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semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 15:51:00 -
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calisk galern wrote:howard sanchez wrote:I am going to trust that CCP did not make changes to the flay lock pistol simply because everyone whined on the forums about how overpowered it was. I choose to believe that they listened to the community but also looked closely at hard data about kills and trends with damage distribution
And I will additionally hope and believe that CCP would use this method every time the whiney nerf begging vanilla loving horde comes a calling, Regnum.
And I expect that, when the actual data is reviewed, CCP will not see the kind of effectiveness at producing kills with mass drivers that they saw with flay locks. If that is not the case, if every time Regnum sees a mass driver in dust he dies...or whatever sky it is you are currently screaming about falling....then a nerf may be in order.
But I would like to see some data in addition to your whining dissatisfaction. what kill data, the top two weapons that get kills in this game are AR and sniper rifles, and AR's get easily double the kills of sniper rifles, all other weapons don't even come close. if you add up the kill feeds they will usually look like the following AR- 85 kills snipers 50 kills tanks/vehicles - 50 kills scrambler rifles - 45 kills mass driver - 30 kills everything else - 30-50 kills depending on how many heavies you have using forge guns
Really another idiot like buster actually exists!!!
Wow that actually surprises me since his idiocy was on a whole different level. Lets see here your data collection means nothing....all it means is that a majority of kills are done by ARs......and we all know ARs are the weapon the majority of players use. So by your same logic I can ask CCP to give me a weapon that will insta kill everyone and makes me invincible....but as long as I am the only one to use it then it wont be OP since it will only be a small percentage of the total kills. Seriously kids who think they know anything about statistical data gathering or interpretation make me laugh. They dont even know the first thing about gathering data and analysing said data. I am sorry but this type of idiocy will not go unchallenged.
Now to Regnum.......its true people want their crutch....I mean who couldnt want a MD that has a AOE of more than 8 meters that does 100 or more dmg per shot to armor. If you are slightly better at aiming you can use a weapon with a stronger AOE it just has an AOE of 5-6 meters. Honestly noobs need their crutches so they will come on here and argue/defend these weapons all day long. Personally balancing these weapons would be very easy. If you lower the AOE dmg then you probably nerf it way too much. I think the easiest/best way to balance is to change the AOE....AOE for the regular MD should be 3.0 (which gets boosted up to 3.75 when fully skilled) and the assault MD should be ~4.0 (with skills this would go up to 5.0). |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 16:36:00 -
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Buster Friently wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:calisk galern wrote:howard sanchez wrote:I am going to trust that CCP did not make changes to the flay lock pistol simply because everyone whined on the forums about how overpowered it was. I choose to believe that they listened to the community but also looked closely at hard data about kills and trends with damage distribution
And I will additionally hope and believe that CCP would use this method every time the whiney nerf begging vanilla loving horde comes a calling, Regnum.
And I expect that, when the actual data is reviewed, CCP will not see the kind of effectiveness at producing kills with mass drivers that they saw with flay locks. If that is not the case, if every time Regnum sees a mass driver in dust he dies...or whatever sky it is you are currently screaming about falling....then a nerf may be in order.
But I would like to see some data in addition to your whining dissatisfaction. what kill data, the top two weapons that get kills in this game are AR and sniper rifles, and AR's get easily double the kills of sniper rifles, all other weapons don't even come close. if you add up the kill feeds they will usually look like the following AR- 85 kills snipers 50 kills tanks/vehicles - 50 kills scrambler rifles - 45 kills mass driver - 30 kills everything else - 30-50 kills depending on how many heavies you have using forge guns Really another idiot like buster actually exists!!! Wow that actually surprises me since his idiocy was on a whole different level. Lets see here your data collection means nothing....all it means is that a majority of kills are done by ARs......and we all know ARs are the weapon the majority of players use. So by your same logic I can ask CCP to give me a weapon that will insta kill everyone and makes me invincible....but as long as I am the only one to use it then it wont be OP since it will only be a small percentage of the total kills. Seriously kids who think they know anything about statistical data gathering or interpretation make me laugh. They dont even know the first thing about gathering data and analysing said data. I am sorry but this type of idiocy will not go unchallenged. Now to Regnum.......its true people want their crutch....I mean who couldnt want a MD that has a AOE of more than 8 meters that does 100 or more dmg per shot to armor. If you are slightly better at aiming you can use a weapon with a stronger AOE it just has an AOE of 5-6 meters. Honestly noobs need their crutches so they will come on here and argue/defend these weapons all day long. Personally balancing these weapons would be very easy. If you lower the AOE dmg then you probably nerf it way too much. I think the easiest/best way to balance is to change the AOE....AOE for the regular MD should be 3.0 (which gets boosted up to 3.75 when fully skilled) and the assault MD should be ~4.0 (with skills this would go up to 5.0). Yeah, AR is the biggest crutch around. Also, more to the point, the Data that I and others have collected are the only meaningful information on these forums when it comes to a discussion about overusage. Make no mistake, the AR is the most overused weapon in the game, and CCP really needs to address this imbalance. There's no diversity in Dust, and that's very bad for Dust. The AR amounts, in pubs, to killing nearly as often as 11 of the remaining 13 weapons in game combined. The AR kills 10 times as often as it's close cousin, the scrambler rifle. Say what you want about me (I realize, unlike you, that I'm, not a member of the AR nerf brigade), but those are facts. Hail AR 514, hail king AR.
