DUST Search - Announcement:Dev Blog: Fine-tune Aiming and Controls

Master Jaraiya wrote:

T3chnomanc3r wrote:

Not having full control over stick is BIG issue, even if mouse is not considered. Frankly mouse & move should stay no matter if they fix joystick, I don't give a crap about perceived advantages BUT do care if CCP doesn't wise up & expose more direct tweaking of input PC style.

This clearly shows your own bias toward Kb/M, which is fine when you are talking PC gaming. This, however is a console game.

It is not perceived advantages, but very real and apparent advantages. The instant I am facing an opponent using Kb/M, I know it. This is because of the way they are able to move. This simply should not be the case.

I shouldn't be able to tell the difference in game between someone using DS3 and someone using Kb/M, but I can and so can everybody else.

if Kb/M cannot be brought into line with DS3, or DS3 be given the movement capabilities of Kb/M, then Kb/M support should be removed entirely.

The DS3 is the only control device that comes with PS3. It is the only control device available to ALL DUST 514 players, therefore should be what all control devices are measured against. If another control device outperforms the DS3 and nothing can be done to resolve the issue, then it simply shouldn't be supported.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 16	Posted - 2013.07.25 21:28:00 - [1] - Quote That's brainwashed talk after years of consoles conditioning players into believing the M/KB are evil. There are ways to make it an ergonomic choice that you can play from the couch and mouse players don't need any assistance aiming so that's a balance. Kekklian Noobatronic wrote: Zyrus Amalomyn wrote: Let the controller users cripple themselves if they really want to be that lazy and not get a cheap combo deal. I have a home theatre setup, with the ps3 on the receiver. My wife users it alot as well, so I can't just take it and put it on a small TV or monitor just to play dust with a mouse(not that I would even if I could, I like surround). Playing with a keyboard and mouse from my couch is pretty crap - i've tried. It's not a matter of buying a 'cheap combo' (because Yea, like real gamers would use cheap mice? Hah..). It's more about ergonomics and enjoyment. I'm not going to go out of my way to get a kb/m just to compete. It's a ps3, not a PC - and it's controller is a DS3, not kb/m. If I wanted kb/m, I'd go play my PC.
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 18	Posted - 2013.07.26 21:53:00 - [2] - Quote Are you that mentally disabled? You compare Call of Doodoo BS to use of M/KB which are staples some great PC FPS franchises on like Quake, Halflife, & Unreal that ripped us screaming from comfort of our sticks to embrace mice? Without aim assistance & given framerate/lag issues mouse is no panacea same as PS Move and both are very much skill intensive not some n00b easy button. Stick players have grown to accept the handicaps when they should be rebelling against it. Consoles chose sticks out of lazy design ease rather than trying to engineer a mouse solution and in fact years later have "invented" other motion controllers like wiimote, sixaxis, move, and kinect trying to undo the mistake, As long as aim assistance exists for twitch play you have no valid complaint. If you need extra training wheels ask CCP to follow Valve's CSGo example by adding a 180deg turn button. DeeJay One wrote: So TL;DR is: DS3 users can no longer compete because mouse users can do instant 360 degree turns... Welcome to COD!
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 18	Posted - 2013.07.30 06:37:00 - [3] - Quote Meant to? You are CLUELESS vvv [quote=HeroicShot]This is a CONSOLE game. Console games are meant to be played with a controller. If your going to talk about things being kept the way they were meant to be, then they should take away KB/M support completely. Console games cannot allow for KB/M support and then give it raw input as well. That would render all controller users useless. You say "Let the controller users cripple themselves if they really want to be that lazy and not get a cheap combo deal." I say "let the mouse users quit if they lack the skills to play a CONSOLE game the way its meant to be played (i.e. DS3 controller in this case).[/quote/
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 18	Posted - 2013.08.03 09:46:00 - [4] - Quote Sorry to disagree with corp mate BUT... Your complaint has less to do with KB/ and more to do with 2 simple facts: 1. swing stick takes time & generates extra commands going from peak to peak. 2. all control type are limited by ping & command rate, transmitting volume of intermediate commands compound it , Stick only FPS will always be a console kludge of laziness typically likely to continue being further marred by lack of GOOD controls for tweaking sticks' usable range & function (dead zone & ramped multiplier zones). I say consoles because good PC sticks typically have not only dead zone & ramps but also normal/precision setups and per game profiles in the stick's own software so even if a game skimped on configurability tweaks could be done. DS3 on a PC rocks using a fan made driver at a time when good PC stick makers are scarce. There are several Move frames to simulate guns as well as driving wheel as there were for Wiimotes. "sharp shooter" came with Move/Eye/Nav/Socomm 4 bundle and was crap IMHO (game & sharpshooter). Unwieldy, heavy, and must stay pointed at screen or