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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3586
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Posted - 2014.02.26 06:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just an observation here. With the changes to scouts to carry equip (which is fine), the scouts will outdo/match the logis in some respects. Some people will be, like, "Whatever, I only roll proto, biznatch!" However, I think balance needs to be considered across the board:
A C-1 comparison:
Scout: 3H 1L 2E, Light/Sidearm 174 CPU 33PG 130shp 70ahp Shield: 3/4, 30hp/s
Logi 2H 1L 2E, Light 175 CPU 39 PG 180shp 90ahp Shield: 6/8, 20hp/s
There's a mixed bag of stats here. The logi has more pg, and more hp. The scout has half the shield delays, 50% more recharge, another high slot, more speed, and a sidearm. At the STD level, without any higher suit skill, the fitting bonuses to cloaks/equip are pretty negligible.
At any rate, putting side the pluses/minuses of speed/hp/slot/shield-recharge stats, the new scouts will introduce a problem where half the standard logis are matched in equipment toting with the new scouts, and possibly surpassed in many ways. Many people assumed there was going to be a slot/stat adjustment to medium frames to account for the new suit differences, but CCP since reported that they weren't intended any slot changes.
The obvious solution here is to rebalance medium-frame slots along with the stats (since you're doing that already), as opposed to the "maybe at a later date" statement you gave in reference to medium-frame slot changes. It makes more sense in the context of a respec as well to make the sweeping slot changes at the same time rather than delay them till AFTER a respec. Complete your suit rebalance by including medium frames stats and slots with the changes. There's no reason you can't make it so the Amarrs aren't down a slot on the Medium frame, slanted towards high slots as an armor tanker, etc. as well.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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maka rax
Space Road Truckers.
19
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Posted - 2014.02.26 13:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Just an observation here. With the changes to scouts to carry equip (which is fine), the scouts will outdo/match the logis in some respects. Some people will be, like, "Whatever, I only roll proto, biznatch!" However, I think balance needs to be considered across the board:
A C-1 comparison:
Scout: 3H 1L 2E, Light/Sidearm 174 CPU 33PG 130shp 70ahp Shield: 3/4, 30hp/s
Logi 2H 1L 2E, Light 175 CPU 39 PG 180shp 90ahp Shield: 6/8, 20hp/s
There's a mixed bag of stats here. The logi has more pg, and more hp. The scout has half the shield delays, 50% more recharge, another high slot, more speed, and a sidearm. At the STD level, without any higher suit skill, the fitting bonuses to cloaks/equip are pretty negligible.
At any rate, putting side the pluses/minuses of speed/hp/slot/shield-recharge stats, the new scouts will introduce a problem where half the standard logis are matched in equipment toting with the new scouts, and possibly surpassed in many ways. Many people assumed there was going to be a slot/stat adjustment to medium frames to account for the new suit differences, but CCP since reported that they weren't intended any slot changes.
The obvious solution here is to rebalance medium-frame slots along with the stats (since you're doing that already), as opposed to the "maybe at a later date" statement you gave in reference to medium-frame slot changes. It makes more sense in the context of a respec as well to make the sweeping slot changes at the same time rather than delay them till AFTER a respec. Complete your suit rebalance by including medium frames stats and slots with the changes. There's no reason you can't make it so the Amarrs aren't down a slot on the Medium frame, slanted towards high slots as an armor tanker, etc. as well.
After seeing a logi run faster, hide better, and scan better, and kill better than my proto scout (at the moment) I like that logi will be playing catch up. Scouts have had it bad for a while...it's about time they became more than just a paper thin/hard to scan pixi.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3591
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Posted - 2014.02.26 13:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
maka rax wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Just an observation here. With the changes to scouts to carry equip (which is fine), the scouts will outdo/match the logis in some respects. Some people will be, like, "Whatever, I only roll proto, biznatch!" However, I think balance needs to be considered across the board:
A C-1 comparison:
Scout: 3H 1L 2E, Light/Sidearm 174 CPU 33PG 130shp 70ahp Shield: 3/4, 30hp/s
Logi 2H 1L 2E, Light 175 CPU 39 PG 180shp 90ahp Shield: 6/8, 20hp/s
There's a mixed bag of stats here. The logi has more pg, and more hp. The scout has half the shield delays, 50% more recharge, another high slot, more speed, and a sidearm. At the STD level, without any higher suit skill, the fitting bonuses to cloaks/equip are pretty negligible.
