counter to the heavy suit lacking Equipment slots.
EDIT: on an unrelated point, Talos deserves a cookie for reminding me of something I championed long ago in the field known as 'Shield tanks can go kitten themselves' as a High power slot armor mod would do wonders, both on vehicles and infantry. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
369
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 08:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
So, are there any changes to the advanced and proto heavy suits planned for next build? |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 08:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: Agreed but heavy suits need heavy only armor plates that add more HP. 60 or so hp is ok on a scout or assault or logi but lolsterskates on a 800 hp heavy since each plate adds ten percent penalty to movement speed on a sloooow heavy. The armour plates are pointless on a slow moving heavy. A ten percent penalty on movement speed then lets make it a worthwhile armor plate for a heavy ONLY thatr adds 200 hp or about four or five ar bullets.
I'd love to have some mods that are restricted to certain suits. the heavy could have specialized armor plating (decreased headshot damage or just a general increase in resistance to damage), Logis would have equipment boosters (10% bonus to repair rate, etc), scouts could have some sort of stealth mod and assault could have special shield mod. I also agree with some other posters about the heavy needing more low slots, at least one more at proto level. Though preferably I'd like to see a armor tanking mod that fits into a high slot. being able to have plates, a repair mod and a resistance mod going at the same time would be awesome
That's actually a pretty cool idea. |
Kovak Therim
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
158
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 09:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP has been talking about adding more specialized suits pretty soon. We might see some special heavy suits along with the other ones. In the skills for dropsuits, level 5 is required for "specialized" suits. I hope they are worth it and not ballooned in price like the proto heavy shield variant. I actually laughed when I saw that in the market then compared it to the other proto suits. |
Aeon Amadi
Maverick Conflict Solutions
1003
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 06:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kovak Therim wrote:CCP has been talking about adding more specialized suits pretty soon. We might see some special heavy suits along with the other ones. In the skills for dropsuits, level 5 is required for "specialized" suits. I hope they are worth it and not ballooned in price like the proto heavy shield variant. I actually laughed when I saw that in the market then compared it to the other proto suits.
Well, there's two variants in the Eve Online database.
Atlas and something else. Can't remember what.
From their description, one sacrifices speed for even more defenses and the other gets rid of it's heavy weapon use for more versatility.
I'm personally game for either =) |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
244
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 01:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Definitely needs at least 1 more low slot and extra CPU/PG. |
Ric Barlom
On The Brink
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 11:39:00 -
[27] - Quote
Great post Ben!
First of all you have to stop killing me all the time haha:) Seriously speaking I was gonna post something similar before I saw this thread. The situation you described is total BS and everyone can see there is something wrong with the system just by looking at it. In my mind the simples solution is to find a good balance for all the different standard suits and have them get the same amount of slots and CP/PG with levels. It's not rocket science CCP! Not trying to be a **** or anything and I know balancing online games can be hard BUT this issue is so obvious and it really frustrates me. Please fix this:)
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Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
369
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 11:53:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ric Barlom wrote:Great post Ben!
First of all you have to stop killing me all the time haha:) Seriously speaking I was gonna post something similar before I saw this thread. The situation you described is total BS and everyone can see there is something wrong with the system just by looking at it. In my mind the simples solution is to find a good balance for all the different standard suits and have them get the same amount of slots and CP/PG with levels. It's not rocket science CCP! Not trying to be a **** or anything and I know balancing online games can be hard BUT this issue is so obvious and it really frustrates me. Please fix this:)
Thanks man, and you've killed me plenty of times as well. I'm always enjoying going up against you guys, always makes for some good matches.
I agree with you. A good balance between the Standard suits and then go from there is the way to go. In my opinion we have a very good balance between the Standard suits right now (except for maybe Scouts. I don't use them, but they could maybe use a slight speed buff or something else. On the other hand, they might be better balanced when we get cloaking among other things implemented)
The progression to Advanced and Proto suits is fairly balanced between Logis/Assaults/Scouts (except that I don't think the Proto Assault should have two equipment slots, but that's another matter). The progression on the Heavy is just lacking severely though (the numbers speak for themselves).
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Hecarim Van Hohen
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 17:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nice post Ben. I agree that the heavy suits get less better when compared to other suits and it should not be like that. I'd like to see this balanced somewhere in the near future. More EHP or slots should solve this 'problem' CCP! |
martinofski
Rebelles A Quebec
18
|
Posted - 2013.02.28 18:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
I totally agree. I would live with something like 1 more slot on one of the side and an item slot too I guess.
2 slot on each side is a bit too much.
I vote for a base HP increase and 1-2 more slots. This and an intelligent price on the VK.1. Maybe an item slot too, can't figure out why I cant have a nanite/uplink in my big pockets. |
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