DUST Search - Suggestion to CCP Tiericide and a Reformatting of Drop Suits

Hagintora wrote:

Django Quik wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

I can understand that but you don't get noticeable bonuses over newer players in more successful/ established shooters such a Battlefield or Call of Duty.

Your expansion/ development is horizontal rather than vertical if you take my meaning, this means there essentially aren't really as many balancing issues. Even in planetside all progression is horizontal.

While under this model you will still be progressing through dropsuits to get the bonuses you want, and the weapons you want, you wont have the issue of having players able to bypass general skill in the game by using to tier gear like we do now.

E.G- on one 7 Million SP toon I have Cal Assault and Duvilles... I hate and suck with Assault Rfiles but that doesn't matter because my gear is generally superior to most player gear..... however on this toon I am good with Scrambler and Laser weaponry.... but more oft than not that doesn't matter because people have better gear than me.

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you; horizontal progression would be more sensible. I'm just predicting that the RPG crowd would be annoyed that there is too little vertical progression.

Well in most RPG games, skill isn't really needed. Everyone relies on their equipment to carry them through engagements. Look at World of Warcraft. If I play that game all the way to level 90 (I think is top level right now), and then start a brand new character at level one, I'm going to have the same skill level as every other level 90 character in the game (give or take), but I will lose every single engagement I have with any one other a certain level because I don't have the equipment necessary to survive. In an FPS game, skill is the measure of every player, while equipment is used mainly for accentuating your particular gameplay style. Dust needs both, but should fall more heavily on the "playstyle" side than the equipment side.

