DUST Search - Putting Together a AV vs HAV 'Think Tank'

Aeon Amadi wrote:

daishi mk03 wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

I slightly disagree with this because HAVs are actually not that expensive when put up against someone in a Prototype suit with all complex mods, which can run in the 100,000 - 200,000 ISK range.

Regardless, it's something that will be brought up in the Think Tank and I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what everyone else has to say because, as I've previously stated, my opinion is -my- opinion and even if the numbers look awry it could work out in actual execution - thereby, I need more people to tackle this one.

I fully agree on this point. A good tank costs 800k ISK, with best mods and Adv. Turret. (Don't take proto, isn't worth it for regular public use w/o squad).
A proto AV fit costs also up to 100k ISK.

I have to fear only the AV guy.
He has to fear me and the other 10+ infantry guys in my team.

I think it is fair this way.

As I said, the whole tank vs. AV thing isn't that off balance. People here tend to cry really often and long. Most annoying thing are the bugs / graphic engine problems.

One of the main issues that I'm going to be bringing up in the think tank (provided I ever actually get volunteers - hint hint) is the disparity in skill point dispersal between the two playstyles.

Put it to you this way, it's 1,500,000 SP cheaper getting Vehicle Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering to 5 than it is to get the Infantry Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering.

Granted, Engineering for Vehicles is about useless - but I digress.

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Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2354	Posted - 2013.08.05 15:44:00 - [1] - Quote Essentially what I'm looking for are six players. Three players who are dedicated AV who have at least some form of Proto AV option. Three players who are dedicated Tankers who have sufficient skills in HAVs with experience to boot. It is preferred that you have Skype and some forum activity to present to the table that can be used as a form of 'resume'. There are a great deal of topics and issues to present, I understand, so we'll try to go over as much as possible from as many viewpoints as possible. To get this out in the open, this think tank is being put together under the pretense that we can have a logical debate over the balance issues from all angles with an odd number of people to provide a tie-breaker if there is ever a "yes/no" answer to something. Granted, this think tank is in no official capacity but it is being established as a baseline representation of where the community stands from a civil point of view rather than the disjointed muck that the forums have provided thus far. Please send an in-game message to either Aeon Amadi (dust 514) or Nomistrav (eve online) if you are interested. Thanks.
DeadlyAztec11 Max-Pain-inc Dark Taboo 1789	Posted - 2013.08.05 15:54:00 - [2] - Quote I'm dedicated AV. But I has no Skype :(
daishi mk03 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 30	Posted - 2013.08.05 15:56:00 - [3] - Quote This is a great idea and might lead to a fruitful discussion. It would be important to make a list / script during the conference and upload it later for public. However, many questions in tank vs AV discussions are heavily influenced by personal opinions. For example, one of the big questions: Considering equal skill and equipment meta level, standard Dust 514 territory, how many AV players should it take to kill a tank? When I asked my tanker colleagues I heard numbers from 1 to 6. Yet, this is a really fundamental question. Another point are bugs in the game and problems of the game engine, which have big influence on tank vs AV battles. To name a few, invisible forgegun shots, invisible swarm rockets, missing rendering for railgun turrets ... But yeah, give it a try.