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MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
258
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Posted - 2013.08.01 15:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
So been hammering this for months but it tends to fall out of sight because of all the balance issues. We've waited months for the Rollover system that was the intended iteration of the SP system. The current system is the temporary system in place until that rollover system could be implmented.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483247#post483247
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 What sad is this was posted in february and rollover was targeted for release on Uprising which wold have been the next major release. Now i get that there is a lot of other issues that are taking away from iterating a rollover system, or perhaps its been abandoned altogether.
But lets face it the dev resources needed for rollover could be completely eliminated by removing the SP Cap outright. The intention of trying to limit the gap between casual and hardcore players is instead creating a larger vacuum between new and veteran players. The delay in time to get into fighting shape often leads to discouragement and most wont even take the time. Moreover given the low pool of players to begin with it creates stagnation at the top as the veterans have to wait for new competition to arise.
IT has created almost a system of educational classes where each new crop of players is like a freshman class that is forever behind the seniors and when the seniors graduate(leave the game) the freshman move up but in the end all you have is a non-cycling conveyor of players with no retention at both the bottom and the top. So instead of growth in the playerbase all you are getting is a steady state and over time will result in decline.
Getting rid of the SP CAP has far more benefits at the bottom then it has deleterious effects at the top. It really is time to just get rid of it already. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
262
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Posted - 2013.08.01 15:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:So been hammering this for months but it tends to fall out of sight because of all the balance issues. We've waited months for the Rollover system that was the intended iteration of the SP system. The current system is the temporary system in place until that rollover system could be implmented. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483247#post483247https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 What sad is this was posted in february and rollover was targeted for release on Uprising which wold have been the next major release. Now i get that there is a lot of other issues that are taking away from iterating a rollover system, or perhaps its been abandoned altogether. But lets face it the dev resources needed for rollover could be completely eliminated by removing the SP Cap outright. The intention of trying to limit the gap between casual and hardcore players is instead creating a larger vacuum between new and veteran players. The delay in time to get into fighting shape often leads to discouragement and most wont even take the time. Moreover given the low pool of players to begin with it creates stagnation at the top as the veterans have to wait for new competition to arise. IT has created almost a system of educational classes where each new crop of players is like a freshman class that is forever behind the seniors and when the seniors graduate(leave the game) the freshman move up but in the end all you have is a non-cycling conveyor of players with no retention at both the bottom and the top. So instead of growth in the playerbase all you are getting is a steady state and over time will result in decline. Getting rid of the SP CAP has far more benefits at the bottom then it has deleterious effects at the top. It really is time to just get rid of it already. It was a dumb idea the last 20 times someone suggested this. It still is.
Hardly dumb, what is dumb is your sad rants about the AR killing weapon diversity when you are clueless on how the game functions and why the AR is used. The SP CAP outfights holds players back needlessly most of all new players. It has been shown over and over and over in PC battles that those who have a requisitie amount of SP are at no longer at a disadvantage to others who have more. That number is between 10-15M SP. Once you have a proto suit, weapon, mods and core skill in one area and have a team that is balanced around all the roles needed to play a skirmish effectively, the disadvantage is nearly zero compared to a team that has enough to say do this with 2 different fittings each. There is a diminishing return on the battlefield effectiveness on a veteran player after a threshold amount of SP so even a hardcore grinder cant run away from the pack and have any sort of real advantage. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
262
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Posted - 2013.08.01 15:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:I'd say fix the skill tree so it's not a linear SP sink and either make SP 100% passive (with new players gaining SP faster) or finally implement the SP rollover we were promised.
Thats the point Cosgar, i wouldnt care if they could implement the rollover. but the reason it wasnt implemented in february was they were having technical hurdles implementing it. Now im all for implementing it but it seems CCP still hasn't figured out how to do it or dont have the dev resources to do it considering all the other issues in the game, and honestly id rather dev resources be used in those areas when removing the SP Cap would be a simple server side hotfix that wont require a client update of any kind.
Lets face it how many veterans you know that are interested in grinding out SP if they have anywhere between 15-20M SP? Most dont even play so are we really going to see a rampant runaway of hardcore players and even if they did lets say someone grinds and grinds and grinds and is suddenly at 50M SP in the next month or two? What effect will this player have on the game? Will they be anymore difficult to kill, will they be able to singlehandedly carry their team to victory? Will they be the most difficult player to stop in this game ever and a GAWD?