At any rate, putting side the pluses/minuses of speed/hp/slot/shield-recharge stats, the new scouts will introduce a problem where half the standard logis are matched in equipment toting with the new scouts, and possibly surpassed in many ways. Many people assumed there was going to be a slot/stat adjustment to medium frames to account for the new suit differences, but CCP since reported that they weren't intended any slot changes.
The obvious solution here is to rebalance medium-frame slots along with the stats (since you're doing that already), as opposed to the "maybe at a later date" statement you gave in reference to medium-frame slot changes. It makes more sense in the context of a respec as well to make the sweeping slot changes at the same time rather than delay them till AFTER a respec. Complete your suit rebalance by including medium frames stats and slots with the changes. There's no reason you can't make it so the Amarrs aren't down a slot on the Medium frame, slanted towards high slots as an armor tanker, etc. as well. After seeing a logi run faster, hide better, and scan better, and kill better than my proto scout (at the moment) I like that logi will be playing catch up. Scouts have had it bad for a while...it's about time they became more than just a paper thin/hard to scan pixi.
This isn't about revenge on classes that had it good. That's a horrible way to balance games.
The point isn't a "buff" to logistics necessarily either. It's more akin to clarifying their role better in context of the scout changes. If the scouts are all getting 2 equip slots across the board, then the Logi role as equipment holders is threatened on the STD level specifically with these two races. I wouldn't suggest just up and giving them both an extra equip slot, because I imagine the logis were originally balanced in context of those two races having fewer equip slots.
So, I'm asking for the stat/slot adjustment to take place across the medium frames to rectify the issue in a more holistic fashion. All the logis at STD will have 3 equip slots to have a 1 equip slot edge on the scouts (as opposed to a solution that nerfs scouts, which is a bad idea I think). The rest of the stats on the logis/mediums can shift as needed to better establish the role or justify that slot changes.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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X7 lion
Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives
127
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Posted - 2014.02.26 14:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
you can do it the other way around you know. so i think the balance is fine.
I am death incarnate, you will not see me or hear me.
You shall only feel the strike of my blade.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3593
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Posted - 2014.02.26 15:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
X7 lion wrote:you can do it the other way around you know. so i think the balance is fine.
You mean... you can remove the slots from scouts? That's a horrible idea.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
1328
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Posted - 2014.02.26 19:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote: This isn't about revenge on classes that had it good. That's a horrible way to balance games.
The point isn't a "buff" to logistics necessarily either. It's more akin to clarifying their role better in context of the scout changes. If the scouts are all getting 2 equip slots across the board, then the Logi role as equipment holders is threatened on the STD level specifically with these two races. I wouldn't suggest just up and giving them both an extra equip slot, because I imagine the logis were originally balanced in context of those two races having fewer equip slots.
So, I'm asking for the stat/slot adjustment to take place across the medium frames to rectify the issue in a more holistic fashion. All the logis at STD will have 3 equip slots to have a 1 equip slot edge on the scouts (as opposed to a solution that nerfs scouts, which is a bad idea I think). The rest of the stats on the logis/mediums can shift as needed to better establish the role or justify that slot changes.
This is a good concern. If I was a Cal Logi (I'm a full-time scout, actually), I would really consider running a Cal scout suit instead of any of my STD logi suits. It wouldn't be as efficient without the logi EQ bonus, but the additional high slot (which I could always leave blank for extra CPU/PG for my EQ), speed, and a sidearm would probably make this my go-to cheap suit for the beginning of the match push towards objectives. Additionally, there are stealth and situational awareness bonuses such as precision and scan range.
True logi's may not choose to go this route, perhaps because they wouldn't want to miss out on the EQ bonus or other racial logi bonus, such as the Caldari bonus to Nanohives.... but, I'm not sure if these logi benefits will be enough to make the suit a clear choice over just picking up a basic light caldari frame for minimal SP and just running that.
Another EQ slot for the frames with only 2L at STD may be the way to go. It's probably better than additional high/low slots as it gives a real incentive to use the STD logi suits. However, increasing the total number of slots could make other issues....
Hope CCP takes a closer look at this. It makes sense to consider.
Double posting like a Kaiser.
