Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 16:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
This really comes back to the strafing argument. Right now, strafing in scout suits is what separates the skilled from the unskilled. Since it makes it hard to aim at someone.
I disagree with this. I CAN, and do beat them, but it's not very fun to do so because what this does is put overemphasis on individual player precision and dexterity.
When really, this game would be at its best if it instead rewarded the smartest players who work with their teammates.
I am probably going to get flamed to hell for this but if there's a tactic in the game that promotes single player heroism that, if they're skilled enough, they can take out whole squads full of players then it probably isn't a very good tactic.
Basically what I am saying is that if there was a firefight between six extremely skilled lone wolves and six players who are beginners but they know each other and the game mechanics well enough to utilize effective teamwork and tactics, then the latter team should win. Not saying skill shouldn't apply AT ALL, just saying it shouldn't be the end all be all like it is in Quake.
Working among other players as a well oiled machine is one of the many things that makes EVE Online what it is and I feel as though this should be carried over to Dust 514. But as it stands, with mechanics like the lateral movement of scout suits, it seems to reward lone wolf play more often than not.
Flame on! |
Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree that the emphasis should be on team play and strategy instead of individual skill. Sure skill should matter a lot but like OP said this is not Quake.
However I don't really see what the problem is with scouts strafing and jumping around like bunnies, it's not like they are equipped with OHK rocket launchers or railguns. Most scouts I have faced seem rather quishy and they tend to go down rather fast after their shields have been depleted. Sure they might manage to run behind cover to regenerate their shields, but it's not like you are not permitted to use shield boosting modules or even armor repair modules to counter this.
The way you give away your position by firing shots or sprinting(?) makes soloing rather risky business, many players don't seem to understand this. This makes it rather fun to see players sprinting to objective only to find 3 players with their barrels pointing at them.
|
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nope. lone wolves would win hands down.. |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 17:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that.
People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play.
go back to cod.
|
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :)
Yes, yes it does but it needs to be limited and balanced not just shell an area with huge damage so no one can get near it |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod.
i may require clarification on what exactly you mean by this there appear to words missing from sentences |
Lephis Phoenix
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum? |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod.
CoD, at least the modern CoD, has neither benefit from teamwork or skill. It's just a dumb, random and chaotic game made to sell copies rather than deliver good gameplay.
Dust 514 is supposed to be the FPS expansion to EVE Online. A notoriously difficult MMORPG that not only encourages people to work together, it requires it. Last time I checked, you cannot actually own anything larger than a battleship without the assistance of other players. And you work together for a myriad of other reasons.
Dust 514 should follow in step. Probably not to the same degree of brutality that EVE Online has, but it should reward teamwork above all else.
Lephis Phoenix wrote:Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum?
Several reasons. Most of which revolving just how out of place it is.
There's a good reason why most console FPS games don't rely on precision and skill. The limitations of the gamepad often makes it so that you're fighting the controls just as much as the enemy player just to kill them. This is especially evident in scouts.
While you could argue that this makes it more skill based (And therefore better for it), it's not very fun. Oh I am certain it is fun for the person abusing it, but fighting against it isn't very fun. Even if you win. |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bones1182 wrote:Zekain Kade wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. i may require clarification on what exactly you mean by this there appear to words missing from sentences
**** I hate my key board, all the letter are wearing out.
never mind that post, it was just me calling you a noob.
here's a small scenario for you. Who would win?
My friends and I who play halo occasionally. We aren't in a clan. But we have a tremendous amount of individual skill VS A group of KSI kids who are in a clan that has 20k members. They have routine game nights, and in clan tournaments. And apparently have a lot of team skill.
Who would win that 4v4 match?
keep in mind that halo is supposed to be a team based game. |
|
Max Trichomes
Quantum Kittens Syndicate
68
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod.
Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused. |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Max Trichomes wrote:Zekain Kade wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused. COD is a terrible game in every aspect of a game. |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Max Trichomes wrote:
Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused.
No, that'd be quake.
CoD is a game that doesn't reward anything other than blind luck. |
Ray seveN
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
71
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) Works when I use mass drivers. People stay away from the general vacinity I'm shooting at. it makes defending easier since you cant funnel people in as they come |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 18:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ray seveN wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) Works when I use mass drivers. People stay away from the general vacinity I'm shooting at. it makes defending easier since you cant funnel people in as they come
No, I was just making a gag about how his original post clearly belonged in another thread. |
Aiden Angel
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 19:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:Bones1182 wrote:Zekain Kade wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. i may require clarification on what exactly you mean by this there appear to words missing from sentences **** I hate my key board, all the letter are wearing out. never mind that post, it was just me calling you a noob. here's a small scenario for you. Who would win? My friends and I who play halo occasionally. We aren't in a clan. But we have a tremendous amount of individual skill VS A group of KSI kids who are in a clan that has 20k members. They have routine game nights, and in clan tournaments. And apparently have a lot of team skill. Who would win that 4v4 match? keep in mind that halo is supposed to be a team based game.