What you fail to understand is overuse does not mean unbalanced. You cannot force ppl to use certain weapons so that there is an equal difference in weaponry uses. What most "AR" users dont realize is that the scrambler rifle stats are all better than the AR stats. So why talk about "balancing" the AR when there is already another weapon that is definitely better than the AR? The AR is unbalanced is just chosen by more ppl to be used....this does not mean its OP it just means a majority of ppl use it.
LOL not a member of the AR nerf brigade.........your hilarious. yes thats why at every turn you talk about the OP AR. Sorry buddy but you cant "force" ppl to use different weapons. People gravitate towards the AR because they are comfortable with it. I know ppl who have only used the AR exclusively and they know there are weapons that are better for them but they still just use it because they are familiar with the AR and they will never switch. You cant force these ppl to switch without CCP taking over ppls accounts and making them spec into weapons they dont want to use. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 16:38:00 -
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ZDub 303 wrote:explosives just need a whole rework in this game.
Sure you can nerf flaylocks/mass drivers/nades into the ground so they aren't viable but in general explosives are not working like they should.
Most importantly we need better damage fall off throughout the blast radius. I don't know how it works now but we need damage falloff for explosives fit a fairly narrow gaussian distribution, and then tweak the maximum blast radius and peak damage on all explosives to compensate.
There should be no distinction between direct damage and splash on explosives.. just peak damage which happens at 0m from blast and then fall off as you move out of the range.
This is a big problem with flux nades too.
I coudl agree with this too.....the falloff of dmg should be logrithmic. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 17:24:00 -
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howard sanchez wrote:It is so easy for a dust player to jump on these forums and give passionate and experienced feedback about the game. But we need to stop deluding ourselves.
We do not understand much about how the game mechanics really work even though we play more than anyone else. We don't have any hard data.
Maybe scaling blast radius damage based on distance from impact would create such a demand on the limited resources of the game engine and PS3 that a decision was made to just have a flat direct and flat blast damage score. Or maybe not.
My point is that I would urge everyone posting what seems obvious, real and imperitive to youto consider that there is a metric butt ton of data that is really important that we don't see. So pleasetitrate your input and expectations accordingly.
Now, Wolfman and the CCP office has begun communicating with us Ina more open and transparent manner of late. If they would be willing to give insight to some hard data driven questions ( like a lot of suggestions posted here) then we can move the conversation away from emotionally charged rhetoric towards logical real decisions.
But that's up to CCP.
If this is the case then see my first post post on what should be done to the MD to compensate for this issue. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 17:42:00 -
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Buster Friently wrote:
The AR kills as often as 11 of the available 14 weapons combined. Combined. It doesn't matter if it's OP or not, it's hurting diversity, and hurting the game.
Also, this logic really makes no sense regarding people using the AR. It seems people migrated to the Flaylock at ok speeds before it was nerfed. If the AR was not OP, people would stop using it and migrate to other weapons, but they aren't. The overusage is the problem regardless of whether or not it fits your interpretation of OP.
Actually the problem is your logical reasoning is flawed. You want there to be more diversity in the weapons people use. So in an attempt to obtain the diversity desired you wish to uber nerf a weapon that is infact balanced in an effort to force ppl from using this weapon to using a different weapon thereby increasing the "diversity". Only this is perhaps one of the most insanely idiotic reasonings for nerfing something that anyone could think of. A player should not be "forced" to not use the weapon they want to use just to increase the diversity of the weaponry in this game. Even if you do this then how can you make people spec differently...what if they all specced into ASCR? Then your have ASCR 514 (according to you) and you back to the exact same place you were before with a vast majority of the kills being done by 1 weapon because a vast majority of players have chosen to use that weapon.
Simply put you cannot/should not be able to force diversity in a game where you can choose the weapon you use. Like I said there are better weapons already on the market for people to use and many people despite knowing that there is a better weapon will continue to use the "inferior" weapon because they are familiar with it....or like it......or like the looks of it...(whatever reason they personally have). People migrated to the flaylock because it was OP...and some people follow that trend. However even with the flaylock being OP you still didnt see a majority of people using it because they chose not to. Heck I chose not to spec into the flaylock because I knew it was a noob weapon and I didnt want to use it for that reason (i also rarely if ever use sidearms). You cannot dictate other players person preferences. Heck eventually we are supposed to have 4 different models of assault rifles (1 for every race) and yet you will still probably see a majority if players stick with the original plasma rifles even when there are better options out there.
BTW I am a ASCR user....before that an AR user. I moved to the ASCR because I saw that it was better than the AR in every single way. But I dont have an issue with ppl using the AR because thats what they choose to use. Maybe I just dont understand the mentality that is behind your thought process of "the devs need to make sure that the weapons usage is diverse so they should nerf/buff weapons accordingly to create a diverse weapon environment". Perhaps its just my libertarian mind coming through that refuses to allow me to accept such a gross example of freedom of choice being taken from a player.
Yes you gamer who is good at using sniper rifles...CCP has now designated you as a shotgunner...as such you can only use the shotgun now because we must maintain a diverse weapon usage and we see that there are just too many sniper rifles in use as such your name has come up as one of the players who will now be using the shotgun exclusively. Have a nice day
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semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 17:48:00 -
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Buster Friently wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Buster Friently wrote:
The AR kills as often as 11 of the available 14 weapons combined. Combined. It doesn't matter if it's OP or not, it's hurting diversity, and hurting the game.