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 2667	Posted - 2013.08.05 16:04:00 - [4] - Quote Forgot this one guy's name, but there's someone who will volunteer, but won't give a logical argument- they want nothing short of the old HAVs that required an entire team of proto AV to destroy.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2354	Posted - 2013.08.05 16:15:00 - [5] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Forgot this one guy's name, but there's someone who will volunteer, but won't give a logical argument- they want nothing short of the old HAVs that required an entire team of proto AV to destroy. Edit: I remember now: Void Echo Well, not the person I'm looking for then. Looking for people who are willing to bend to reason and logic, not stick with personal opinion and stubborn ideals because it's what they run.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2354	Posted - 2013.08.05 16:16:00 - [6] - Quote daishi mk03 wrote: This is a great idea and might lead to a fruitful discussion. It would be important to make a list / script during the conference and upload it later for publicity. Will definitely consider this. Will definitely be a long read though as my "Perfecting The Roles" series on Feedback/Requests often goes in excess of three full forum posts. This is something I simply can't tackle by myself - tried to and just ran into all sorts of issues that I couldn't honestly give any feedback on because I don't run tanks.
daishi mk03 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 31	Posted - 2013.08.05 16:28:00 - [7] - Quote Another small thing, you shouldn't talk so much about special, gamebreaking situation. For example, on some open maps a single guy with a proto swarm launcher, standing on top of the mcc will suppress every tank play. Those swarms, most of the time invisible (if the merc isn't drawn, the rockets are also not drawn) will hit perpendicular to the surface. There is practically no cover. Also, snipers won't reach him due to the strange mcc hitbox. If you avoid stuff / situations like this (which are clearly no topic for balance but for technical fixing) in your discussion, you'll find that the tank vs. AV stuff isn't so far off balance. Actually, I personally enjoy it the way it is right now. I like to be driven back by clever AV player some games, heavily limiting my radius of action 50% of the battle time. This is fair. Overextending kills you, that's fair too. Tanks should never be able to roll over 16 people.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 2669	Posted - 2013.08.05 16:32:00 - [8] - Quote I'm not going to be a part of this one, but I good idea to bring up right away is simply making HAVs cheaper to match their effectiveness. HAV drivers will be able to profit, and AVers will be able to actually make WP because HAVs will be more common.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2355	Posted - 2013.08.05 16:36:00 - [9] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm not going to be a part of this one, but I good idea to bring up right away is simply making HAVs cheaper to match their effectiveness. HAV drivers will be able to profit, and AVers will be able to actually make WP because HAVs will be more common. This is actually one of the things I've been researching on my own as it's one of the most commonly brought up arguments that HAVs are more expensive thus they should be more powerful. I slightly disagree with this because HAVs are actually not that expensive when put up against someone in a Prototype suit with all complex mods, which can run in the 100,000 - 200,000 ISK range. Regardless, it's something that will be brought up in the Think Tank and I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what everyone else has to say because, as I've previously stated, my opinion is -my- opinion and even if the numbers look awry it could work out in actual execution - thereby, I need more people to tackle this one.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 1069	Posted - 2013.08.05 17:03:00 - [10] - Quote hull 200,000 ISK before mod, before turrets and that is standard.