That's a different scenario than what the OP mentioned. I would assume that if you're playing with 3 of your very skilled friends, that you'd usually be using mics and perhaps play together often. Just because you're not in a clan who has routine gaming nights doesn't mean anything. You'd still be teamed up with 3 of your friends.
The OP was talking about 6 skilled lone wolves vs 6 players who aren't as skilled yet they play together often and use mics and use team work. The 6 skilled players would not be communicating and would just be running around on their own. Teamwork can trump individual skill any time.
I've seen groups of averagely skilled players who use team work, beat groups of lone wolves plenty of times. This most definitely can happen in Halo. Halo is supposed to be a team based game but i've won games 1 on 4 or 2 on 5, etc. I've also had games where i've played against a full party of lesser skilled players, but nobody on my team was partied up or using my mics and we've lost.
I've also played with very skilled people on my team, yet we would lose because nobody would be using team work and they'd be more concerned with boosting their KDR then actually capturing the flag. In other cases people get full of themselves and underestimate the other team and these skilled players run around on their own and again, they lose.
I don't always use a mic and i'm not always partied up with friends. However, I do love team work and coordinating/communicating together to win. I personally love being a medic type class when available. I like to heal people, supply ammo, revive players and just help keep my teammates alive. I'd sacrifice myself for the objective carrier or while defending the person hacking/capturing/arming the objective. I also change up my role depending on the situation, etc..
I hope there are plenty of options in Dust that will promote team work and reward those who do team oriented actions.
If you want to be a lone wolf go play a different game. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 20:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
[/quote]That's a different scenario than what the OP mentioned. I would assume that if you're playing with 3 of your very skilled friends, that you'd usually be using mics and perhaps play together often. Just because you're not in a clan who has routine gaming nights doesn't mean anything. You'd still be teamed up with 3 of your friends.
The OP was talking about 6 skilled lone wolves vs 6 players who aren't as skilled yet they play together often and use mics and use team work. The 6 skilled players would not be communicating and would just be running around on their own. Teamwork can trump individual skill any time.
I've seen groups of averagely skilled players who use team work, beat groups of lone wolves plenty of times. This most definitely can happen in Halo. Halo is supposed to be a team based game but i've won games 1 on 4 or 2 on 5, etc. I've also had games where i've played against a full party of lesser skilled players, but nobody on my team was partied up or using my mics and we've lost.
I've also played with very skilled people on my team, yet we would lose because nobody would be using team work and they'd be more concerned with boosting their KDR then actually capturing the flag. In other cases people get full of themselves and underestimate the other team and these skilled players run around on their own and again, they lose.
I don't always use a mic and i'm not always partied up with friends. However, I do love team work and coordinating/communicating together to win. I personally love being a medic type class when available. I like to heal people, supply ammo, revive players and just help keep my teammates alive. I'd sacrifice myself for the objective carrier or while defending the person hacking/capturing/arming the objective. I also change up my role depending on the situation, etc..
I hope there are plenty of options in Dust that will promote team work and reward those who do team oriented actions.
If you want to be a lone wolf go play a different game.[/quote]
100% agree |
Kyy Seiska
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 20:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote: here's a small scenario for you. Who would win?
My friends and I who play halo occasionally. We aren't in a clan. But we have a tremendous amount of individual skill VS A group of KSI kids who are in a clan that has 20k members. They have routine game nights, and in clan tournaments. And apparently have a lot of team skill.
Who would win that 4v4 match?
keep in mind that halo is supposed to be a team based game.
Personally I think halo is a pretty poor example for a team based game. Fast phased shooters like Halo, Quake Arena, Unreal Tournament rely heavily on individual skill of the players. Tactical shooters like Socom, Arma, Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon usually give a far better understanding what team play actually is or can be.
Dust 514 falls more in to the category of hybrid tactical shooters, similarly to (*gasp*) COD: MW, Killzone or Battlefield.
4-players is more like a squad so 4vs4 is pretty small scale battle for team work to actually provide any noticeable benefit. Where as in 8vs8 battle the 8 players could easily be divide to 2 basic squads, one for defending and one for attacking which is just one form of basic strategy in e.g CTF.