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True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 862	Posted - 2013.07.28 09:42:00 - [1] - Quote This is a lengthy suggestion that I believe has some merit though whether it does or not depends on how the player base responds to this suggestion. Whether or not it is flamed, accepted, supported..... I'm bored and though I might share some thoughts about the game. Issue- Balancing Basically the iteration of Dust that we have not is a game with three types of suit frames, or course Light, Medium, and Heavy and while they do adequately summarise the general battlefield roles that most FPS games allow us to use I feel they do not adequately live up to EVE's variation of ships and ship roles. These suit frames are based on the generic designs of the empires that provide them. Again while this is adequate I do not believe they fit the general corporate mercenary tone this game would suggest it would have, if anything it makes me believe that we as mercs are beholden to the major empires that form the general structure of EVE. Also these suits are then divided based of racial combat styles, and beyond that into three tiers. Now while the racial groups do a brilliant job of getting all players to a standard baseline in terms of EHP what does skew the balance between players is the allocation of slots, high, low, equipment, etc. I have seen countless argument of how to adequately balance these layouts, from reducing specific suits slot allocations, to increasing them, to total re distribution of said slot.... however the only argument that ever rang true with me was the general standardisation of the suits. By this I mean the lay out of slots is standardised per suit. E.G- Gallente Assault gets 2 High and 3 Low, Caldari gets 4 High and 1 Low, Minmatar gets 3 High and 2 Low, and Amarr get 1 High and 4 Low. Across all suits the Assault suit has 5 Slots. Therefore there is a relative balance between what the suits can and cannot equip. Suggestion- Tiericde My suggestion on how to balance the suit types is similar to the general tiericide that EVE players went through in order to get the balance and role specific suit types that EVE ships seem to fill. Presently we have three tiers. Standard, Advanced, and Prototype. Each scales in terms of effectiveness, from lower damage standard gear, to the upper level prototype gear which puts standard gear to shame. This in of itself creates a huge imbalance between players. Long time players are rewarded to being just that. They get suits with man more slots, and much more PG and CPU to play around with effectively allowing them to reach EHP values of 2-3 times more than a standard player, as well as equipping themselves with weaponry that can and will decimate the lower tier players, not to mention the experience they have natural accrued. One common complaint that this game suffers from is that newer players will find it very difficult to deal with such high tier players utterly decimating them simply because there is no effective matchmaking yet implemented in the game. My suggestion is tiericide. While CCP wants to boast of huge number of possibilities players can achieve in their load outs and skill distribution the argument that the standardisation of suits to balance them seems to resonate with me the most. By this I mean that in order for the balance issues to be lessened there should be a general standardising of suits in terms of slot allocation, PG and CPU between all suits of their class. Most of you will say. "Oh No Adamance you would ruin the flavour of each races dropsuits!" I THINK NOT and heres why. If we standardised dropsuit slot lay outs at 4 slots total for Scouts and Heavies, 5 for Assualts, and Six for Logi's it would limit the maximum EHP of the suits. This means that while a Logistics suit may not have 8 to 9 slot and 800+ at the upper levels of prototype a logi would have the maximum 6 slots across all the tier ( of which under this suggestion there will only be two). So here we solve one issue that separates high level players from low level players by opening up those slots for new entrance mercs. So while its true they cannot necessarily match the levels of low time players in terms of Tech 1 and Tech 2 gear (the suggested tiers. more of this later) they can achieve a level of competitiveness off of the bat. E.G- Tech 1 equipment is the Advanced level gear at a baseline, for example Adv Shield Extenders, Regulators, Rechargers are remade to Tech 1 Shield Extenders, Regulators, and Rechargers suitably named befitting the sci fi setting An Example of this model in action- Rather than have our current Militia, Standard, Advanced, and Protoype separating players we instead have two tiers Tech 1, this being the equivalent of Advanced level gear with the standardised slot lay outs and PG CPU bases suited for differing variations of tech 1 and 2 modules, and tech 2 being equivalent to prototype gear and represents the best gear open to us mercs. The only differenced between Tech 1 and Tech 2 gear are specialisated bonuses that reflect the suits corporate producer and perhaps to some extent the racial alignment of the corporation responsible for its production. (More on this later) Thus we essentially have a general balance in terms of equipment type as seen in EVE (OH NO NOT EVE) where we can see Tech 1 as the galactic base line of technology and Tech 2 as the prototype level of equipment thus what we see here, while keeping in the spirit of Dusts Play to achieve rewards scheme we narrow the gap between the tiers by essentially having - Same slot layouts across Tech 1 and 2 - General Similarities between stats - Different PG and CPU values to represent the ability for tech 2 to fit similar technology - Same EHP values which we already have. More to come on Corporate Suits, and how they fit the scene of Dust better than the current empire suits, and a way CCP can implement them without drastic need of change to the game.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 862	Posted - 2013.07.28 09:42:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 862	Posted - 2013.07.28 09:43:00 - [3] - Quote Reserved