(Homage to Ghost Kaiser's impeccable forum etiquette)
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Asha Starwind
VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
386
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Posted - 2014.02.26 20:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:X7 lion wrote:you can do it the other way around you know. so i think the balance is fine. You mean... you can remove the slots from scouts? That's a horrible idea.
Well, it's the most obvious course action and probably why no one has brought it up before. I'm not gonna lie noticed this right away after stats were posted. So thank you, if we end up losing the extra slot or sidearm, you know the one small victory scouts have had in awhile.
32db Mad Bomber.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3604
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Posted - 2014.02.26 20:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:X7 lion wrote:you can do it the other way around you know. so i think the balance is fine. You mean... you can remove the slots from scouts? That's a horrible idea. Well, it's the most obvious course action and probably why no one has brought it up before. I'm not gonna lie noticed this right away after stats were posted. So thank you, if we end up losing the extra slot or sidearm, you know the one small victory scouts have had in awhile.
I think the scouts SHOULD have 2 equipment slots. The fact they haven't re-examined the medium suits is the larger issue. All of the new suits are slot-equal across the board. Every Scout has the same number of slots as another race at every tier, same with Commandos and Sentinels.
I feel thery're doing a disservice to medium frames to leave them untouched when they're rebalancing scouts and heavies. The equipment slot difference is just one of the glaring issues. The fact the Amarr Scout is slower than an Assault is another. It's better to get this out in the open and fix it -BEFORE- 1.8 drops.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
2142
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Posted - 2014.02.26 22:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
The second slot is intended for a cloak, though obviously plenty of people will put something else there. I'll use a scout fit for uplinks myself. (I already do, all the better with 2 EQ slots)
One thing I think you are underestimating is the logi equipment fitting bonus, you may have the same EQ slots and only slightly less CPU/PG but your [u[]effective[/u] CPU/PG when using an equipment-based fitting (e.g., filling both EQ slots with something besides a cloak) will be significantly lower.
That said, I'd love to see extra EQ slots on some of the logi suits but I don't think it's encroaching as much on logis as you think it will. Uplinks are the best example. I was all set to trick out a sweet Amarr scout suit with dual uplinks to be a workhorse fitting for me but with the overall equipment nerf it's much less attractive, I may just try to speed tank my templar logi as best I can instead.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Forum Warrior lv.2
Amarr victor!
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3606
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Posted - 2014.02.26 22:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:The second slot is intended for a cloak, though obviously plenty of people will put something else there. I'll use a scout fit for uplinks myself. (I already do, all the better with 2 EQ slots)
One thing I think you are underestimating is the logi equipment fitting bonus, you may have the same EQ slots and only slightly less CPU/PG but your [u[]effective[/u] CPU/PG when using an equipment-based fitting (e.g., filling both EQ slots with something besides a cloak) will be significantly lower.
That said, I'd love to see extra EQ slots on some of the logi suits but I don't think it's encroaching as much on logis as you think it will. Uplinks are the best example. I was all set to trick out a sweet Amarr scout suit with dual uplinks to be a workhorse fitting for me but with the overall equipment nerf it's much less attractive, I may just try to speed tank my templar logi as best I can instead.
It's about the logis vs. scouts at STD level specifically, which is why I snarked about proto.
When both classes are PRO level, the bonuses they get from their classes will define them more even at standard.
When they're both literally at rank 1 skill though, the differences aren't really there. It's 2 equip slots vs. 2 equip slots, and neither of them has much of a fitting bonus to speak of (5% to equipment). So, you have to ask, "Is it intentional for the scout to be a better/comparable logi at STD level?" Once both have level to ADV, their STD suits will stick apart a bit more, but I'm looking at it from the low-sp perspective specifically.
You or I could probably take a scout to proto seconds after 1.8 launches. A new player, or someone cross-classing will have to put in a substantial time investment to unlock the scout role and level it up.
Really, I'd just like them to take an actual balance pass on medium frame slots, since they apparently saw fit to adjust the stats.. and it seems like balancing all the current suits at once would make more sense.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
2144
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Posted - 2014.02.26 22:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
I see your point, but I think even at level 3 with a fairly modest SP investment the difference is big enough to matter.
The other thing is, it's not necessarily the best move to balance things based on the STD level because while a lot of people use STD suits, only a small minority use them with only the STD-level bonuses. You could argue you should balance them at each level but I'm not sure that's realistic, especially given CCP's track record.