Along with removing the SP cap, CCP also wanted to reduce the SP gains to offset it, so boosters could still have value if they are increasing your SP gains. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
262
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Posted - 2013.08.01 16:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Truthfully, getting rid of active SP in favor of full passive SP is a much better option for Dust than removing the cap.
Oh, and my quest to raise awareness about diversity and true balance is something CCP should be focusing on, not just me.
No it really isnt |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
262
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:calisk galern wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Truthfully, getting rid of active SP in favor of full passive SP is a much better option for Dust than removing the cap. this I never want to see, if people don't play after capping out now, why would they play at all if it's passive, they'd show up play 1 or 2 games then leave. The game needs to be fun to play. Masking that with an SP grind is part of the problem. Removing the SP cap will just add to the grind feel of Dust, and make it feel like a job. Passive SP only would get rid of afkers and solve other problems as well, including the grind.
LOL no the grind feeling comes from having to play for months and months to be battle effective. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
263
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Yeah, if they get rid of the cap, they should just get rid of Active SP.
If they simply get rid of the cap, then the no-lifers will no-life it up.
No-lifers are bad m'kay?
Okay provide proof that a no lifer will damage this game if they have an excessive amount of SP. Explain to this community and to CCP how no lifing has any detrmental effect on this game. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
268
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
CrotchGrab 360 wrote:I'm not sure if I'm for or against removing the SP cap because surely it will just mean people with AFK for longer?
They'll set up some bot and like mine over night. That's right, AFKing whilst you're asleep.
Or set an alarm every 20 minutes.
Not if you are reducing passive rewards. And again thats on CCP to come up with an Anti- AFK solution. Having a cap in place and arguing for its continued existence because of AFK is a bad rationale. However it is more likely to reduce AFK then increase it as people AFK because they dont want to miss out on their weekly ration of SP, if they knew they could get on and play when they felt like it and gain SP at an unrestricted pace they are more likely to put in time for 1 day and earn as much SP as they would AFKing for the 1-2 days it would take.
The only people who AFK now are people who dont want to play the game but dont want to miss out on SP, its a psychological rationale not a logical rationale. People will not 'feel" the need to AFK because they wont feel like they are being left behind with no way to ever "catch up"
Also FYI the only people who still AFK are people above 10-15M SP that are OCD obesseive about getting every last bit of SP and the new players. Everyone else either doesnt play or plays when they feel like it.
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MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
268
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Instead of removing the cap entirely they could just triple the SP gains up until the current 190k cap and then remove the 1k cap beyond that, so that you'll get 1SP for 1WP with no 1k maximum cap.
This would mean that you need very few matches to hit your weekly cap, while allowing a larger amount of SP to be obtained after hitting the cap.
We wouldn't see as many AFKers as we do now, since they will hit their cap faster and are still unable to get any SP beyond that cap without actually playing (although Nova Knife is confident that come 1.4 there will be no more AFK possible).
If AFK is killed in 1.4 while a cap still remains consider that the end of players logging on for Dust. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
270
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Posted - 2013.08.01 17:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:If AFK is killed in 1.4 while a cap still remains consider that the end of players logging on for Dust. Nova Knife is confident AFK is mostly impossible in 1.4, but if they did as I said and removed that 1k cap people would be able to get way more SP for Skirmish matches and slightly more than 1k for Ambush matches (but Ambush matches would also end faster than Skirmish matches).
Yea that was an option, number 5 i beleive in the original SP vote poll. To have no cap on the soft cap and all the whiny neckbeards who so desparately wanted to not be left behind and stomped by protobears cried it would be unfair. Now they all have protosuits and are desperately holding on to their crutch. Keeping new players artificially restrained in an FPS is simply dumb and poor game design.
