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Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
713
   |
Posted - 2013.07.28 11:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
The current SP system gives us some pros and cons:
Pros
- Game life.
- Versatility in match.
But the cons aren't worth the pros right now (imo):
Cons
- Player SP gap is anti-growth for the game.
- Versatility brings frustration.
It should change.
Time to elaborate.
Think about it.
Many of us wanted to flat out quit, but our time invested in our character keeps us coming back. I think this is a pro. We like the added versatility that raising SP gives. (Game life)
Yet, at the same time, those are the VERY things causing us our frustrations.
You get mad, you want to quit, but then you can't, because it would be wasted effort and time. Meanwhile, the noob that you just pubstomped hasn't invested any time at all, and finds playing against you pointless and frustrating, and HE decides not to waste effort and time. He leaves the game. (Player SP gap is anti-growth for the game.)
Now you're really invested in your character. You go into a match, and start owning face with your tank. In a little under a minute, the ENTIRE enemy team is descending upon you with proto-swarms. You say, "fine", and decide to snipe, you are now getting sniped. You say, "fine", and decide to run assault... when suddenly an enemy tank descends upon you, and you start getting sniped. You say, "fine", and switch to proto swarms... then enemy assaults start pursuing you. (Versatility in match.)
Even though your team still won... you couldn't help but notice how much money you lost, how much cursing you did, and how unhappy and frustrated you still were. (Versatility brings frustration.)
What's the answer?
This is why I propose a new SP system idea.
A Fluid SP system would work like this...
Whatever the total amount of SP is that would allow one to get:
1 Dropsuit to racial Proto
1 Weapon to Proto w/Proficiency
1 Dropsuit Upgrade Branch maxed out.
That's what the maximum acquirable SP would be. However, you would be allowed to reallocate this SP before every match.
So if you want, you could evenly apply that SP across all the Standard level skills, to still get general versatility, but you'd never have the bonuses and power of specialization. Specialization vs. Versatility.
Say you're a specialized sniper. A newbie assault with MLT gear stumbles upon you, and kills you. He no longer has to worry about you raging and going proto assault on him, and abusing him for the rest of a match. Why? Because for THAT MATCH, you specialized for using a sniper rifle.
Say you're a specialized tanker. You go into a match, and start raping face, but happily only two guys on the enemy team allocated some points into swarms. So you got a much easier chance dealing with only 2 AVers, instead of an entire team of them. For THAT MATCH.
Let's say you think you're clever... and you decide to spread your SP wide across everything , so you can be more versatile.
Congratulations your gear advantage is gone, and you are now TECHNICALLY weak enough for a newbie to kill.
Let's say you think you're REALLY clever... and you decide to go ADV Assault, with ADV nades and maybe an LAV. The noob with his limited SP now only needs to allocate enough into an ADV heavy with a standard FG to take you down. Or maybe an ADV sniper.
In turn, you can still organize squads with each person doing a specialization, in order to reward team work.
With this system, frustrations with natural counters won't just continually mount during one battle.
Newbros will have a much higher success chance when they try to exploit our weaknesses, because the more we try to be versatile, the more it brings us closer to their gear level.
Game life will now come from "theory craft" and acquisition of isk, as opposed to grinding and the acquisition of SP (this in no way means that CCP is exempt from needing to provide PvP, PvE, and PvPvE content).
Acquisition of SP is VERY critical to the survival of the game as it currently is. My idea would almost certainly kill it for some people. Which would be fine, because the game is NOT EVE. If a game is only surviving, because the few people that bothered to play it just don't want to lose the effort and time they already put into it... that's a very unhealthy place for a game to be. They should love the game because they are working on a project IN the game, or they're trying something new IN the game... or they like the game's setting when they do PvE, etc.
It should never be, "I've bothered to play this long, I may as well just keep at it." Because the attachment to that SP will only grow.
Guess what, that growing SP is also a part of the problem why noobs are having a hard time, AND why we have a hard time with each other in matches.
Those good, fun matches are always the ones where everyone is doing their best with their preferred role. Win or Lose. I think this system can enhance that.
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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
1130
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Posted - 2013.07.28 13:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
This idea has good intention at heart but completely ruins any idea of permanance that could exist in this game and I see that as a pretty core part of the Dust514 premise. |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
891
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 14:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:This idea has good intention at heart but completely ruins any idea of permanance that could exist in this game and I see that as a pretty core part of the Dust514 premise. I second that. It's a well written, thought out idea but the permanence of the skillsystem is a worthwhile part of the game including some of the downsides you pointed out. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
713
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Posted - 2013.07.28 15:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well, I hope the things that makes it worthwhile, isn't what ends up killing it. :( |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
403
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 15:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Django Quik wrote:This idea has good intention at heart but completely ruins any idea of permanance that could exist in this game and I see that as a pretty core part of the Dust514 premise. I second that. It's a well written, thought out idea but the permanence of the skillsystem is a worthwhile part of the game including some of the downsides you pointed out.
Indeed. Good idea, but doesn't fit here. Sorry bro, nice thought though. |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
403
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 15:10:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Well, I hope the things that makes it worthwhile, isn't what ends up killing it. :(
Meh, dumb matchmaking. Its the matchmaking that's kill the games, less the SP system. |
LongLostLust
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
97
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Posted - 2013.07.28 15:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is a good idea, but not for the whole game. What about a game mode where you allocate a set amount of sp and then play a match. The sp you earn goes to your overall character, not adding to the set amount for this game mode. This is a great idea on multiple fronts. It levels the playing field. It itself would be a form of matchmaking knowing everyone as the same sp amount. It would be a way to test new weapons without dumping sp.