But to answer your question, your team would win mainly because you and your friends know the game well enough to play as a team even without trying. Not forgetting how you could just use sniper rifle to quickscope OHK their whole team for those juicy multikills and killing sprees while bunnyhopping and collecting powerups untill the match ends. |
Card Drunook
DoC Deck of Contractors
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
In reply to the original post, I agree that this team should encourage the use of teamwork. But you've focused on a tactic that is strongly geared towards one on one fights. I play a scout and I usually can kill people in a one on one fight through dodging, but against more than one person I'm dead. So far I haven't seen anything in this game that allows true lone wolf success when put against a group of players.
What I'm saying is that what seems like an unfair advantage right now (such as strafing, or using dropships as artillery) might not be a big deal once we can play as groups. Just something you should think about.
All that said, I do agree that this game should be balanced to allow a diverse coordinated team to have an advantage over a team full of rambos. |
Max Trichomes
Quantum Kittens Syndicate
68
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zekain Kade wrote:Max Trichomes wrote:Zekain Kade wrote:Lilianna Sentinel wrote:I'm assuming artillery makes the game more tactical then. :) I went to copy and paste post i was making because the forum froze up on my for the 500th time, but didn't copy it properly. So I ended up accidentally posting that. People who have team skill to trump individual skill are just bad kids who struggle to play a game that actually takes skill to play. go back to cod. Wha wha what? CoD is the most solo, lone wolf FPS ever made like ever. Me so confused. COD is a terrible game in every aspect of a game.
I wouldn't argue with you there, so why do you want Dust to be more like CoD? By making lone-wolfing more appealing, you make Dust more like CoD. CoD is nothing but lone-wolfing. There is no teamwork needed to win CoD. So in one breath you are saying "Let's make lone-wolfing more attactive just like Call of Duty!" and then in your next breath you say "CoD sucks." Well make up your mind friend. |
|
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Problem here is that nobody works as an effective team.
In that situation, individual skill is the only consideration.
And when a team-based game allows healing/repairing/reviving teammates and their vehicles, that aspect makes a MAJOR difference, and even the few times I've seen teamwork happening, there hasn't been any direct support of that kind. From what I've seen, it hasn't been a well-used gameplay element yet, and I think we'll see a HUGE change when people start using those tactics against their opponents. |
Majin Sora
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
yes and instead of focusing players standings on the team roster purely on K/D ratio they should also add a point system. this would mean that instead of being rated on how many kills and deaths you have (like in COD) you would get graded on how well you played tactically and as a team (i.e. destroying dropships, tanks, cloning stations or hacking , saving other team mates, and resuplying.) or am i getting the wrong picture and this game is based purely on kills ? o.o |
Sha Kharn Clone
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1087
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lephis Phoenix wrote:Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum?
Because it used to make a fun game 4 the skilled players out there. |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sha Kharn Clone wrote:Lephis Phoenix wrote:Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum? Because it used to make a fun game 4 the skilled players out there.
Just the opposite, it made the game not so fun anymore.
And bear in mind, this isn't a "It isn't fun anymore because I am losing" deal, it's not fun because fighting the clumsy gamepad controls to kill some guy isn't fun. And even though I kill scouts who do this way more often than not, it's not a feeling of "Yes! I beat him!"
It's more like "God that was ****in' annoying. Glad that's over with..." |
SILENTSAM 69
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
421
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
I agree and disagree at the same time.
Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way.
The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team.
The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit. |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:I agree and disagree at the same time.
Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way.
The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team.
The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit.
The problem is that the scout suit's mobility isn't being used to get a tactical advantage quicker, it's being used to dodge attacks and exploit the weaknesses of the gamepad. |
Card Drunook
DoC Deck of Contractors
79
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 21:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:I agree and disagree at the same time.
Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way.
The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team.
The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit. The problem is that the scout suit's mobility isn't being used to get a tactical advantage quicker, it's being used to dodge attacks and exploit the weaknesses of the gamepad.
Without the ability to dodge, a scout suit would be at a disadvantage to everything else. We already have a lot less health than everyone else and we don't seem to scale up as well in regards to fitting. And in regards to strafing, try shooting at a scout that is dodging against someone else. It's a tactic that is only really effective at close range against targets you are aware of, against someone who's far away it's not very effective.
That said, I do use the scout suit to get both tactical and strategic advantage as often as I can. Which is what it's supposed to be used for. If I'm fighting you head on it's either because I'm throwing myself away to stop/slow you or I just messed up. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 22:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lilianna Sentinel wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:I agree and disagree at the same time.