CuuCH Crusher Commando Perkone Caldari State 199	Posted - 2013.08.05 17:04:00 - [11] - Quote I have a proficiency 5 FG. I mainly try to destroy tanks, but I have also dabbled in tanks a little. I feel I might be able to bring something to the table and advance the discussion.
daishi mk03 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 31	Posted - 2013.08.05 17:41:00 - [12] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I slightly disagree with this because HAVs are actually not that expensive when put up against someone in a Prototype suit with all complex mods, which can run in the 100,000 - 200,000 ISK range. Regardless, it's something that will be brought up in the Think Tank and I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what everyone else has to say because, as I've previously stated, my opinion is -my- opinion and even if the numbers look awry it could work out in actual execution - thereby, I need more people to tackle this one. I fully agree on this point. A good tank costs 800k ISK, with best mods and Adv. Turret. (Don't take proto, isn't worth it for regular public use w/o squad). A proto AV fit costs also up to 100k ISK. I have to fear only the AV guy. He has to fear me and the other 10+ infantry guys in my team. I think it is fair this way. As I said, the whole tank vs. AV thing isn't that off balance. People here tend to cry really often and long. Most annoying thing are the bugs / graphic engine problems.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2355	Posted - 2013.08.05 17:59:00 - [13] - Quote daishi mk03 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I slightly disagree with this because HAVs are actually not that expensive when put up against someone in a Prototype suit with all complex mods, which can run in the 100,000 - 200,000 ISK range. Regardless, it's something that will be brought up in the Think Tank and I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what everyone else has to say because, as I've previously stated, my opinion is -my- opinion and even if the numbers look awry it could work out in actual execution - thereby, I need more people to tackle this one. I fully agree on this point. A good tank costs 800k ISK, with best mods and Adv. Turret. (Don't take proto, isn't worth it for regular public use w/o squad). A proto AV fit costs also up to 100k ISK. I have to fear only the AV guy. He has to fear me and the other 10+ infantry guys in my team. I think it is fair this way. As I said, the whole tank vs. AV thing isn't that off balance. People here tend to cry really often and long. Most annoying thing are the bugs / graphic engine problems. One of the main issues that I'm going to be bringing up in the think tank (provided I ever actually get volunteers - hint hint) is the disparity in skill point dispersal between the two playstyles. Put it to you this way, it's 1,500,000 SP cheaper getting Vehicle Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering to 5 than it is to get the Infantry Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering. Granted, Engineering for Vehicles is about useless - but I digress.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 322	Posted - 2013.08.05 18:20:00 - [14] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: daishi mk03 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I slightly disagree with this because HAVs are actually not that expensive when put up against someone in a Prototype suit with all complex mods, which can run in the 100,000 - 200,000 ISK range. Regardless, it's something that will be brought up in the Think Tank and I'm honestly looking forward to seeing what everyone else has to say because, as I've previously stated, my opinion is -my- opinion and even if the numbers look awry it could work out in actual execution - thereby, I need more people to tackle this one. I fully agree on this point. A good tank costs 800k ISK, with best mods and Adv. Turret. (Don't take proto, isn't worth it for regular public use w/o squad). A proto AV fit costs also up to 100k ISK. I have to fear only the AV guy. He has to fear me and the other 10+ infantry guys in my team. I think it is fair this way. As I said, the whole tank vs. AV thing isn't that off balance. People here tend to cry really often and long. Most annoying thing are the bugs / graphic engine problems. One of the main issues that I'm going to be bringing up in the think tank (provided I ever actually get volunteers - hint hint) is the disparity in skill point dispersal between the two playstyles. Put it to you this way, it's 1,500,000 SP cheaper getting Vehicle Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering to 5 than it is to get the Infantry Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering. Granted, Engineering for Vehicles is about useless - but I digress. This is one of my main disputes when Uprising released, how infantry electronics and engineering had scaled up so much, yet vehicle ones hadn't, then I heard vehicle engineering skill was altered n I left it for them to dispute. But yeah daishi makes some good points, AV players have the vehicles AND the rest of the enemy team gunning for them and my proto swarm fitting runs in around 180,000 isk a time at max potential for damage with as much armor tank as fits. This is another issue ... the only feasable AV is armor tanked so you can damage fit the high slots, which makes you either slow or low buffer with the new plates and very easy target for enemy infantry or the vehicles.