Also, this logic really makes no sense regarding people using the AR. It seems people migrated to the Flaylock at ok speeds before it was nerfed. If the AR was not OP, people would stop using it and migrate to other weapons, but they aren't. The overusage is the problem regardless of whether or not it fits your interpretation of OP.
Actually the problem is your logical reasoning is flawed. You want there to be more diversity in the weapons people use. So in an attempt to obtain the diversity desired you wish to uber nerf a weapon that is infact balanced in an effort to force ppl from using this weapon to using a different weapon thereby increasing the "diversity". Only this is perhaps one of the most insanely idiotic reasonings for nerfing something that anyone could think of. A player should not be "forced" to not use the weapon they want to use just to increase the diversity of the weaponry in this game. Even if you do this then how can you make people spec differently...what if they all specced into ASCR? Then your have ASCR 514 (according to you) and you back to the exact same place you were before with a vast majority of the kills being done by 1 weapon because a vast majority of players have chosen to use that weapon. Simply put you cannot/should not be able to force diversity in a game where you can choose the weapon you use. Like I said there are better weapons already on the market for people to use and many people despite knowing that there is a better weapon will continue to use the "inferior" weapon because they are familiar with it....or like it......or like the looks of it...(whatever reason they personally have). People migrated to the flaylock because it was OP...and some people follow that trend. However even with the flaylock being OP you still didnt see a majority of people using it because they chose not to. Heck I chose not to spec into the flaylock because I knew it was a noob weapon and I didnt want to use it for that reason (i also rarely if ever use sidearms). You cannot dictate other players person preferences. Heck eventually we are supposed to have 4 different models of assault rifles (1 for every race) and yet you will still probably see a majority if players stick with the original plasma rifles even when there are better options out there. BTW I am a ASCR user....before that an AR user. I moved to the ASCR because I saw that it was better than the AR in every single way. But I dont have an issue with ppl using the AR because thats what they choose to use. Maybe I just dont understand the mentality that is behind your thought process of "the devs need to make sure that the weapons usage is diverse so they should nerf/buff weapons accordingly to create a diverse weapon environment". Perhaps its just my libertarian mind coming through that refuses to allow me to accept such a gross example of freedom of choice being taken from a player. Yes you gamer who is good at using sniper rifles...CCP has now designated you as a shotgunner...as such you can only use the shotgun now because we must maintain a diverse weapon usage and we see that there are just too many sniper rifles in use as such your name has come up as one of the players who will now be using the shotgun exclusively. Have a nice day Hell, I would take buffing the other weapons, or even not nerfing them in to the ground. The AR nerf brigade won't have that though, so the only thing left is to bring the AR down to the level of the rest of the weapons.
Sigh......yes because the ASCR isnt better than the AR.....
I swear debating with a wall is better than debating you...and least it gives intelligent replies in the echoes....... |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 18:05:00 -
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Buster Friently wrote:
The AR has no downsides really. That's the problem. Also, it is too good even against niche weapons that should beat it handily. This really isn't debatable, and the numbers show this. Of course we should expect more users to use ARs than other weapons due to comfort, but, the AR is used to kill nearly as much as 11 of the available 14 weapons combined. They're also used to kill 10 times more often than the Scrambler rifles. This overuse is ridiculous, and CCP most certainly can force use - just like they did with the Flaylocks.
CCP didnt force usage of the flaylocks.................your ramblings are becoming more inane by the moment.
I love your logic though....I need to petition CCP to make me a weapon that will kill everyone in a single shot and makes me invincible on the battlefield. As long as there are other weapons with higher kill counts than my OP weapon then my weapon is in fact not OP but balanced and helps "diversify" this games weaponry.
At this point I simply cannot even comprehend how you can think this as you have basically just stated that CCP should in fact force players to use a certain weapon so that there is plenty of weapon diversity. I guess we arent mercs anymore but we are infact standard military and should only use the racial items based on our racial choices right....that way weapon diversity can be upheld.
At this point i dont believe there is any way to help you understand how stastical reasoning and data analyses actually works and what conclusions you can reasonably draw from that analysis. You cant read numbers and understand what those numbers are actually telling you..instead you read numbers and you put your own conclusions into the fact presented attempting to use the facts to prove your conclusion despite the fact that they in no way shape or form come close to supporting your conclusion. A suggestion.....if you are still in school do not go into science, stastics, mathematical reasoning, or medicine. Your analysis skills are seriously lacking in your ability to determine what conclusion should be drawn based on the data given. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 18:25:00 -
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MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:
What numbers you asshat, are you citing your scrubby pubdata to me again. Please come back when you actually know how to gather legitimate data, till then take your pseudoscience and poor methodology back to community college where it belongs.
Give it up he obviously has no clue what he is talking about. I am not going to waste breath on someone who has no idea what they are even talking about. As far as we know the reason so many ppl use the AR may simply be because you can use officer weapons for those guns and there are not any officer weapons yet available for most other guns. If this is the case then the gun is not OP but CCP is just behind in their development of the game (i believe this is undeniably the case but for arguments sake.....). |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 18:51:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:MlDDLE MANGEMENT wrote:
What numbers you asshat, are you citing your scrubby pubdata to me again. Please come back when you actually know how to gather legitimate data, till then take your pseudoscience and poor methodology back to community college where it belongs.