you spin uncontrollably (a Move quirk). Move is NOT an easy button and CCP has put lackluster effort into it's functionality IMHO, same was true of MAG's devs never mind BF3's total lack of it. Move is a welcomed alternative to "stick only" and in some ways is better than mouse IF dev's do the work writing good code to configure buttons & track the movement. Move- direct input , places targeting cursor directly at @x,y pointed to like the old light guns of yore did (also digitizer tablets & touch screens do). Mouse- relative input, generates ticks of x,y +/- movement pairs at a constant rate over distance (when not "accelerated" or "ramped") and makes a terrible replacement for self-centering joysticks as driving/flying controls. Tricks have been tried to make flying mouse usable style, all fail. Modern digital proportional joysticks, still same old school x,y -/+ percentage relative center AKA "percentage of axis" and have advantage of self-centering & generating data from position rather than motion needed for flying & driving controls. This unlike good old "analog digital" sticks that only do on/off used in fighter arcade games. A DS3 with proper dead zone & ramping tweak controls exposed would allow mapping stick to your liking. Want most of the motion range = 100% axis while still maintaining a small zone of finite 0-99%, fancy multi-zone ramp, or even on the fly binary 100%/0% bringing you on par with KB's left/right toggle or mouse's quick swing? Having ability to switch into digital 100%/0% mode vs. analog proportional 0-100% on the fly is a valid feature request that should exist as stick specific "run strafe vs. walk strafe" state where minimum stick wiggle would generate -100/0/+100% swing around the dead zone. Hell you could just ask to map the d-pad & be done with it because that IS on par with pressing 2 kb keys. Fully independent axis dead, ramp, & "function" zones should be implemented right along with 100% remap ability for all input device types & button/axises just because it makes good design sense to be configurable. As it stands Move & KB players are still pretty well screwed forced to use one-size-fits-all pre-made cookie cutter mapping profiles (like bad games do to sticks). So back off the M/KB crowd because it's no panacea either. Support for various brand gaming mice is slow coming because CCP has to (do what Windows eliminated by making hardware makers) supply drivers. Users still have to swing their hands to the right mark & continue to adjust the mouse track WITHOUT any aim assistance in a game that insists on allowing heavily lagged players who need constant lag OVERcompensation making hitting by aiming accurately a fallacy anyway. You want 180deg spin, then ask for better control over how sticks' axis map. Master Jaraiya wrote: You don't cater to PC gamers when making a console FPS "if you're serious about it." Do they even make a "rifle" "pistol" or "BFG" input device for the PS3? No? Didn't think so. So no it is not the same principle here. You're argument is now invalid, sorry. Honestly, in a racing game you could achieve more similar results between a "steering wheel" vs "DS3" than you could in an FPS when comparing "KB/M" and "DS3". There is a reason racing games allow both the Wheel and Control Paddle input devices, while FPS games (other than DUST 514) do not allow KB/M and Control Paddle input methods. That is the simple fact that the mechanical abilities of the KB/M will always be more responsive than the mechanical abilities of a console controller. EDIT: There is a "rifle" type of input called the "Sharpshooter" for use with the PSMove Controller. I cannot say how this functions, but would venture a guess that in operation it is more similar to the DS3 than to the KB/M. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 18	Posted - 2013.08.03 09:52:00 - [5] - Quote 1st, some fool decided to abandon FORCE feedback controllers so were all getting (blase) haptic now anyway. 2nd, Google a bit, Logitech made iFeel haptic feedback mouse YEARS ago. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logitech-iFeel-Optical-Mouse-Blue-930525-0403-/290818525652?pt=Mice&hash=item43b62289d4 FraggerMike wrote: And I don't believe I have yet seen a mouse with feedback capability
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 19	Posted - 2013.08.06 04:27:00 - [6] - Quote Based on the people I've talked to on PS3 games you have the social outcasts on the wrong team, fact. Go figure when any idiot with $300 can plug in PS3 and play. It would seem the console gamers are in fact the whiny cry babies calling for the removal of not only valid but commonly unimplemented controller (mouse) and a made for ps3 device (Move). This while constantly ignoring the fact that it's lackluster DS3 support code that causes the imbalances you whine about rather than hardware. PC games are always traditionally superior to consoles because the hardware specs are higher & constantly evolving. Console could be as good as PC's and PS4 might be that console which is viable beyond 1st year if Sony doesn't hamstring it cutting corners like the did on PS3. I doubt people posting here "don't like consoles", though I am sure many of us certainly don't like the SUBSET of CONSOLE PLAYERS who have had a LOBOTOMY leaving them close minded, shortsighted, and complacent unable or unwilling to expend some brain power understanding technology rather spewing half-truths, myths, half-baked logic, and other peoples facts they don't understand but cling to as fact. Yes, PC players are use to having to get their hands dirty and rightly find it moronic how dumbed down console interfaces are which is why we still have read-only cookie cutter pre-made "profiles" that are terrible for Dust's input setup rather than direct access to "map key x to function y" never mind decent tweaking of stick dead zone & ramping among other NECESSARY input tweaks that would squash most of these arguments. If you think all this is to much reading: Mouse & Move belong, deal. If strafe is mapped to d-pad (or stick ramp tweakable) then KB strafe "advantage" disappears. DR Feldersnatch wrote: hopefully soon they will do away with the mouse and key board because it has no use on a ps3 at all they all ready have a advantage in strafing left to right they still need to fix the spawn system have not saw a update on that yet the problem is they are trying to make a junk pc game they should make a console game low life pc gamers are the biggest bunch of cry babies i have ever met in my life if you dont like console dont play the game go back to your pc and die a single lonely person with 10000 online friends and no real ones
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 19	Posted - 2013.08.06 04:36:00 - [7] - Quote Without driver support to send the haptics to the mouse, it's just a mouse. If I remember correctly Logitech licensed Immersion's "TouchSense" which basically worked by feeding different audio clips to the mouse in response to events. FraggerMike wrote: T3chnomanc3r wrote: 1st, some fool decided to abandon FORCE feedback controllers so were all getting (blase) haptic now anyway. 2nd, Google a bit, Logitech made iFeel haptic feedback mouse YEARS ago. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logitech-iFeel-Optical-Mouse-Blue-930525-0403-/290818525652?pt=Mice&hash=item43b62289d4 FraggerMike wrote: And I don't believe I have yet seen a mouse with feedback capability +1 Excellent info. Wonder if would work on PS3. And how that vibration would affect aim.
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 19	Posted - 2013.08.06 05:03:00 - [8] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: T3chnomanc3r wrote: A DS3 with proper dead zone & ramping tweak controls exposed would allow mapping stick to your liking. Want most of the motion range = 100% axis while still maintaining a small zone of finite 0-99%, fancy multi-zone ramp, or even on the fly binary 100%/0% bringing you on par with KB's left/right toggle or mouse's quick swing? Having ability to switch into digital 100%/0% mode vs. analog proportional 0-100% on the fly is a valid feature request that should exist as stick specific "run strafe vs. walk strafe" state where minimum stick wiggle would generate -100/0/+100% swing around the dead zone. This may not be possible due to technical limitations imposed by the software technology used by Sony in the PS3/DS3. Only not possible if CCP devs decide not to expose the settings in Dust's interface. DS3 IS interpreted by Dust and that interpretation should be exposed to allow tweaking. T3chnomanc3r wrote: Hell you could just ask to map the d-pad & be done with it because that IS on par with pressing 2 kb keys. This may be possible, but again my not be due to Software limitations of the PS3. I cannot think of any PS3 game that allows movement input via D-Pad. Also, while this would eliminate the disparity in the ability to strafe, it (correct me if I am wrong) would do nothing to bring the turn speeds in line with each other.[/quote] Again, you want fast spin, OTF, at say 25% of stick travel it's only a matter of CCP exposing stick ramp & have a button to quick toggle "quick spin mode". A better implementation would be exposing granularity control over the stick using a non-linear (AKA zones or bands) function derived or better yet user configured ramp multiplier table of "bands where each band = %axis+width@ramp_x" ). Not having full control over stick is BIG issue, even if mouse is not considered. Frankly I don't give a crap if they fix it, mouse & move should stay no matter.
T3chnomanc3r Ultramarine Corp 19	Posted - 2013.08.22 08:20:00 - [9] - Quote I've told you in voice, your a fool and your complaint is with lacking DS3 features not the KB. Master Jaraiya wrote: T3chnomanc3r wrote: Not having full control over stick is BIG issue, even if mouse is not considered. Frankly mouse & move should stay no matter if they fix joystick, I don't give a crap about perceived advantages BUT do care if CCP doesn't wise up & expose more direct tweaking of input PC style. This clearly shows your own bias toward Kb/M, which is fine when you are talking PC gaming. This, however is a console game. It is not perceived advantages, but very real and apparent advantages. The instant I am facing an opponent using Kb/M, I know it. This is because of the way they are able to move. This simply should not be the case. I shouldn't be able to tell the difference in game between someone using DS3 and someone using Kb/M, but I can and so can everybody else. if Kb/M cannot be brought into line with DS3, or DS3 be given the movement capabilities of Kb/M, then Kb/M support should be removed entirely. The DS3 is the only control device that comes with PS3. It is the only control device available to ALL DUST 514 players, therefore should be what all control devices are measured against. If another control device outperforms the DS3 and nothing can be done to resolve the issue, then it simply shouldn't be supported.