But, like I said, you would get no argument from me that adding an eq slot to scout suits justifies adding one to STD logi suits too. Then again scouts have been pooped on for so long I'm cool with throwing them a bone.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Forum Warrior lv.2
Amarr victor!
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Ander Thedas
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
335
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Posted - 2014.02.26 22:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
I've brought this up, too. As someone who predominately runs std Amarr logi this does kind of bother me a bit.
FW lvl10 reward
Mobile Redlines
Default FWRace
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X7 lion
Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives
127
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Posted - 2014.02.27 04:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:X7 lion wrote:you can do it the other way around you know. so i think the balance is fine. You mean... you can remove the slots from scouts? That's a horrible idea. no i ment logis can run scout type fits
I am death incarnate, you will not see me or hear me.
You shall only feel the strike of my blade.
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance
4649
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Posted - 2014.02.27 13:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Just an observation here. With the changes to scouts to carry equip (which is fine), the scouts will outdo/match the logis in some respects. Some people will be, like, "Whatever, I only roll proto, biznatch!" However, I think balance needs to be considered across the board:
A C-1 comparison:
Scout: 3H 1L 2E, Light/Sidearm 174 CPU 33PG 130shp 70ahp Shield: 3/4, 30hp/s
Logi 2H 1L 2E, Light 175 CPU 39 PG 180shp 90ahp Shield: 6/8, 20hp/s
There's a mixed bag of stats here. The logi has more pg, and more hp. The scout has half the shield delays, 50% more recharge, another high slot, more speed, and a sidearm. At the STD level, without any higher suit skill, the fitting bonuses to cloaks/equip are pretty negligible.
At any rate, putting side the pluses/minuses of speed/hp/slot/shield-recharge stats, the new scouts will introduce a problem where half the standard logis are matched in equipment toting with the new scouts, and possibly surpassed in many ways. Many people assumed there was going to be a slot/stat adjustment to medium frames to account for the new suit differences, but CCP since reported that they weren't intended any slot changes.
The obvious solution here is to rebalance medium-frame slots along with the stats (since you're doing that already), as opposed to the "maybe at a later date" statement you gave in reference to medium-frame slot changes. It makes more sense in the context of a respec as well to make the sweeping slot changes at the same time rather than delay them till AFTER a respec. Complete your suit rebalance by including medium frames stats and slots with the changes. There's no reason you can't make it so the Amarrs aren't down a slot on the Medium frame, slanted towards high slots as an armor tanker, etc. as well. I and others are still waiting for the day when Dropsuit tiers are finally eliminated and we have a set of balanced, workable suits that are more accessable and get rid of the stupid-ass power-creep we have now.
I don't see the point in talking balance about something that sucks and needs to go away.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3617
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Posted - 2014.02.27 13:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Just an observation here. With the changes to scouts to carry equip (which is fine), the scouts will outdo/match the logis in some respects. Some people will be, like, "Whatever, I only roll proto, biznatch!" However, I think balance needs to be considered across the board:
A C-1 comparison:
Scout: 3H 1L 2E, Light/Sidearm 174 CPU 33PG 130shp 70ahp Shield: 3/4, 30hp/s
Logi 2H 1L 2E, Light 175 CPU 39 PG 180shp 90ahp Shield: 6/8, 20hp/s
There's a mixed bag of stats here. The logi has more pg, and more hp. The scout has half the shield delays, 50% more recharge, another high slot, more speed, and a sidearm. At the STD level, without any higher suit skill, the fitting bonuses to cloaks/equip are pretty negligible.
At any rate, putting side the pluses/minuses of speed/hp/slot/shield-recharge stats, the new scouts will introduce a problem where half the standard logis are matched in equipment toting with the new scouts, and possibly surpassed in many ways. Many people assumed there was going to be a slot/stat adjustment to medium frames to account for the new suit differences, but CCP since reported that they weren't intended any slot changes.
The obvious solution here is to rebalance medium-frame slots along with the stats (since you're doing that already), as opposed to the "maybe at a later date" statement you gave in reference to medium-frame slot changes. It makes more sense in the context of a respec as well to make the sweeping slot changes at the same time rather than delay them till AFTER a respec. Complete your suit rebalance by including medium frames stats and slots with the changes. There's no reason you can't make it so the Amarrs aren't down a slot on the Medium frame, slanted towards high slots as an armor tanker, etc. as well. I and others are still waiting for the day when Dropsuit tiers are finally eliminated and we have a set of balanced, workable suits that are more accessable and get rid of the stupid-ass power-creep we have now. I don't see the point in talking balance about something that sucks and needs to go away.