Django Quik R.I.f.t 1120	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:04:00 - [4] - Quote I think I understand this system and quite like it (if I do understand properly). Basically all levels of suits would have the same number of slots (though different layouts for different races?) but each level would have different CPU/PG, allowing better modules/weapons to be fitted? Honestly, though, unless I'm missing something, this doesn't seem much different to the tiered system we currently have - T2 suits would still be much better than T1 because of the fittings capabilities.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 862	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:09:00 - [5] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I think I understand this system and quite like it (if I do understand properly). Basically all levels of suits would have the same number of slots (though different layouts for different races?) but each level would have different CPU/PG, allowing better modules/weapons to be fitted? Honestly, though, unless I'm missing something, this doesn't seem much different to the tiered system we currently have - T2 suits would still be much better than T1 because of the fittings capabilities. Tech 2 suit under this model would only see benefits over tech 1 suits in tems of a slight boost of CPU PG and a minimally affecting bonus. basically all Tech 2 would do is have the tech 1 drosuits gear to a more specific battlefield role. Force Recon- Faster Flankers Assault- Current Assault Role Heavy Assault- Stronger Frontline Trooper.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 1121	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:18:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Django Quik wrote: I think I understand this system and quite like it (if I do understand properly). Basically all levels of suits would have the same number of slots (though different layouts for different races?) but each level would have different CPU/PG, allowing better modules/weapons to be fitted? Honestly, though, unless I'm missing something, this doesn't seem much different to the tiered system we currently have - T2 suits would still be much better than T1 because of the fittings capabilities. Tech 2 suit under this model would only see benefits over tech 1 suits in tems of a slight boost of CPU PG and a minimally affecting bonus. basically all Tech 2 would do is have the tech 1 drosuits gear to a more specific battlefield role. Force Recon- Faster Flankers Assault- Current Assault Role Heavy Assault- Stronger Frontline Trooper. So, just more specialised but not technically much better? Okay, that's something I can support . However, I think many players will feel like they should be getting something technically better for the time/effort they've put in.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 863	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:32:00 - [7] - Quote Django Quik wrote: True Adamance wrote: Django Quik wrote: I think I understand this system and quite like it (if I do understand properly). Basically all levels of suits would have the same number of slots (though different layouts for different races?) but each level would have different CPU/PG, allowing better modules/weapons to be fitted? Honestly, though, unless I'm missing something, this doesn't seem much different to the tiered system we currently have - T2 suits would still be much better than T1 because of the fittings capabilities. Tech 2 suit under this model would only see benefits over tech 1 suits in tems of a slight boost of CPU PG and a minimally affecting bonus. basically all Tech 2 would do is have the tech 1 drosuits gear to a more specific battlefield role. Force Recon- Faster Flankers Assault- Current Assault Role Heavy Assault- Stronger Frontline Trooper. So, just more specialised but not technically much better? Okay, that's something I can support . However, I think many players will feel like they should be getting something technically better for the time/effort they've put in. I can understand that but you don't get noticeable bonuses over newer players in more successful/ established shooters such a Battlefield or Call of Duty. Your expansion/ development is horizontal rather than vertical if you take my meaning, this means there essentially aren't really as many balancing issues. Even in planetside all progression is horizontal. While under this model you will still be progressing through dropsuits to get the bonuses you want, and the weapons you want, you wont have the issue of having players able to bypass general skill in the game by using to tier gear like we do now. E.G- on one 7 Million SP toon I have Cal Assault and Duvilles... I hate and suck with Assault Rfiles but that doesn't matter because my gear is generally superior to most player gear..... however on this toon I am good with Scrambler and Laser weaponry.... but more oft than not that doesn't matter because people have better gear than me.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 349	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:36:00 - [8] - Quote It sounds good but it's a little overly complicated. Why not just standardise suit slots now in the tiers of militia, standard, advanced and prototype? Then we get racial bonuses for speccing into the correct dropsuit roles, either assault or logistics.
Django Quik R.I.f.t 1122	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:37:00 - [9] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I can understand that but you don't get noticeable bonuses over newer players in more successful/ established shooters such a Battlefield or Call of Duty. Your expansion/ development is horizontal rather than vertical if you take my meaning, this means there essentially aren't really as many balancing issues. Even in planetside all progression is horizontal. While under this model you will still be progressing through dropsuits to get the bonuses you want, and the weapons you want, you wont have the issue of having players able to bypass general skill in the game by using to tier gear like we do now. E.G- on one 7 Million SP toon I have Cal Assault and Duvilles... I hate and suck with Assault Rfiles but that doesn't matter because my gear is generally superior to most player gear..... however on this toon I am good with Scrambler and Laser weaponry.... but more oft than not that doesn't matter because people have better gear than me. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you; horizontal progression would be more sensible. I'm just predicting that the RPG crowd would be annoyed that there is too little vertical progression.
Vulcanus Lightbringer Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:48:00 - [10] - Quote I agree with you, one thing though: Why would a Logistics suit have more modules than an Assault suit?