Yes the game should be about team work and rewarding team work. The thing is I feel it is already this way.
The Scout has a particular role and sometimes that requires the Scout to leave the group. This does not mean he is not part of the team.
The different suits seem pretty balanced when they are fit right. Any suit is bad with a bad fit. The problem is that the scout suit's mobility isn't being used to get a tactical advantage quicker, it's being used to dodge attacks and exploit the weaknesses of the gamepad.
I believe the answer to your problem is that keyboard and mouse control that is coming soon |
Lilianna Sentinel
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
295
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 22:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
That topic has been discussed to death so I won't beat a dead horse here. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 22:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Those supposed "weaknesses of the gamepad" which make it hard to follow fast-moving targets have never caused problems in War for Cybertron (faster-paced than this, and with more variety in movement speeds), or Space Marine (slower-paced in general, but with a class that's built around high-speed movement who are more mobile than Scouts in DUST) or Resistance (also fast-paced, but more consistent in movement speeds than the other two, or DUST).
There are four possibilities here:
1. You suck at the game. 2. You have the sensitivity settings wrong for how you're trying to play. 3. The game's control scheme (NOT the controller itself) needs work. 4. Your controller is faulty. |
|
Raven Tesio
Liandri Hel-Jumpers Liandri Covenant
35
|
Posted - 2012.07.02 22:53:00 -
[31] - Quote
Lephis Phoenix wrote:Can anyone explain me please why strafing is such a big thing in this forum?
Have no idea, get the feeling no-one here has ever played an FPS on a Console before. Something I have noticed is most players have difficulty maintaining their lock on you when you step to your left or right... perhaps this has something to do with a far less aggressive auto-aim than other games (cough:COD:cough) have but honestly that isn't something that I have any issue with.
Nor does the "Bumper Jumping" really bother me either, partly because without being able to change controller setups - I know full well it's a pain in the arse for normal Bumper Jumpers to effectively fight, which is little short of awesome. Still if you played Halo for more than a few matches, this is something you learn to counter pretty-damn-quickly.
Realistically the issue I have with DUST has very little to do with player skill, honestly it doesn't annoy me being beaten by a more skillful player ... not does it upset me to get blobbed by another team (usually this means I've pissed them off enough \o/)
No what actually pisses me off is getting more Skilpoints for doing far better than other people, or hell I've had one game where I literally was perma-camping one of the spawn spots. No real skill involved, was logistics so never ran out of ammo and was racking in the SP for it. I mean I felt cheap for doing it, but at the same time got 120,000 SP for that one match; so really results speak for themselves.
Still in this case I think I was the higher Skillpoint player, not using anything but Militia Gear but still have a few of my Defensive and Offensive skills maxed. So I'm doing alot more damage, while capable of holding my own against several people due to my Defensive capabilities. There was little actual skill involved past shooting peoples heads, more came down to the fact that my character's skills were better than these fresh new players.
This said should I have come across someone with AUR purchased hardware, still using Militia myself; the story might've been different.
To me that is the bigger issue with the game, that right now it is possible being a lone wolf due to your own skill - nothing wrong with that just don't expect backup. In order to be truely effective as a team you really NEED to work together to win, there are no two ways about that ... this said at the end of the day, Skillpoints and AUR hardware WILL turn you in to a one-man army.
That in my opinion is just wrong, should never be the case. |
Cobalt Monkey
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
140
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 00:32:00 -
[32] - Quote
I disagree with the OP. FPS games are inherently skill based. You should never artificially limit a player's skills. That doesn't mean I encourage a lone wolf gameplay style (though that's all we really have right now with no parties and iffy communication). I'm not sure how you can say that teamwork should overcome skill every time. Not that it can, but that it should regardless of skill. At least, that's what I'm getting from your post. But if one player has the skill, the strategy, and just the right setup in just the right situation to take out your whole squad (and not glitching or anything), then he's darned well earned it. If they can even stand up to a well oiled machine of a team, good for them. Note that this scenario isn't really likely, especially in a game like this where the variety of equipment is so wide, and skills inject further discrepancies. You might be very well geared to take out a scout with extended shields, shield regen and buffed stamina, but not a heavy with a ton of armor, high end dropsuit, and a lot of firepower. That, if anything, will be what encourages people to stick together and work as a team. Well, once the chat and coms become more user friendly anyway, which is a large part of why you don't see it now, I expect.
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |