DUST Search - The only respecs I would approve...

Chunky Munkey wrote:

Malkai Inos wrote:

Those are sound propositions but they already assumed that respecs are a worthwhile feature to begin with. Why?

The primary function of the skilltree is to give your choices weight. One can play it safe and follow a more generalist approach to be secured from potential changes in the meta, be it from balance or new content, or double down on one class and get max performance at the risk getting smacked in the likely event of changes.

True, participating in PC pretty much requires you to double down in order to be competitive but this largely due to the general notion that one has to double down in the first place. If players where to accept that respecs are not going to happen, barring a catastrophic event, they would in general be more cautious with their SP, reducing the overall performance pressure (less so in PC but more so everywhere else) so that the problems respecs are supposed to fix wouldn't be there in the first place.

Most of the issues that respecs are supposed to fix are either directly caused by the notion that we should have respecs in the frist place or really have nothing to do with how the SP system operates at all.

Everyone is looking for a solution to implement respecs without breaking the skillsystem and many other core concepts of the game yet most of the threads i've seen on this subject completely bypass the question wether or not the lack of respecs has distinct advantages that will be lost forever.

Respecs are worthwhile because they offer a change to gameplay. It's fine to say that we can skill into something else from scratch, but closed beta vets will tell you just how disheartening that starts to feel after the 3rd or 4th go.

Nobody is just accepting that we are inevitably going to get respecs, and the calls for respecs aren't at all based on such a belief.
Players just don't want to have to nerf their performance to see what else the game has to offer.

Do you not think a 6month cooldown gives choices weight? We're only 2months into the game and there are already people desperate for a respec.
The gravity of your decisions is important, but we have to weigh that against the tediom that comes from following the same people around with a rep tool for the summer.

You have to accept the possibility that the game you want Dust to be may well be a game with an average population of a few hundred.

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Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1030	Posted - 2013.07.31 14:57:00 - [1] - Quote Number 1: An item that costs a significant amount of aurum, released towards the end of the year, that has a 6month cooldown after use. I would put the cost at around 30-40k aurum. That may seem like a lot, but when you consider that we will have been playing the same role/s for months, a respec is effectively like a DLC pack offering new gameplay. I also consider that price to be fair because, given the choice between a month of boosters and a complete reassignment of roughly 15million sp, which would you go for? I'm guessing that respec ticket would be worth more to those who want it. I know many consider aurum respecs to be P2W, hopefully the 6month cooldown would mitigate this. For example: imagine if a 6 month cooldown started upon the release of a future equivalent of the CalLogi. 100s of tryhards would now be stuck with a nerfed suit for nearly 4 months. Nobody wants to pay for a FOTM when several months of nerfhammer awaits their balls afterwards. Now for the second kind of respec: New content. I do not believe that those who want, say, an Amarrian dropship, should have to gimp themselves either by skilling up something else in the meantime and losing sp they would spend in the future, or avoiding their intended role altogether by saving that sp up. Upon the release of new content, I'd be happy to see an optional respec of ONLY those skills that parrallel the new content. E.g. Scrambler & Assault rifle skills returned upon the release of their Minmatar & Caldari counterparts. That's it. The only two conditions in which I'd be comfortable seeing "respec" on a dev blog. I wanted to post this in response to those who think each & every rebalance warrants a respec, and to clarify my own position when I have to tell those people to GTFO & HTFU.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1033	Posted - 2013.07.31 14:59:00 - [2] - Quote TL:DR Aurum respec, yay. FOTM abuse, nay. New content respecs, yay. Post nerf respecs, nay.
Cosgar ParagonX 3550	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:01:00 - [3] - Quote How about this: 40k AUR and you have to give up 1/3 of your lifetime SP every time you respec.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1033	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:03:00 - [4] - Quote Cosgar wrote: How about this: 40k AUR and you have to give up 1/3 of your lifetime SP every time you respec. A third!? You's cold as ice!
falzar102 Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 5	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:04:00 - [5] - Quote So many tears. They taste like little salty drops of hurt. http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37535744.jpg Never going to happen. If you don't like, don't p2w.
Protocake JR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 332	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:08:00 - [6] - Quote This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this?
Ronan Elsword Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 80	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:09:00 - [7] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: TL:DR Aurum respec, yay. FOTM abuse, nay. New content respecs, yay. Post nerf respecs, nay. Why is everyone against giving respecs to people who's suits were completely changed. They lowered the CPU by 40, nobody cared about losing the shield extensions because we knew different skills were going to be coming out in the future for all Logies. Gallente Logi- 4 equipment slots with a bonus to PG/CPU on equipment Mini Logi- 4 Equipments slots Hacks really fast Amarr Logi- Has 3 Equipment slots but also a sidearm Caldari Logi- 3 Equipment slots... that's it, nothing special anymore.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 2536	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:12:00 - [8] - Quote New content is the only reason for a respec. Now give me my goddamn minmatar vehicles!
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 518	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:14:00 - [9] - Quote A wild alternative appears: Passive Redistribution. You can either accrue passive SP at a rate of 24k SP a day or have the SP siphoned out of a specific skill at a speed of 240k SP a day. Can't do both at once. In essence redistributing 600k SP from a skill would take 2 and a half days. In that time you lose out on 60k passive SP but can put those 540k SP 'gained' into other skills with far greater expedience. "Your choices matter" still holds true. It takes time to respec from your choices. You lose passive SP in the meantime. If you want to switch things up this enables you to do so far quicker.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1396	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:16:00 - [10] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this? Game is dying protoman. The game will be down to one game mode with a couple hundred players... and there will still have all the forum warrior kool aid drinkers still screaming HTFU at each other and that Dust is revolutionary and the greatest game in the world. There's not a lot of options yet... but close your wallet and get ready to move on. Its PC for me, I think PS4 for many others.

Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1036	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:16:00 - [11] - Quote falzar102 wrote: So many tears. They taste like little salty drops of hurt. http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37535744.jpg Never going to happen. If you don't like, don't p2w. What tears? I'm not a CalLogi, or a Flaylockker. In fact I posted this as a counter to those shedding the actual tears. Is this just your copy/paste post for anything with "respec" in the title?
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 828	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:17:00 - [12] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this? Because the tears the respec crowd shed are just so damn delicious. Mmmmmm yummy yummy tears
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 828	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:19:00 - [13] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: Protocake JR wrote: This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this? Game is dying protoman. The game will be down to one game mode with a couple hundred players... and there will still be all the forum warrior kool aid drinkers still screaming HTFU NO RESPECS at each other and that Dust is revolutionary and the greatest game in the world. There's not a lot of options yet... but close your wallet and get ready to move on. Its PC for me, I think PS4 for many others. See you in seven years when you come back and wish you'd never left.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1036	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:21:00 - [14] - Quote Ronan Elsword wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: TL:DR Aurum respec, yay. FOTM abuse, nay. New content respecs, yay. Post nerf respecs, nay. Why is everyone against giving respecs to people who's suits were completely changed. They lowered the CPU by 40, nobody cared about losing the shield extensions because we knew different skills were going to be coming out in the future for all Logies. Gallente Logi- 4 equipment slots with a bonus to PG/CPU on equipment Mini Logi- 4 Equipments slots Hacks really fast Amarr Logi- Has 3 Equipment slots but also a sidearm Caldari Logi- 3 Equipment slots... that's it, nothing special anymore. Because the suit was changed for the same reason people chose it: it was OP. The CalLogi's bonus is still centered on survivability, so it's intended role hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed is its ability to take on entire squads on its own.
Protocake JR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 336	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:22:00 - [15] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: falzar102 wrote: So many tears. They taste like little salty drops of hurt. http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37535744.jpg Never going to happen. If you don't like, don't p2w. What tears? I'm not a CalLogi, or a Flaylockker. In fact I posted this as a counter to those shedding the actual tears. Is this just your copy/paste post for anything with "respec" in the title? 98% of all arguments against respecs have been lame one-liners consisting of nothing but fanboyism and post-traumatic emotional diarrhea of when the Callogis apparently molested their private parts.
Protocake JR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 336	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:24:00 - [16] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Protocake JR wrote: This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this? Game is dying protoman. The game will be down to one game mode with a couple hundred players... and there will still be all the forum warrior kool aid drinkers still screaming HTFU NO RESPECS at each other and that Dust is revolutionary and the greatest game in the world. There's not a lot of options yet... but close your wallet and get ready to move on. Its PC for me, I think PS4 for many others. See you in seven years when you come back and wish you'd never left. lol textbook fanboyism right there. @zdub i'm not protoman. But everything else you said is spot on.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 828	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:28:00 - [17] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Protocake JR wrote: This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this? Game is dying protoman. The game will be down to one game mode with a couple hundred players... and there will still be all the forum warrior kool aid drinkers still screaming HTFU NO RESPECS at each other and that Dust is revolutionary and the greatest game in the world. There's not a lot of options yet... but close your wallet and get ready to move on. Its PC for me, I think PS4 for many others. See you in seven years when you come back and wish you'd never left. lol textbook fanboyism right there. @zdub i'm not protoman. But everything else you said is spot on. Call me a fanboy all you want, it doesn't change the fact that being able to play a video game doesn't make you an athlete (no matter how much your ego may scream otherwise)
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1036	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:29:00 - [18] - Quote Who said anything about athletics?
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 941	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:33:00 - [19] - Quote Those are sound propositions but they already assumed that respecs are a worthwhile feature to begin with. Why? The primary function of the skilltree is to give your choices weight. One can play it safe and follow a more generalist approach to be secured from potential changes in the meta, be it from balance or new content, or double down on one class and get max performance at the risk getting smacked in the likely event of changes. True, participating in PC pretty much requires you to double down in order to be competitive but this largely due to the general notion that one has to double down in the first place. If players where to accept that respecs are not going to happen, barring a catastrophic event, they would in general be more cautious with their SP, reducing the overall performance pressure (less so in PC but more so everywhere else) so that the problems respecs are supposed to fix wouldn't be there in the first place. Most of the issues that respecs are supposed to fix are either directly caused by the notion that we should have respecs in the frist place or really have nothing to do with how the SP system operates at all. Everyone is looking for a solution to implement respecs without breaking the skillsystem and many other core concepts of the game yet most of the threads i've seen on this subject completely bypass the question wether or not the lack of respecs has distinct advantages that will be lost forever.
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers EoN. 1397	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:36:00 - [20] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Protocake JR wrote: This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this? Game is dying protoman. The game will be down to one game mode with a couple hundred players... and there will still be all the forum warrior kool aid drinkers still screaming HTFU NO RESPECS at each other and that Dust is revolutionary and the greatest game in the world. There's not a lot of options yet... but close your wallet and get ready to move on. Its PC for me, I think PS4 for many others. See you in seven years when you come back and wish you'd never left. lol textbook fanboyism right there. @zdub i'm not protoman. But everything else you said is spot on. Oh haha, i figure protoman got forum banned and you were troll alt #XXXXX lol. yeah dude whatever... game is a broken joke. I haven't logged in in over a week now. Just waiting to see if they drop a respec in 1.4 at this point while I troll the forums at work.

DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5564	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:36:00 - [21] - Quote Gradual SP reallocation system for all is the only way.
MCEINSTEIN08 Defective by Design 16	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:49:00 - [22] - Quote Agree, make a DLC RESPEC, whom ever want to, can pay for it, lets say $4.99, but if your happy in your role, then don't. CCP makes money, and players are happy. Perfect world!
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1037	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:55:00 - [23] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Those are sound propositions but they already assumed that respecs are a worthwhile feature to begin with. Why? The primary function of the skilltree is to give your choices weight. One can play it safe and follow a more generalist approach to be secured from potential changes in the meta, be it from balance or new content, or double down on one class and get max performance at the risk getting smacked in the likely event of changes. True, participating in PC pretty much requires you to double down in order to be competitive but this largely due to the general notion that one has to double down in the first place. If players where to accept that respecs are not going to happen, barring a catastrophic event, they would in general be more cautious with their SP, reducing the overall performance pressure (less so in PC but more so everywhere else) so that the problems respecs are supposed to fix wouldn't be there in the first place. Most of the issues that respecs are supposed to fix are either directly caused by the notion that we should have respecs in the frist place or really have nothing to do with how the SP system operates at all. Everyone is looking for a solution to implement respecs without breaking the skillsystem and many other core concepts of the game yet most of the threads i've seen on this subject completely bypass the question wether or not the lack of respecs has distinct advantages that will be lost forever. Respecs are worthwhile because they offer a change to gameplay. It's fine to say that we can skill into something else from scratch, but closed beta vets will tell you just how disheartening that starts to feel after the 3rd or 4th go. Nobody is just accepting that we are inevitably going to get respecs, and the calls for respecs aren't at all based on such a belief. Players just don't want to have to nerf their performance to see what else the game has to offer. Do you not think a 6month cooldown gives choices weight? We're only 2months into the game and there are already people desperate for a respec. The gravity of your decisions is important, but we have to weigh that against the tediom that comes from following the same people around with a rep tool for the summer. You have to accept the possibility that the game you want Dust to be may well be a game with an average population of a few hundred.
KING SALASI MAJOR DISTRIBUTION 174	Posted - 2013.07.31 15:59:00 - [24] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: This is pretty much covers it. Respecs, if done correctly, won't lead to FOTM abuse. Respecs, if done correctly, won't affect your own personal lolchoices. Respecs, if done correctly, will help retain players. The point is, every problem you can think of, every argument you can come up with against respecs, has a viable solution. Why doesn't anybody get this? It doesn't matter anymore CCP got there intended audience Eve players that purchased PS3's to play Dust514 the expansion of EVE. They never intended to reach a new market. The PS3 community gave up on Dust. CCP never wanted a new market they can continue on the path of destruction. Next up merging of the servers. No respecs will be the death of Dust. Continue to tweak and mess everything up. The Eve players will deal with it, but your intended target will be long gone. Put Dust on PC where it belongs with Eve.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 829	Posted - 2013.07.31 16:00:00 - [25] - Quote The only way I'd support Respecs at all would be if everyone got one and they had a 12 month cooldown (similar to Remaps in Eve).
Protocake JR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 340	Posted - 2013.07.31 16:02:00 - [26] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: The only way I'd support Respecs at all would be if everyone got one and they had a 12 month cooldown (similar to Remaps in Eve). Why?
Bob Teller Red Star. EoN. 50	Posted - 2013.07.31 16:07:00 - [27] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: falzar102 wrote: So many tears. They taste like little salty drops of hurt. http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37535744.jpg Never going to happen. If you don't like, don't p2w. What tears? I'm not a CalLogi, or a Flaylockker. In fact I posted this as a counter to those shedding the actual tears. Is this just your copy/paste post for anything with "respec" in the title? 98% of all arguments against respecs have been lame one-liners consisting of nothing but fanboyism and post-traumatic emotional diarrhea of when the Callogis apparently molested their private parts. So you're saying that respecs would not encourage players to use op fotm knowing they are gonna get a respec?98% of all players asking for respec are using cal logi or flaylock right?Why should you get a respec?