Also the assinine schmucks who think MMO=Long tedious grinds are about as braindead as the clueless haps that think FPS=Twitch, low health, arenas(aka every moron who started playing FPS in the last decade and have no clue about the shooter genre beyond it). |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
275
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Posted - 2013.08.01 18:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rei Shepard wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:So been hammering this for months but it tends to fall out of sight because of all the balance issues. We've waited months for the Rollover system that was the intended iteration of the SP system. The current system is the temporary system in place until that rollover system could be implmented. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483247#post483247https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52633 What sad is this was posted in february and rollover was targeted for release on Uprising which wold have been the next major release. Now i get that there is a lot of other issues that are taking away from iterating a rollover system, or perhaps its been abandoned altogether. But lets face it the dev resources needed for rollover could be completely eliminated by removing the SP Cap outright. The intention of trying to limit the gap between casual and hardcore players is instead creating a larger vacuum between new and veteran players. The delay in time to get into fighting shape often leads to discouragement and most wont even take the time. Moreover given the low pool of players to begin with it creates stagnation at the top as the veterans have to wait for new competition to arise. IT has created almost a system of educational classes where each new crop of players is like a freshman class that is forever behind the seniors and when the seniors graduate(leave the game) the freshman move up but in the end all you have is a non-cycling conveyor of players with no retention at both the bottom and the top. So instead of growth in the playerbase all you are getting is a steady state and over time will result in decline. Getting rid of the SP CAP has far more benefits at the bottom then it has deleterious effects at the top. It really is time to just get rid of it already. Whats the benefit ? Instead of playing against guys with 20m sp, you are now being rolled by guys with 100m sp that have every build out there to counter your single build, they are swiss army knifes while your a blunt one. Have fun carving out those 100 millions of SP against the 24/7 folk, and by the time you got 100m sp, youll be either bored out of your mind, feel the need to grind to keep up to their now 150m sp or quit altogether after a combined team of 1b SP wipes the floor with you, oh and there 2 of those teams in your match. Yeah, i see the benefits clearly....
What game do you play? The only place where this remotely holds true is in Pubs. And yet again this is why this game will ocntinue to fail. If the impotence is to balance around pubs then the game will already do poorly. Moreover a team of 100M SP vs a Team of 20M SP has only a slight advantage over the 20M SP in that they could take any random 16 where as the team of 20M SP would still have to take a specific 16 to make sure they could balance roles and have counters for what they would face on the battlefield.
The omnisoldier 100M team could very likely take any 16 that are good and simply adapt on the fly to whatever they see. But the newer team would have to be more forward concious of what roles they have and wheter they are balanced as a team. In the end however a team that brings a balanced team of roles can tackle said omni team if they are of good skill AND most importantly there wont be a POWER GAP because both sides would have proto gear and full core skills on their primary roles.
20M in fact is enough to have 1 proto suits, full core skills and 2-4 Proto weapons with 1-2 at prof 5 AND a LLAV. Really what more do you need as an infantry player?
For vehicles players they would a lot more to have multiple vehicle specialization but they could certainly at 20M have a solid vehicle and a semi-solid infantry build to function as a support infantry player. |
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MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
276
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Posted - 2013.08.01 18:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You remove the SP cap i will be able to skill up into every class, suit, weapon, mods, equipment and still have enough left over to skill into what is to come
Essentially i dont care right now, if we have no cap i can get well ahead, if we all go passive then everyone at the same rate and no one gets ahead, if it stays the same we will have varying levels of players
And you can skill into the entire SP tree for all I care, it wont make an ounce of difference against a skilled team of balanced players who select their players to create an effective team composition.
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MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
278
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Posted - 2013.08.01 18:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You remove the SP cap i will be able to skill up into every class, suit, weapon, mods, equipment and still have enough left over to skill into what is to come
Essentially i dont care right now, if we have no cap i can get well ahead, if we all go passive then everyone at the same rate and no one gets ahead, if it stays the same we will have varying levels of players And you can skill into the entire SP tree for all I care, it wont make an ounce of difference against a skilled team of balanced players who select their players to create an effective team composition. But that 100mil player may skill into all the tree because he has more SP than he knows what to do with but may never touch half of the weapons and builds He could stay assault for example but because of the 100mil SP he can quickly change to whatever is needed where as the 20mil team need certain ppl to do that job 100mil team can just be as organized as the 20mil team problem is they have alot more options and change tactics on the fly to counter the enemy Overall it gives the 100mil players more freedom where as the lower SP players need to be careful with SP and make full use of what they have
So a new players has to be more thoughtful in how the engage and attack an higher level enemy in MMOs instaed of just mindlessly going at them button mashing and tab targeting their way to a win, shudder the thought 
Yes thats is kind of the point. But in the end the field is far more level then a proto user vs an advanced gear user. Moreover there are only so many counters to playstyles and many things can overlap. So yes if a team brings in a properly composed team of 20M SP players they can neutralize every threat a 100M SP team could throw at it.
An AR kills a Gallente Assualt as effectively as a Caldari Assault as effectively as Minmatar scout etc etc etc. The difference is neglible there.
A Proto SL can handle both Armor and Shield tanks when combined with another SL or FG or a few AV nades. That same AV team can tackle Dropships and LAVs of all racial varaints
Mass Drivers will make short work of all heavies, period.