True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 863	Posted - 2013.07.28 10:54:00 - [11] - Quote Vulcanus Lightbringer wrote: I agree with you, one thing though: Why would a Logistics suit have more modules than an Assault suit? I would suggest the introduction of Medium Slots but I feel they have not place in Dust. In anycase it was either keep modules the same as assault.... or keep them at one more than the assault.
Vulcanus Lightbringer Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:15:00 - [12] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Vulcanus Lightbringer wrote: I agree with you, one thing though: Why would a Logistics suit have more modules than an Assault suit? I would suggest the introduction of Medium Slots but I feel they have not place in Dust. In anycase it was either keep modules the same as assault.... or keep them at one more than the assault. Sure, but why? Why would people use Assault if they can get everything (and more) from Logistics?
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 865	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:19:00 - [13] - Quote RINON114 wrote: It sounds good but it's a little overly complicated. Why not just standardise suit slots now in the tiers of militia, standard, advanced and prototype? Then we get racial bonuses for speccing into the correct dropsuit roles, either assault or logistics. Why even bother with having MLT, STD, ADV, and PRO variants?
Haerr Molon Labe. League of Infamy 21	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:19:00 - [14] - Quote I want this to happen. Good stuff +1
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 865	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:20:00 - [15] - Quote Vulcanus Lightbringer wrote: True Adamance wrote: Vulcanus Lightbringer wrote: I agree with you, one thing though: Why would a Logistics suit have more modules than an Assault suit? I would suggest the introduction of Medium Slots but I feel they have not place in Dust. In anycase it was either keep modules the same as assault.... or keep them at one more than the assault. Sure, but why? Why would people use Assault if they can get everything (and more) from Logistics? It suppose so.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 142	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:27:00 - [16] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Vulcanus Lightbringer wrote: I agree with you, one thing though: Why would a Logistics suit have more modules than an Assault suit? I would suggest the introduction of Medium Slots but I feel they have not place in Dust. In anycase it was either keep modules the same as assault.... or keep them at one more than the assault. My first thought on this is keep the slot numbers the same, but just add role bonuses for the CPU/PG requirements for specific mods. So Assault Suits would have a lower CPU/PG costs for certain weapons as well as Damage Mods, etc, and Logistics would have lower CPU/PG costs for certain weapons as well as Equipment. Not perfect I know, but it's just off the top of my head.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 865	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:33:00 - [17] - Quote Hagintora wrote: True Adamance wrote: Vulcanus Lightbringer wrote: I agree with you, one thing though: Why would a Logistics suit have more modules than an Assault suit? I would suggest the introduction of Medium Slots but I feel they have not place in Dust. In anycase it was either keep modules the same as assault.... or keep them at one more than the assault. My first thought on this is keep the slot numbers the same, but just add role bonuses for the CPU/PG requirements for specific mods. So Assault Suits would have a lower CPU/PG costs for certain weapons as well as Damage Mods, etc, and Logistics would have lower CPU/PG costs for certain weapons as well as Equipment. Not perfect I know, but it's just off the top of my head. Entirely possible.... though I think adding role bonuses to modules is a bit odd. What Im suggesting is using the EVE mode of balancing equipment... however toning it down. T2 pushes players towards specific roles while T1 essentially lets you do anything until you figure out what you want to do.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 142	Posted - 2013.07.28 11:43:00 - [18] - Quote Django Quik wrote: True Adamance wrote: I can understand that but you don't get noticeable bonuses over newer players in more successful/ established shooters such a Battlefield or Call of Duty. Your expansion/ development is horizontal rather than vertical if you take my meaning, this means there essentially aren't really as many balancing issues. Even in planetside all progression is horizontal. While under this model you will still be progressing through dropsuits to get the bonuses you want, and the weapons you want, you wont have the issue of having players able to bypass general skill in the game by using to tier gear like we do now. E.G- on one 7 Million SP toon I have Cal Assault and Duvilles... I hate and suck with Assault Rfiles but that doesn't matter because my gear is generally superior to most player gear..... however on this toon I am good with Scrambler and Laser weaponry.... but more oft than not that doesn't matter because people have better gear than me. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you; horizontal progression would be more sensible. I'm just predicting that the RPG crowd would be annoyed that there is too little vertical progression. Well in most RPG games, skill isn't really needed. Everyone relies on their equipment to carry them through engagements. Look at World of Warcraft. If I play that game all the way to level 90 (I think is top level right now), and then start a brand new character at level one, I'm going to have the same skill level as every other level 90 character in the game (give or take), but I will lose every single engagement I have with any one other a certain level because I don't have the equipment necessary to survive. In an FPS game, skill is the measure of every player, while equipment is used mainly for accentuating your particular gameplay style. Dust needs both, but should fall more heavily on the "playstyle" side than the equipment side.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 713	Posted - 2013.07.28 12:04:00 - [19] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Django Quik wrote: True Adamance wrote: I can understand that but you don't get noticeable bonuses over newer players in more successful/ established shooters such a Battlefield or Call of Duty. Your expansion/ development is horizontal rather than vertical if you take my meaning, this means there essentially aren't really as many balancing issues. Even in planetside all progression is horizontal. While under this model you will still be progressing through dropsuits to get the bonuses you want, and the weapons you want, you wont have the issue of having players able to bypass general skill in the game by using to tier gear like we do now. E.G- on one 7 Million SP toon I have Cal Assault and Duvilles... I hate and suck with Assault Rfiles but that doesn't matter because my gear is generally superior to most player gear..... however on this toon I am good with Scrambler and Laser weaponry.... but more oft than not that doesn't matter because people have better gear than me. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you; horizontal progression would be more sensible. I'm just predicting that the RPG crowd would be annoyed that there is too little vertical progression. Well in most RPG games, skill isn't really needed. Everyone relies on their equipment to carry them through engagements. Look at World of Warcraft. If I play that game all the way to level 90 (I think is top level right now), and then start a brand new character at level one, I'm going to have the same skill level as every other level 90 character in the game (give or take), but I will lose every single engagement I have with any one other a certain level because I don't have the equipment necessary to survive. In an FPS game, skill is the measure of every player, while equipment is used mainly for accentuating your particular gameplay style. Dust needs both, but should fall more heavily on the "playstyle" side than the equipment side. I think that's what his suggestion does. If the bonuses per suit level were much more significant, it would defeat the purpose... I think it's better than my idea. Drafted up a concept but made no specific numbers.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 142	Posted - 2013.07.28 12:21:00 - [20] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Entirely possible.... though I think adding role bonuses to modules is a bit odd. What Im suggesting is using the EVE mode of balancing equipment... however toning it down. T2 pushes players towards specific roles while T1 essentially lets you do anything until you figure out what you want to do. Then why not start with just Basic Light, Basic Medium, and Basic Heavy? Then go Light Medium, Medium Medium, and Heavy Medium, followed by Light Assault, Medium Assault, Heavy Assault?

Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 142	Posted - 2013.07.28 12:49:00 - [21] - Quote Another idea to add to yours since your standardizing slot layouts. Why not have Mods offer the same bonuses from Basic to Complex, but lower the CPU/PG requirements instead? So a Basic Damage Mod gives the same bonus as a Complex Damage Mod, but has a lower CPU/PG count, thereby allowing you to use/stack more mods, but decreasing the gap between new players and vets.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 869	Posted - 2013.07.28 20:20:00 - [22] - Quote Django Quik wrote: True Adamance wrote: I can understand that but you don't get noticeable bonuses over newer players in more successful/ established shooters such a Battlefield or Call of Duty. Your expansion/ development is horizontal rather than vertical if you take my meaning, this means there essentially aren't really as many balancing issues. Even in planetside all progression is horizontal. While under this model you will still be progressing through dropsuits to get the bonuses you want, and the weapons you want, you wont have the issue of having players able to bypass general skill in the game by using to tier gear like we do now. E.G- on one 7 Million SP toon I have Cal Assault and Duvilles... I hate and suck with Assault Rfiles but that doesn't matter because my gear is generally superior to most player gear..... however on this toon I am good with Scrambler and Laser weaponry.... but more oft than not that doesn't matter because people have better gear than me. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you; horizontal progression would be more sensible. I'm just predicting that the RPG crowd would be annoyed that there is too little vertical progression. I am from that RPG crowd.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 869	Posted - 2013.07.28 20:22:00 - [23] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Another idea to add to yours since your standardizing slot layouts. Why not have Mods offer the same bonuses from Basic to Complex, but lower the CPU/PG requirements instead? So a Basic Damage Mod gives the same bonus as a Complex Damage Mod, but has a lower CPU/PG count, thereby allowing you to use/stack more mods, but decreasing the gap between new players and vets. This is a thing in EVE too which I would suggest. Modules vary in percentages or points modified across the Tech 1 and 2 layers but compensate more or less from the reduction or addition of such across the baseline by having appropriated PG and CPU costs.
low genius the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance 228	Posted - 2013.07.28 20:31:00 - [24] - Quote i obviously didn't read all that. there aren't proper tiers yet, so saying 'tiericide' is silly.
True Adamance PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 869	Posted - 2013.07.28 20:47:00 - [25] - Quote low genius wrote: i obviously didn't read all that. there aren't proper tiers yet, so saying 'tiericide' is silly. There are tiers MLT, STD, ADV, and PRO and the differences between the two are vast and unforgiving.


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