Give it up he obviously has no clue what he is talking about. I am not going to waste breath on someone who has no idea what they are even talking about. As far as we know the reason so many ppl use the AR may simply be because you can use officer weapons for those guns and there are not any officer weapons yet available for most other guns. If this is the case then the gun is not OP but CCP is just behind in their development of the game (i believe this is undeniably the case but for arguments sake.....). Yeah that right there is what you call reaching. People use what work. A few will use what they like irrespective of its ability.
I am guessing hyperbole is not something your familiar with? The point is that this same conclusion can be reached using the same method that buster used in stating the AR is OP. And if my note is confusing I was talking specifically on the failure of CCP in fully releasing weapons. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 18:53:00 -
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Tectonic Fusion wrote:Buster Friently wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Buster Friently wrote:
The AR kills as often as 11 of the available 14 weapons combined. Combined. It doesn't matter if it's OP or not, it's hurting diversity, and hurting the game.
Also, this logic really makes no sense regarding people using the AR. It seems people migrated to the Flaylock at ok speeds before it was nerfed. If the AR was not OP, people would stop using it and migrate to other weapons, but they aren't. The overusage is the problem regardless of whether or not it fits your interpretation of OP.
Actually the problem is your logical reasoning is flawed. You want there to be more diversity in the weapons people use. So in an attempt to obtain the diversity desired you wish to uber nerf a weapon that is infact balanced in an effort to force ppl from using this weapon to using a different weapon thereby increasing the "diversity". Only this is perhaps one of the most insanely idiotic reasonings for nerfing something that anyone could think of. A player should not be "forced" to not use the weapon they want to use just to increase the diversity of the weaponry in this game. Even if you do this then how can you make people spec differently...what if they all specced into ASCR? Then your have ASCR 514 (according to you) and you back to the exact same place you were before with a vast majority of the kills being done by 1 weapon because a vast majority of players have chosen to use that weapon. Simply put you cannot/should not be able to force diversity in a game where you can choose the weapon you use. Like I said there are better weapons already on the market for people to use and many people despite knowing that there is a better weapon will continue to use the "inferior" weapon because they are familiar with it....or like it......or like the looks of it...(whatever reason they personally have). People migrated to the flaylock because it was OP...and some people follow that trend. However even with the flaylock being OP you still didnt see a majority of people using it because they chose not to. Heck I chose not to spec into the flaylock because I knew it was a noob weapon and I didnt want to use it for that reason (i also rarely if ever use sidearms). You cannot dictate other players person preferences. Heck eventually we are supposed to have 4 different models of assault rifles (1 for every race) and yet you will still probably see a majority if players stick with the original plasma rifles even when there are better options out there. BTW I am a ASCR user....before that an AR user. I moved to the ASCR because I saw that it was better than the AR in every single way. But I dont have an issue with ppl using the AR because thats what they choose to use. Maybe I just dont understand the mentality that is behind your thought process of "the devs need to make sure that the weapons usage is diverse so they should nerf/buff weapons accordingly to create a diverse weapon environment". Perhaps its just my libertarian mind coming through that refuses to allow me to accept such a gross example of freedom of choice being taken from a player. Yes you gamer who is good at using sniper rifles...CCP has now designated you as a shotgunner...as such you can only use the shotgun now because we must maintain a diverse weapon usage and we see that there are just too many sniper rifles in use as such your name has come up as one of the players who will now be using the shotgun exclusively. Have a nice day Hell, I would take buffing the other weapons, or even not nerfing them in to the ground. The AR nerf brigade won't have that though, so the only thing left is to bring the AR down to the level of the rest of the weapons. Also, for the record, the Flaylock wasn't OP, nor is the MD. The Flaylock simply did it's job - CQC killing, and it was better at it than the AR, sooo... The AR nerf brigade couldn't handle that. The only thing OP about the Flaylock is that, it seems, sidearms aren't supposed to be useful and somebody named the Flaylock a sidearm. ...it was nerfed because it was doing better than the AR... it's a sidearm... not a primary.
I would replace your "AR" with "light weapon" as now he will argue...see AR users have to make sure anything that approaches the AR in stat in killing must be nerfed. |
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semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.07.31 19:18:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Hyperbole doesnt translate through the ether without italics or   etc. - I wasnt in your head when you wrote it. You guys on the other side have no data either so its all just speculation and flawed extrapolation and bias (the real sense of the word, not meant in a derogatory manner)
This is actually the point we are trying to make. Although at the same time calling the AR OP when the ASCR is better in everyway (I know because I use it) just seems a little silly. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.08.01 13:35:00 -
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Why skill into it up to lvl 3? I can mess all you kids up with it on lvl 1 easy.....why? Cause I dont even have to hit close to you to do dmg. And as a nade throwing master MD will be easymode.. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.08.01 14:27:00 -
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Charlotte O'Dell wrote:The AR has no overheat, works shooting up or downhill, has longer range than most weapons, has a tight spread, high ROF, effective vs both shields and armor, and can solo anything that isn't a vehicle. This gun does not require skill to use the scrambler rifle requires skill. How do I know? I use a standard AR and hit everything. I use a scrambler, and not so much. My aim is god awful, so if I can get kills with it, it does not take much skill. The AR is just as easy as the MD.