Shattered Mirage The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 79	Posted - 2013.08.05 18:46:00 - [15] - Quote daishi mk03 wrote: Another small thing, you shouldn't talk so much about special, gamebreaking situation. For example, on some open maps a single guy with a proto swarm launcher, standing on top of the mcc will suppress every tank play. Those swarms, most of the time invisible (if the merc isn't drawn, the rockets are also not drawn) will hit perpendicular to the surface. There is practically no cover. Also, snipers won't reach him due to the strange mcc hitbox. If you avoid stuff / situations like this (which are clearly no topic for balance but for technical fixing) in your discussion, you'll find that the tank vs. AV stuff isn't so far off balance. Actually, I personally enjoy it the way it is right now. I like to be driven back by clever AV player some games, heavily limiting my radius of action 50% of the battle time. This is fair. Overextending kills you, that's fair too. Tanks should never be able to roll over 16 people. Also, the rockets glitch through the ground, buildings, stairs, walls, and vehicles just to kill you... oh, I forgot to mention that they're capable of doing a complete 360 in less then a second...
daishi mk03 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 33	Posted - 2013.08.05 18:58:00 - [16] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: One of the main issues that I'm going to be bringing up in the think tank (provided I ever actually get volunteers - hint hint) is the disparity in skill point dispersal between the two playstyles. Put it to you this way, it's 1,500,000 SP cheaper getting Vehicle Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering to 5 than it is to get the Infantry Core Upgrades/Electronics/Engineering. Granted, Engineering for Vehicles is about useless - but I digress. I don't know about the infantry core skills shame, I put all my SP into tanks. Yet, I think there is a fundamental difference in those Core Skills between tanks and infantry. For example, Vehicle Engineering (2x) is important for PG modules and that's all, the bonus is good, but can be neglected at first (for madrugars). Vehicle Armor Plating (5x) however is way more important, since you won't be able to fit a good tank without the -5% for Armor Plates it gives each level. I can only speak for armor tanks, but w/o 3m SP you won't fit a proper Madrugar. After those 3m invested, all you have is a basic Madrugar (with much space to improve) and that's it. No versatility. Edit: Basic Madrugar: Active Heat Sink, best armor plate, best repper, 2 resistance
ratamaq doc 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 30	Posted - 2013.08.05 19:04:00 - [17] - Quote I wouldn't mind being a part of this. I am level 4 AV Grenade (Use Packed Advanced) and prof 3 swarm. I only fit the advanced swarms, because usually that is all that is needed I fit this on a Advanced Amar Logi. All together my clone close is just over 50k + the LAV to get me into position, which is usually a BPO. Only the strongest Shield tanks with skilled aware drivers, and/or ample ground support survive me. I think the discussion points here are good. I could bring to the table experience I have with both solo killing Tanks both Shield and Armor, and as a co ordinated team effort. I can tell you what situations make it difficult. I think arguments like "Should single AV guy be able to take down a tank with only a driver vs a tank with support" are healthy. I will come with bias, even as someone who will activily hunt a tank as soon as one drops, and even suicide into the redline to take one down, I'm more than sure I have died more to them than I've killed. Hatred forged from the days of closed beta when tanks seemed indestructable. I feel for dedicated tank drivers who have no true adv/pro options that have the chance facing a Merc like me who has dedicated time and SP into ruining your days, but, sins of our fathers. But I will also argue that it TAKES a Merc with dedication to hunting big game to take you down. All you see is the AV grenades that kill you. You do not see the steps I took to change my fitting, sniff your location and pattern, position myself with nano hives, and end your reign of terror on my people.
Void Echo Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 908	Posted - 2013.08.05 20:12:00 - [18] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Forgot this one guy's name, but there's someone who will volunteer, but won't give a logical argument- they want nothing short of the old HAVs that required an entire team of proto AV to destroy. Edit: I remember now: Void Echo you got me all wrong kid, iv never mentioned anything about me wanting to have god mode tank around, I believe that tanks should be tanks and hard to destroy and I don't believe its balanced of one person can solo unless they are using prototype gear
Void Echo Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 908	Posted - 2013.08.05 20:14:00 - [19] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Forgot this one guy's name, but there's someone who will volunteer, but won't give a logical argument- they want nothing short of the old HAVs that required an entire team of proto AV to destroy. Edit: I remember now: Void Echo Well, not the person I'm looking for then. Looking for people who are willing to bend to reason and logic, not stick with personal opinion and stubborn ideals because it's what they run. I go give reason and I try my best to bring logic, but here there is a difference between logics..
Nosid Katona HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 32	Posted - 2013.08.05 20:23:00 - [20] - Quote I'd be interested in this if I had the experiance but since I don't really tank and have refrained from spending AV for the time being I will simply keep an eye on this. Please keep us updated if this think tank comes to fruition. (I just played FNV: old world blues again yesterday; thought I'd say that's ironic.) Maybe now we can get things done and have a meaningful conversation; I've tried but it's always derailed by trolls and Extreamly on either side. Vae Victis

Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet Top Men. 283	Posted - 2013.08.05 20:27:00 - [21] - Quote AV here. Pretty much all I do nowadays. 14 Mil SP Heavy w/ Proto Forge (L4 Prof) ADV Amarr w/ Proto Swarm Launchers (L4 Prof) Proto Grenades Complex damage mods across the board And way too many confirmed tank kills to count.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2358	Posted - 2013.08.05 20:30:00 - [22] - Quote Alright, let's do it this way - anyone interested just get ahold of me on Skype. Username: mrsmm1991 Don't be offended if I don't respond right away, I use that username to contact a wide variety of people for anything from Testing to general Eve Banter.
Aizen Intiki Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack 339	Posted - 2013.08.05 20:30:00 - [23] - Quote No skype, but I'm in if you need me. If you want, contact me through Godin Thekiller. Peace, Aizen EDIT: btw, I have both PROTO AV, and I have maxed out armor skills on my main, and almost maxed out shield skills on my alt, as well as all PROTO turrets.
daishi mk03 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 34	Posted - 2013.08.05 20:31:00 - [24] - Quote Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: AV here. Pretty much all I do nowadays. 14 Mil SP Heavy w/ Proto Forge (L4 Prof) ADV Amarr w/ Proto Swarm Launchers (L4 Prof) Proto Grenades Complex damage mods across the board And way too many confirmed tank kills to count. I hate you.
Void Echo Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 908	Posted - 2013.08.05 21:15:00 - [25] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Alright, let's do it this way - anyone interested just get ahold of me on Skype. Username: mrsmm1991 Don't be offended if I don't respond right away, I use that username to contact a wide variety of people for anything from Testing to general Eve Banter. just sent a Skype message
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 1019	Posted - 2013.08.05 21:16:00 - [26] - Quote One problem you might encounter are tankers who only go Armor tanking or Shield tanking, as they are radically different for AV. I've been tanking in every build, I'm willing to help if you want.
voidfaction Void of Faction 40	Posted - 2013.08.05 21:32:00 - [27] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm not going to be a part of this one, but I good idea to bring up right away is simply making HAVs cheaper to match their effectiveness. HAV drivers will be able to profit, and AVers will be able to actually make WP because HAVs will be more common. from an av and non av perspective why would I want more tanks than there is already? 3+ seems to be the norm now. any more and if your not in a tank the only option would be AV. Tanks should require sniper support to take out AV along with close range support. I know when im sniping i am always looking ahead of my teams tank looking for av and when im using av i hope my team has good counter-snipers while thinking i'm suppressing/pushing the tank back sure wish a friendly tank would take him out before i get sniped. I see the problem not tank vs av its non tactic tankers vs non tactic av not using the rest of the team. both teams have the option to bring in a tank if the enemy has a tank then guess what its fair. it is 16v16 so both teams has the same options provided they add/fix matchmaking so you don't get the 4 squads vs full randoms in public but in PC there is no excuse.
Void Echo Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 908	Posted - 2013.08.05 21:35:00 - [28] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: I'm not going to be a part of this one, but I good idea to bring up right away is simply making HAVs cheaper to match their effectiveness. HAV drivers will be able to profit, and AVers will be able to actually make WP because HAVs will be more common. from an av and non av perspective why would I want more tanks than there is already? 3+ seems to be the norm now. any more and if your not in a tank the only option would be AV. Tanks should require sniper support to take out AV along with close range support. I know when im sniping i am always looking ahead of my teams tank looking for av and when im using av i hope my team has good counter-snipers while thinking i'm suppressing/pushing the tank back sure wish a friendly tank would take him out before i get sniped. I see the problem not tank vs av its non tactic tankers vs non tactic av not using the rest of the team. both teams have the option to bring in a tank if the enemy has a tank then guess what its fair. it is 16v16 so both teams has the same options provided they add/fix matchmaking so you don't get the 4 squads vs full randoms in public but in PC there is no excuse. how would a tank be used in your perspective?
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 2358	Posted - 2013.08.05 21:43:00 - [29] - Quote Alright - look people. This thread wasn't made for discussion of AV vs HAVs, nor was it made for idea proposals. We'll have everything outlined on our own and if we feel the need for something to be brought up we'll look into it. So, thanks for your concern but please keep this thread on topic - that is to say, on topic with volunteering for the Think Tank. Thank you.
Charlotte O'Dell 0uter.Heaven EoN. 834	Posted - 2013.08.05 23:07:00 - [30] - Quote I nominate Caeli for tanks and D S 10 for AV



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