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 829	Posted - 2013.07.31 16:14:00 - [28] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: The only way I'd support Respecs at all would be if everyone got one and they had a 12 month cooldown (similar to Remaps in Eve). Why? Gravity and Consistency. Make your choices wisely, don't spec into the obviously OP and then cry a river when it gets nerfed. Make your choices based on what is most fun, not what is the goto OP fit for all of the athlete wannabes.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1039	Posted - 2013.07.31 16:19:00 - [29] - Quote Bob Teller wrote: Protocake JR wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: falzar102 wrote: So many tears. They taste like little salty drops of hurt. http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/37535744.jpg Never going to happen. If you don't like, don't p2w. What tears? I'm not a CalLogi, or a Flaylockker. In fact I posted this as a counter to those shedding the actual tears. Is this just your copy/paste post for anything with "respec" in the title? 98% of all arguments against respecs have been lame one-liners consisting of nothing but fanboyism and post-traumatic emotional diarrhea of when the Callogis apparently molested their private parts. So you're saying that respecs would not encourage players to use op fotm knowing they are gonna get a respec?98% of all players asking for respec are using cal logi or flaylock right?Why should you get a respec? This was covered in my OP.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 941	Posted - 2013.07.31 16:22:00 - [30] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Those are sound propositions but they already assumed that respecs are a worthwhile feature to begin with. Why? The primary function of the skilltree is to give your choices weight. One can play it safe and follow a more generalist approach to be secured from potential changes in the meta, be it from balance or new content, or double down on one class and get max performance at the risk getting smacked in the likely event of changes. True, participating in PC pretty much requires you to double down in order to be competitive but this largely due to the general notion that one has to double down in the first place. If players where to accept that respecs are not going to happen, barring a catastrophic event, they would in general be more cautious with their SP, reducing the overall performance pressure (less so in PC but more so everywhere else) so that the problems respecs are supposed to fix wouldn't be there in the first place. Most of the issues that respecs are supposed to fix are either directly caused by the notion that we should have respecs in the frist place or really have nothing to do with how the SP system operates at all. Everyone is looking for a solution to implement respecs without breaking the skillsystem and many other core concepts of the game yet most of the threads i've seen on this subject completely bypass the question wether or not the lack of respecs has distinct advantages that will be lost forever. Respecs are worthwhile because they offer a change to gameplay. It's fine to say that we can skill into something else from scratch, but closed beta vets will tell you just how disheartening that starts to feel after the 3rd or 4th go. Nobody is just accepting that we are inevitably going to get respecs, and the calls for respecs aren't at all based on such a belief. Players just don't want to have to nerf their performance to see what else the game has to offer. Do you not think a 6month cooldown gives choices weight? We're only 2months into the game and there are already people desperate for a respec. The gravity of your decisions is important, but we have to weigh that against the tediom that comes from following the same people around with a rep tool for the summer. You have to accept the possibility that the game you want Dust to be may well be a game with an average population of a few hundred. Respecs offer a change of gameplay. An instant one that requires no effort other than the work you do for earning that AUR. This in principle lessens the "decisions have weight" concept more or less, depending on cooldowns or other rules by allowing you to circumvent fundamental game mechanics through external factors which is already a bad thing in my book. Yes, cooldowns preserve part of the weight. They also incidentally diminish the utility of respecs as (you already pointed this out) those in favor of respecs are already seemingly fed up with what they have after just under three months. This begs the question wether these respecs are of significant value after the first use. Six months are demonstrably enough to nearly max out any one role. Why bother then if i'm generally better off just saving up SP and having a viable secondary role long before the cooldown runs out? We can reduce the cooldown but this amplifies the negative consequences again. And i also have to accept the possibility that a thermonuclear war wipes out the tranquility server in london and i will never be able to play dust again. I cannot properly quantify either possibility so i see little value in basing my personal positions on such scenarios.



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