You seriously think the ASCR has overheat? Yea so if I fire 1.5 mags without stopping then i overheat......that is 108 shots before overheating. Any person is ret@arded if they overheat the ASCR on accident. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.08.01 15:34:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Why do people that play PC and use it as a badge of honour QQ They should be the ones living by HTFU and adapt or die but yet they make threads and pacts and whatever else to tone down weapons instead of finding ways to beat them. Now I think the MD can be a bit scary but I am a scout and having to dodge that many shots can be an issue if there isnt much cover close but if I am in a group and can flank or if I have a bit of high ground I am fine. I asked those jokers why a group of AR's couldnt keep their distance and defeat Flaylock users and all you heard was silence. IF PC is so hard and you guys are so good then defeat them, dont run crying.
I love it how you guys act like regnum does not run by you and just completely roflstomp all of you with ease. Just because he can roflstomp you this doesnt mean the weapon your using is balanced. It has too much AOE for the dmg given (because AOE of 8+ meters is so balanced )...so either the dmg need to be decreased or the AOE needs to be decreased (decreased AOE would be better than dmg IMO).
Just because there are people who could roflstomp the flaylock users that doesnt mean the flaylock was balanced. Noobs need to step back and stop talking when people who actually know a thing or two about FPS balance start talking. |
semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.08.01 15:59:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Daxxis KANNAH wrote:Why do people that play PC and use it as a badge of honour QQ They should be the ones living by HTFU and adapt or die but yet they make threads and pacts and whatever else to tone down weapons instead of finding ways to beat them. Now I think the MD can be a bit scary but I am a scout and having to dodge that many shots can be an issue if there isnt much cover close but if I am in a group and can flank or if I have a bit of high ground I am fine. I asked those jokers why a group of AR's couldnt keep their distance and defeat Flaylock users and all you heard was silence. IF PC is so hard and you guys are so good then defeat them, dont run crying. I love it how you guys act like regnum does not run by you and just completely roflstomp all of you with ease. Just because he can roflstomp you this doesnt mean the weapon your using is balanced. It has too much AOE for the dmg given (because AOE of 8+ meters is so balanced )...so either the dmg need to be decreased or the AOE needs to be decreased (decreased AOE would be better than dmg IMO). Just because there are people who could roflstomp the flaylock users that doesnt mean the flaylock was balanced. Noobs need to step back and stop talking when people who actually know a thing or two about FPS balance start talking. Yawn - here you come again. I never claimed the Flaylock didnt need balancing and I am not sure yet if the MD needs to be balanced again. Let me ask a question - If you turn down the AOE (damage or radius) then what is the point of the weapon? And once again the arguments against the Flaylock werent really addressed other than taking away much of its killing power and why is that - becuase many ran into its range instead of fighting outside of it. Now you can blame that on CCP's poor render of models and lag etc or you can blame it on people just wanting to run into a killing distance they feel comfortable with and dont want to change the way they play. Back to the topic of calling people out - if you guys were that good you wouldnt be playing Dust anyway so stop the we are PC we are ultimate rubbish. Carry on discussing the MD.
Actually I only play a couple times a week anymore and thats only with friends....this game is just bad.
That being said I agree with Zdub however I also dont think this change would ever be done as CCP would take the easy way out and the easiest way to balance the MD is to lower the AOE...
As far as the AOE yea......88 (over 100 actual dmg to armor) AOE dmg in a larger than 8 meter radius is so balanced
BTW lrn2read ....... when someone gives you a hypothetical situation to show the same logic your using to defend the MD on a different weapon that is KNOWN to be OP then its just that....a hypethetical situation that is meant to illustrate a point. You have obviously never actually debated anyone because hypotheticals are essential to pointing out flaws in an argument (which is why it is so heavily used in philosophy).
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semperfi1999
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Posted - 2013.08.01 16:29:00 -
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Cosgar wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Actually I only play a couple times a week anymore and thats only with friends....this game is just bad. That being said I agree with Zdub however I also dont think this change would ever be done as CCP would take the easy way out and the easiest way to balance the MD is to lower the AOE... As far as the AOE yea......88 (over 100 actual dmg to armor) AOE dmg in a larger than 8 meter radius is so balanced BTW lrn2read ....... when someone gives you a hypothetical situation to show the same logic your using to defend the MD on a different weapon that is KNOWN to be OP then its just that....a hypethetical situation that is meant to illustrate a point. You have obviously never actually debated anyone because hypotheticals are essential to pointing out flaws in an argument (which is why it is so heavily used in philosophy). I'd be okay with Zdub's proposed changes, I even made a topic on it a while back. Base damage and radius would need some adjustments to compensate but if it cuts down on the whining I'll take the hit. The problem with hypotheticals is that it's the only argument being used and not enough facts to back it up. The MD already has terrible DPS compared to an AR, virtually no ammo, it's a CPU/PG hog that makes you sacrifice tank, requires trajectory, and it's the 3rd slowest reload speed for a light weapon. There's too many double standards attached to the weapon as well because of how it operates compared to something like an AR like using it makes you cheap or something. It's a niche weapon with a ton of drawbacks and for people to be good with it to the point that someone can make a troll thread that goes 18 pages, someone was good enough to **** off ol' ReGnYuM along with everyone else claiming such a gimped weapon is OP. Whoever that masshole was, I hope I run into him/her so they can give me some pointers.
Wish you could have seen Tiel play with the MD back before he stopped playing Dust.......
He 1 shot adv heavies with direct hits or 2 shotted them with AOE. He used entire clips on the bowl and would get 12 kills easy. He one shot any militia suit with explosive radius only........