What would be cool is if we actually stayed on the same teams and played multiple matches. This way we learn what the other team wants to spec into and are able to try and counter in the next match. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
715
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Posted - 2013.07.28 16:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
LongLostLust wrote:This is a good idea, but not for the whole game. What about a game mode where you allocate a set amount of sp and then play a match. The sp you earn goes to your overall character, not adding to the set amount for this game mode. This is a great idea on multiple fronts. It levels the playing field. It itself would be a form of matchmaking knowing everyone as the same sp amount. It would be a way to test new weapons without dumping sp.
What would be cool is if we actually stayed on the same teams and played multiple matches. This way we learn what the other team wants to spec into and are able to try and counter in the next match.
What you mean? Like in the upcoming Arena Mode?
Or like in a Training/Practice Simulator? |
K1sm3t H
Valor Tactical Operations
Immortal Coalition of New-Eden
1
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Posted - 2013.07.28 16:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think this is a great idea, especially while we wait for CCP to fix the balance, mechanics, and release content. Have all the SP you are earning be saved and implement a permanent skill system once they have a more complete game. I would also make the new player academy work off a similar principle, maybe with only enough for ADV gear. This would allow them to really get a feel for different gameplay styles and let them make an informed choice about how they want to spec once they leave. Nothing is worse than blowing your first couple of million SP because you don't know what you are doing (unless you blew 15 mill on shield tanks, that's worse, sorry guys)
However, as awesome of an idea as you have, the dust community is pretty much ruled by the hardcore eve crossover guys who rage at the idea of respecs or any form of skill allocation that makes someone adaptable without having spent every waking hour playing. "HTFU, adapt or die, serves you right FOTM, etc." so we'll see how it goes.
+1 though, well thought out with valid points, just hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears. |
K1sm3t H
Valor Tactical Operations
Immortal Coalition of New-Eden
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 17:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would also add that you could save preset SP choices just like fittings for ease of use, e.g. tank fit, logi fit, AV fit, etc. |
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LongLostLust
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
97
|
Posted - 2013.07.28 21:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:
What you mean? Like in the upcoming Arena Mode?
Or like in a Training/Practice Simulator?
Not sure what the Arena Mode is.
Simply any current game mode we have now but before joining the match everyone has ? 5 million SP to allocate. This would make everyone on an equal level. No pubstomping. The only pubstomping would be if one guy specs tank and no one else does and no one has AV either then that tank would dominate. But this is why I say we play multiple games with the same people so the next match everyone gets to respend their 5 million SP and can now roll tank, AV or opt to stay with what they had the last round.
Also this would be a great way to try out different suits, weapons, fitting styles, before actually spending your earned SP. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
1147
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Posted - 2013.07.28 22:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
K1sm3t H wrote:However, as awesome of an idea as you have, the dust community is pretty much ruled by the hardcore eve crossover guys who rage at the idea of respecs or any form of skill allocation that makes someone adaptable without having spent every waking hour playing. "HTFU, adapt or die, serves you right FOTM, etc." so we'll see how it goes.
It has nothing to do with hardcore eve guys or anything of that ilk; one of the central premises of this game is that your choices matter and have permanent consequences - if you take that away, this game loses a large part of what makes it unique and different from every other run of the mill shooter already out there.
FYI - never played Eve in my life. |
K1sm3t H
Valor Tactical Operations
Immortal Coalition of New-Eden
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.29 03:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
My apologies if I offended, my comments were not directed towards anyone who posted already in this thread. I was referencing the guys who troll every SP respec thread with "NO MOAR RESPEC" and don't provide a real reason or any logical feedback other than EVE doesn't allow for it.
I agree that having your choices matter is important, however as a more casual player it is extremely frustrating when something you have invested everything in suddenly sucks because of an imbalance issue. I simply don't have the time to grind SP to be able to adjust to these issues. Example: Beginning near the start of open beta, I used to roll heavy only until the issues with the TAC AR and I couldn't run my slow butt between cover fast enough to not get laid out because my HMG only fired 15 m, so I started allocating SP into logi stuff to be useful on the open maps. Fast forward a few months and I can finally do both fairly well (for pub matches at least). That really sucks, and it isn't fun. CCP is working hard to fix this stuff, but it is EXTREMELY slow coming out with little communication about the future and I think a lot of players who don't have the ability to play all the time get really turned off by that kind of thing. I think that the player base would grow much faster if the game wasn't so punishing (especially to new players) without even having a majority of the promised content and constant imbalances/fixes needing to happen, and more players = better for everyone. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
EoN.
721
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Posted - 2013.07.29 07:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
LongLostLust wrote:Jathniel wrote:
What you mean? Like in the upcoming Arena Mode?
Or like in a Training/Practice Simulator?
Not sure what the Arena Mode is.
Here:
http://www.destructoid.com/ccp-confident-about-dust-514-s-five-year-future-255455.phtml
About 14 paragraphs down.
Mention of a "Gladiator" game mode.
But I appreciate it your thoughts.
The system I propose would only work if there was enough content to give satisfaction and "permanence" to the game outside of PvP and character stat development. |
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