A good sniper can keep all at bay for quite some time
Shotguns are effective against EVERYTHNG IN CQC
REmotes and Proxies add a bit more flair.
16 Players means thats a lot of variety on the field and a lot of cross variety coverage since counters in this game dont operate on a strict 1:1 relationship. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
279
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Posted - 2013.08.01 19:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rei Shepard wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You remove the SP cap i will be able to skill up into every class, suit, weapon, mods, equipment and still have enough left over to skill into what is to come
Essentially i dont care right now, if we have no cap i can get well ahead, if we all go passive then everyone at the same rate and no one gets ahead, if it stays the same we will have varying levels of players And you can skill into the entire SP tree for all I care, it wont make an ounce of difference against a skilled team of balanced players who select their players to create an effective team composition. But that 100mil player may skill into all the tree because he has more SP than he knows what to do with but may never touch half of the weapons and builds He could stay assault for example but because of the 100mil SP he can quickly change to whatever is needed where as the 20mil team need certain ppl to do that job 100mil team can just be as organized as the 20mil team problem is they have alot more options and change tactics on the fly to counter the enemy Overall it gives the 100mil players more freedom where as the lower SP players need to be careful with SP and make full use of what they have So a new players has to be more thoughtful in how the engage and attack an higher level enemy in MMOs instaed of just mindlessly going at them button mashing and tab targeting their way to a win, shudder the thought Yes thats is kind of the point. But in the end the field is far more level then a proto user vs an advanced gear user. Moreover there are only so many counters to playstyles and many things can overlap. So yes if a team brings in a properly composed team of 20M SP players they can neutralize every threat a 100M SP team could throw at it. An AR kills a Gallente Assualt as effectively as a Caldari Assault as effectively as Minmatar scout etc etc etc. The difference is neglible there. A Proto SL can handle both Armor and Shield tanks when combined with another SL or FG or a few AV nades. That same AV team can tackle Dropships and LAVs of all racial varaints Mass Drivers will make short work of all heavies, period. A good sniper can keep all at bay for quite some time Shotguns are effective against EVERYTHNG IN CQC REmotes and Proxies add a bit more flair. 16 Players means thats a lot of variety on the field and a lot of cross variety coverage since counters in this game dont operate on a strict 1:1 relationship. Still i only see Advantages being thrown around disguised as benefits, i still havent read a thing why its beneficial that you can now grind your experience like its a wow clone, lets say i am a new player and i can now grind 20m SP to catch" up to the brass of most people.... Will i even feel like doing all that grinding or will i go play a game thats feels less then work, more like you know a game ? to keep up with the gross of the playerbase? I play Eve and my Pilot has around 20m sp, do i feel like i need to grind out 130m sp to catch up with the guys that fly titans ? I dont because all we grind in Eve is ISK, ISK and more ISK, down here they "added" bonus sp just to cater a bit to the FPS crowd, they should have just done it like eve, passive and nothing else except ISK. The illusion of you catching up to the vets, is rather you burning out faster and if you can actually keep it up, at some point in time your camel is going to break its back eventually, for me it was the Aiming crap in 1.2, but i am still waiting for the game to pick up again, if this was a no-lifer 24/7 grind fest i would now be looking at catching up to at least 60.000 kills....yeah loads of benefits there ....
Are you daft, The benefit is you can get into proto gear sooner without any artficial time constraint. Currently it takes 4-6 Months to fully max a single specialty to proto plus core. That is the advantage to having no SP cap. The disadvantage everyone touts that it will create larger gaps among new and veteran player as no-lifers will coninue to grind and others will grind in ordre to keep up.
There is no need to keep up as soon as you max a single specialty. Anyone who "feels" otherwise is thinking and playing irrationally. Once you have the needed SP to max a character any additional SP gives minimal gains to your character in terms of POWER, versatility is increased but as Ive explained before versatility can be overcome with proper planning and having the proper composition of teammates.
Your EVE analogy doesnt hold water because a 20M SP charcater can be immediately effective in combat against 130M SP character when apart of a large enough fleet comp.They may not be the prize ship of the group but they can contribute. This possibility doesnt exist in Dust. Down here we grind nothing, FPSers dont care about lol Monopoly money. FPSers want to come in and fight without artificial constraints that end up protecting the weak. |
MlDDLE MANGEMENT
lMPurity
279
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Posted - 2013.08.01 19:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:There would still be grind, but its at your own pace.
I've seen so many threads over the months about this and it would be nice for a dev to update us on their plans, even if its to say that the current system will be with us for years!
me 2 |
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