Also regarding area denial........5.0 radius for a fully upgraded MD is still area denial...just not such a large area that you can miss by 7 meters and still hit the person.
Honestly this probably wouldnt even be an issue if there were actual objects you could duck behind...however this game by a large is all open fields. Very little cover anywhere....I can find more cover on blood gultch (Halo CE) than some of these maps have. |
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Posted - 2013.08.01 18:10:00 -
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Justin Tymes wrote:Nerfed against shields with a slow reload time, If you can't out DPS an Assault MD, you need to get better.
Just a suggestion....dont tell people who are better than you are that they need to get better.,.....you just end up sounding like an idiot.
Fortunately for the MDs there is an amazing weapon that cant be thrown to instantly wipe all shields from all units.....its not affected by objects that are between the nade and the target.....they also still have the old 2 second timer that the locus nades used to have.....
This plus the MDs 8+ meter radius to do 100+ dmg to armor is just rediculous. |
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Posted - 2013.08.01 18:39:00 -
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Knightshade Belladonna wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Nerfed against shields with a slow reload time, If you can't out DPS an Assault MD, you need to get better. Just a suggestion....dont tell people who are better than you are that they need to get better.,.....you just end up sounding like an idiot. Fortunately for the MDs there is an amazing weapon that cant be thrown to instantly wipe all shields from all units.....its not affected by objects that are between the nade and the target.....they also still have the old 2 second timer that the locus nades used to have..... This plus the MDs 8+ meter radius to do 100+ dmg to armor is just rediculous. Can't go in game to look.. but do MD really have 8+m splash? I thought it was only like 4m with the proto +25% with lvl 5? I don't really look to deep into stats, so I'm clueless as to what bonuses and all that jazz really do for each gun.. I just pick it up, use it.. if I like it it and get atleast 1 kill i'll use it again lol.
The assault MD with the +25% bonus gets a 8+ meter radius (if I remember my calculations correctly).
Actually since I was asked I checked and redid my calculations...I was right its over 8 but better yet it gets a 9 meter radius
http://wiki.dust514.info/index.php?title=Mass_Driver |
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Posted - 2013.08.01 19:27:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:But does under a 100 dmg and thats 30% to shields so 58 dmg per shot unless they are using mods which still wont get it up to a 100.
If you get through shields then 108 dmg to armor per shot.
AR - 34 dmg per bullet - 10 bullets out of a 48 clip - 374 dmg to shields
If I'm doing it wrong let me know (no troll).
You forgot that there is a %15 dmg increase as well plus anyone who is good at building an MD suit would put at least 1 complex dmg mod on the MD this puts the dmgs up to 125.69 vs armor (114.26 if no dmg mod). This is enough dmg to armor to almost 1 shot most suits....2 shots does 229 dmg to armor (very few suits other than heavies have armor that is this high. And you can get that type of dmg in a 9 meter radius with no fall off damage. Honestly if there was fall off dmg there probably would not be a big issue with the MD. But since there isnt and you can get 114+ dmg in a 9 meter radius....yes this needs to be reduced. |
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Posted - 2013.08.05 15:01:00 -
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So after all the ppl arguing that the MD is balanced and perfectly fine...............I decided to use it myself just so that I can verify what I already thought regarding the MD......let the lols begin
ROFL
Whoever says they have problems killing ppl with this gun just suck...period...I mean seriously they absolutely suck hardcore. This is the easiest weapon I have ever used in Dust. The only weapons in any game I have used that was easier is the rocket launcher on Halo CE....
shields?????? Forget them....I ran flux/MD combo and found that I rarely needed the flux anyway....although I would use it when I came across multiple enemies when it was just 1 enemy I would rarely use it if ever. I only put 1 lvl into the MD and I rofl stomp all protosuits other than caldari assaults. By rofl stomp I mean 3-4 shots easy to kill anyone else....heavies sometimes take a couple more shots due to higher HP.
Only downside...I do have to watch my ammo some ...but honestly I rarely even had an issue here. I run with hives normally so that was no different. I can kill most in about 3 shots anyway so I have enough ammo to kill 7-8 ppl on average before needing to obtain more ammo and thats if I meet them 1 v 1....I found 2-3 v 1s meant nothing to me....2 v 1 meant I was killing 2 ppl at the same time.
Reload cancel work pretty well with this gun....so I can cut down the reload to be roughly the same as the AR. Direct hits with this gun are just roflpwnage. How could anyone argue that 6 meters is needed (normal MD gets this with the skill bonus once prototype is reached)...I almost never miss with a 4 meter standard radius.
One I start shooting someone I almost never get shot by that person again as they cant hit me through the smoke and their aim gets jerked from the explosion. I just strafe in front of them and put down rounds without having to aim....Its actually nice I can concentrate more on my strafing than my aim so this has also improved my survivability. Large groups of ppl...with the AR/ASCR you have to pick you battles and fight 1 at a time or you will take some serious dmg from the multiple enemies........not with the MD though...just strafe in and out of cover shooting every time your out of cover and watch the mutiple enemies fail to do anything significant to hurt you and watch your last couple found gain you double kills (if they stay there).
It is harder to chase with the MD it better to get them to come to you but I found running and gunning to still be pretty effective...but a defense position is just nigh unstoppable with the MD.
Obviously higher positions are better (just like they are for any weapon) but for the MD it just becomes laughable.......its not just easy its pathetically easy. Shooting up against someone ... can be done I did it plently myself but I admit it is harder to shoot up with the MD than it is with most every other weapon.