I don't have any problem with Tiericide. I feel that you go to war with the army you've got though. They just introduced a new set of tiered suits to use, and so Tiericide in the near future seems... less than likely. So, I try to make balance suggestions within the framework we have because getting them to make more incremental changes and tweaks seems more likely.
Believe me, if I had completely free reign over the design aspect of Dust, there are A LOT of things I'd like alter to a much larger degree. I bet you'd find KAGEHOSHI and a number of other frequent posters suggesting "minor" changes feel the same way, and have their own visions for what they'd prefer in the game.
You try to make the points you can.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Mobius Wyvern
Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance
4650
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Posted - 2014.02.27 13:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Just an observation here. With the changes to scouts to carry equip (which is fine), the scouts will outdo/match the logis in some respects. Some people will be, like, "Whatever, I only roll proto, biznatch!" However, I think balance needs to be considered across the board:
A C-1 comparison:
Scout: 3H 1L 2E, Light/Sidearm 174 CPU 33PG 130shp 70ahp Shield: 3/4, 30hp/s
Logi 2H 1L 2E, Light 175 CPU 39 PG 180shp 90ahp Shield: 6/8, 20hp/s
There's a mixed bag of stats here. The logi has more pg, and more hp. The scout has half the shield delays, 50% more recharge, another high slot, more speed, and a sidearm. At the STD level, without any higher suit skill, the fitting bonuses to cloaks/equip are pretty negligible.
At any rate, putting side the pluses/minuses of speed/hp/slot/shield-recharge stats, the new scouts will introduce a problem where half the standard logis are matched in equipment toting with the new scouts, and possibly surpassed in many ways. Many people assumed there was going to be a slot/stat adjustment to medium frames to account for the new suit differences, but CCP since reported that they weren't intended any slot changes.
The obvious solution here is to rebalance medium-frame slots along with the stats (since you're doing that already), as opposed to the "maybe at a later date" statement you gave in reference to medium-frame slot changes. It makes more sense in the context of a respec as well to make the sweeping slot changes at the same time rather than delay them till AFTER a respec. Complete your suit rebalance by including medium frames stats and slots with the changes. There's no reason you can't make it so the Amarrs aren't down a slot on the Medium frame, slanted towards high slots as an armor tanker, etc. as well. I and others are still waiting for the day when Dropsuit tiers are finally eliminated and we have a set of balanced, workable suits that are more accessable and get rid of the stupid-ass power-creep we have now. I don't see the point in talking balance about something that sucks and needs to go away. I don't have any problem with Tiericide. I feel that you go to war with the army you've got though. They just introduced a new set of tiered suits to use, and so Tiericide in the near future seems... less than likely. So, I try to make balance suggestions within the framework we have because getting them to make more incremental changes and tweaks seems more likely. Believe me, if I had completely free reign over the design aspect of Dust, there are A LOT of things I'd like alter to a much larger degree. I bet you'd find KAGEHOSHI and a number of other frequent posters suggesting "minor" changes feel the same way, and have their own visions for what they'd prefer in the game. You try to make the points you can. True enough.
I think part of the way that this balanced out better are the bonuses for Equipment fitting that Logi get, as well as the bonus to racial Equipment types. A Scout suit could carry the same equipment as a Logi, but their fit would suffer due to not getting the reduction to fitting costs, and they would thus be less effective.
You're quite unlikely to see a Scout running around with their own Triage hive, for example. I'd imagine there will be many who carry a Compact hive, but those are far less of a concern.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Master Smurf
Nos Nothi
153
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Posted - 2014.02.27 16:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yup,
The secondary equipment slot is all because the cloak wasnt made an internal function of the scout suit. Its a knock on issue.
I also agree with Demonsbane, if there isnt too much deviation at Lv1 it isnt the end of the world.
"Shine bright like a diamond"
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killertojo42
Sardaukar Merc Guild
27
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Posted - 2014.02.27 16:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
They have an equipment slot already, CCP is just going to unbalance a whole suit class just so people will play with the new toy
When walking on the battlefield i stand alone
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