So to all who say the MD is hard to use and they use a prototype MD.......I just laugh at you. The standard MD is enough to completely wreck almost all prototype suits no matter how they build their suit. I am actually considering not using the flux and just using the M1 nade....it does really good dmg to shields with the bonus of possibly doing dmg to armor as well.
MD is definitely the noobiest weapon in this game. To say the AOE is needed for "area denial" because this isnt a 1 v 1 gun but an "area denial" weapon...hate to break it to you but its does both.....extremely well. 1 v 1 the enemy is screwed...large group of enemies...no worries my MD will do just as much dmg to you all as it would to someone in the 1 v 1 situation.
So bring it noob MD users. All of your supposed arguments about this weapon are invalid unless you just plain suck at this game. |
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Posted - 2013.08.05 16:35:00 -
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:So after all the ppl arguing that the MD is balanced and perfectly fine...............I decided to use it myself just so that I can verify what I already thought regarding the MD......let the lols begin
ROFL
Whoever says they have problems killing ppl with this gun just suck...period...I mean seriously they absolutely suck hardcore. This is the easiest weapon I have ever used in Dust. The only weapons in any game I have used that was easier is the rocket launcher on Halo CE....
shields?????? Forget them....I ran flux/MD combo and found that I rarely needed the flux anyway....although I would use it when I came across multiple enemies when it was just 1 enemy I would rarely use it if ever. I only put 1 lvl into the MD and I rofl stomp all protosuits other than caldari assaults. By rofl stomp I mean 3-4 shots easy to kill anyone else....heavies sometimes take a couple more shots due to higher HP.
Only downside...I do have to watch my ammo some ...but honestly I rarely even had an issue here. I run with hives normally so that was no different. I can kill most in about 3 shots anyway so I have enough ammo to kill 7-8 ppl on average before needing to obtain more ammo and thats if I meet them 1 v 1....I found 2-3 v 1s meant nothing to me....2 v 1 meant I was killing 2 ppl at the same time.
Reload cancel work pretty well with this gun....so I can cut down the reload to be roughly the same as the AR. Direct hits with this gun are just roflpwnage. How could anyone argue that 6 meters is needed (normal MD gets this with the skill bonus once prototype is reached)...I almost never miss with a 4 meter standard radius.
One I start shooting someone I almost never get shot by that person again as they cant hit me through the smoke and their aim gets jerked from the explosion. I just strafe in front of them and put down rounds without having to aim....Its actually nice I can concentrate more on my strafing than my aim so this has also improved my survivability. Large groups of ppl...with the AR/ASCR you have to pick you battles and fight 1 at a time or you will take some serious dmg from the multiple enemies........not with the MD though...just strafe in and out of cover shooting every time your out of cover and watch the mutiple enemies fail to do anything significant to hurt you and watch your last couple found gain you double kills (if they stay there).
It is harder to chase with the MD it better to get them to come to you but I found running and gunning to still be pretty effective...but a defense position is just nigh unstoppable with the MD.
Obviously higher positions are better (just like they are for any weapon) but for the MD it just becomes laughable.......its not just easy its pathetically easy. Shooting up against someone ... can be done I did it plently myself but I admit it is harder to shoot up with the MD than it is with most every other weapon.
So to all who say the MD is hard to use and they use a prototype MD.......I just laugh at you. The standard MD is enough to completely wreck almost all prototype suits no matter how they build their suit. I am actually considering not using the flux and just using the M1 nade....it does really good dmg to shields with the bonus of possibly doing dmg to armor as well.
MD is definitely the noobiest weapon in this game. To say the AOE is needed for "area denial" because this isnt a 1 v 1 gun but an "area denial" weapon...hate to break it to you but its does both.....extremely well. 1 v 1 the enemy is screwed...large group of enemies...no worries my MD will do just as much dmg to you all as it would to someone in the 1 v 1 situation.
So bring it noob MD users. All of your supposed arguments about this weapon are invalid unless you just plain suck at this game. Inb4 Buster's But but AR is the most common weapon on the killfeed so its killing weapon diversity. The simple answer is the Dust playerbase is just god awful at shooters, they are much more keen at tabtarget games like EVE with autopilot and aiming bots so of course they need the Mass Driver, its also the favorite weapon of the Devs in the office and now you know why.
I actually feel a little sorry for the enemy when I see 3 of them grouped up and then I rush them with the MD and kill them all...... |
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:24:00 -
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FLAYLOCK Steve wrote:Is this still really going on? LOL Pathetic let me guess. CCP will nerf the MD AGAIN and make it UNUSEABLE AGAIN. It will be GÇ£fixedGÇ¥ AGAIN but worse than it is NOW than people WILL STILL CRY and call OP just because it CAN KILL YOU. WhatGÇÖs next? Nova Knifers beware you will be next on the fail CCP nerf train. This is really annoying me so much, everyone crying about OP just because they get killed by a weapon. ItGÇÖs pathetic as hell, leave the weapons the way they are. The way I see it is that people want to make to every other weapon less effective then there weapon. And at this rate everything that kills somebody will get nerfed. Nova knife, Mele, IGÇÖve even read that milita AV gear is GÇ£OPGÇ¥. Seriously leave the fking game alone. Quit acting like kids just because you got out smarted, and I swear if people say GÇ£it isnGÇÖt fairGÇ¥ they are so fking dumb. Is it fair when a tank spawns in a ambush full of people who didnGÇÖt have their AV suit on? No, is it OP no. Is it OP when people set uplinks above roofs? No, is it OP no, itGÇÖs called tactics. Is it fair when a scout suit gets killed by just about anything in the game and really have nothing to show for it? No, is it UP yea lol. So really quit crying, itGÇÖs pathetic. Most of the time when I use my Mass Driver people run in the same spot. IGÇÖve also been owned by Mass Drivers but mainly because insteads of moving in one direction I basically dance in the same spot when in fact I HAD TIME to GTFO. But ofcoruse you want the game fair right? Than make every gun have the range the AR, make every gun have the same skill requirements of a AR. Make every gun have the same ammo count of a AR. Maybe just maybe people wonGÇÖt cry OP. Seriously HTFU quit acting like bytches just because a gun did better in that given situation. People act like their ArGÇÖs are shotguns and they rush in like dumbazzes lol pretty sad. But eh I guess I'm OP because you think you have the right to call me OP. But IMO, the AR still holds a far greater advantage than the MD. I own a AR at lvl 4, I own these weapons as followed:
Assault Rifle level 4
Mass Driver level 3
Forge Gun level 4
Heavy Machine Gun level 4
Nova Knife level 2
Scrambler Rifle level 1
And everything else is from the elite pack, so you canGÇÖt say one gun is OP and expect me to keep quite because I use most of the common guns in Dust. I know them; I know theyGÇÖre advantages and disadvantages. Seriously, with mass driver you have to be more alert. You have to think about several things such as: Elevation, surroundings, range and positioning of the ARC. It isnGÇÖt a straight shot gun like the AR. I donGÇÖt care what these people say; they think itGÇÖs easier to use a Mass Driver than a Assault rifle? Pff, most of them are trolls who say that. Anyway no matter what people will bytch and CPP fail devs will go for it. Im tired of it and IGÇÖm not gonna spend anymore money on this game just because itGÇÖs pointless using anything that is not a Assault Rifle. Shyt itGÇÖs even more pointless to spec into anything other than the Assault Rifle. Why? Because everything is GÇ£OPGÇ¥, if it kills you and itGÇÖs not an Assault rifle itGÇÖs obviously OP according to half of this fail community filled with useless dumbfks. And I was going to buy a other elite pack but honestly IGÇÖm having my doubts about this game and the community itself. Anyway let the troll begin I guess?
LOL sad kid...try again. Your argument (ever heard of the enter button?? you should use it) is bad. If you think the MD is balanced then I laugh at you. It roflstomps proto suits at standard lvl....I dont even want to know how badly it would rofl stomp at proto lvl. The MD needs to be rebalanced.
Someone mentioned lowering the clip count to 4 rounds before reloading and keeping everything else the same. This would work....the other option is to lower the AOE. 4 meters is definitely plenty of AOE for this weapon that is so easy to use. So the standard MD should probably start out at 3.25 meters and once fully specced it would be 4.0 meters. The Assault would then start at 4.25 and fully specced would have 5.3 meters AOE. For those who say the Assault MD isnt used.....you have apparently not played much PC....because PC has alot of proto Assault MDs in use right now. Why? Super awesome 9 frickin meter AOE. No need to aim hit the moon and you damage all the enemies anyway. |
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Posted - 2013.08.05 20:18:00 -
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LittleCuteBunny wrote:Just played one match today...
Holy Batsh*t, Batman! The killfeed was going crazy on this things
lol
Didnt you hear?? They arent OP DUH!!!  |
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Posted - 2013.08.06 13:46:00 -
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FLAYLOCK Steve wrote:Oh please this coming from a Assault Rifle scrub. Sad kid? You and half of brainless assault rifle scrubs are the ones trying to nerf everything in the damn game. Maybe I should start using my nova knife fit and wait for bytches like you cry OP. Because nothing in the game is supposed to kill you. Just ask CCP to make the assault rifle even more OP. **** MAYBE MAKE IT SO IT CAN 1 HIT KILL A TANK.. PATHETIC. You keep ignoring all the drawbacks of this weapon. Now can you think of draw backs from a assault rifle? None really. Mass driver has many draw backs, but again you're to dumb to rethink your attack plan. I own mass driver users with just a assault rifle by keeping my range and staying away from tight spots. He only has 6 shots, and a long reload. You can easily pick him off. Please get good.
I love this....AR scrub you called me?? Oh wait do I use the AR???? UM no I dont....I have no SP into a single tier of the AR. I actually used the MD or do you also fail at reading comprehension? If you dont then please review my post in the prior page and note that I used the MD quite extensively with only 1 point into it....and proto suits are a joke when you use that weapon. 3-4 shot kills for a majority of the proto suits (not including when I get a direct hit which isnt as hard as people make it out to be). 4 meter radius is just a joke. Any idiot who runs out in the open with a mass driver can be killed by the noobiest of noobs. Its like bragging that you killed a shotgun user 60 meters away and they didnt even hurt you.....no really...a shotgun didnt hurt you from that distance . You are taking a huge leap if you think I am claiming something is imbalanced because it kills me all the time. I faceroll most every MD user I come across....this however does not mean that the gun has no issues that need to be addressed. According to MD users the MD is supposed to be area denial....but it works extremely well for run and gunning.
I also enjoy scrubs who I easily roflstomp in game telling me to "get good". |
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