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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
485
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Posted - 2013.07.27 21:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
As a console gamer, I do not feel allowing KB/M support on a console game is fair at all.
PS3 does not come with a gaming KB/M setup it comes with a DS3 controller.
Movement mechanics are totally different when comparing the different setups.
KB/M users, when strafing can literally stop on a dime and go the other direction without a change in speed because they can simply go from moving right > left instantly.
DS3 users must move the analog stick from far right > center > far left. This means that to shift directions we are forced to gradually slow our speed by moving back to center then gradually increase our speed to move in another direction.
These two examples are describing the differences in strafing abilities across the input methods. The effect is compounded further when you consider the KB/M users can perform instant turns at 90 degree intervals, while the DS3 takes more than twice as long to turn the same amount. Therefore even if the DS3 user has a better reaction time, it is negated in DUST 514 by his/her use of the default PS3 control input method.
This is only marginally mitigated by the fact that DS3 users have a 360 degree field of view where KB/M users as I understand do not. Given the previously stated advantages in strafing abilities combined with the faster turning abilities of KB/M users, this so called "advantage" of the DS3 is completely nullified.
In aiming the KB/M user's movement advantages work against the DS3 user's aiming mechanics which are nearly identical to the DS3 user's movement mechanics in that we must go from left > center > right to adjust our aim.
This essentially makes the DS3 users track a faster, more nimble KB/M enemy which moves completely unpredictably with slower controls, while the KB/M users enjoy tracking the slower, more predictable DS3 enemy with a more responsive, more accurate tracking input method.
In a tracking FPS like DUST 514, this creates a clear and undeniable and disparity granting advantage to KB/M users. This is completely unacceptable in a console FPS whose default input method is DS3 controller. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
485
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Posted - 2013.07.27 21:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zyrus Amalomyn wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:As a console gamer, I do not feel allowing KB/M support on a console game is fair at all.
PS3 does not come with a gaming KB/M setup it comes with a DS3 controller.
Movement mechanics are totally different when comparing the different setups.
KB/M users, when strafing can literally stop on a dime and go the other direction without a change in speed because they can simply go from moving right > left instantly.
DS3 users must move the analog stick from far right > center > far left. This means that to shift directions we are forced to gradually slow our speed by moving back to center then gradually increase our speed to move in another direction.
These two examples are describing the differences in strafing abilities across the input methods. The effect is compounded further when you consider the KB/M users can perform instant turns at 90 degree intervals, while the DS3 takes more than twice as long to turn the same amount. Therefore even if the DS3 user has a better reaction time, it is negated in DUST 514 by his/her use of the default PS3 control input method.
This is only marginally mitigated by the fact that DS3 users have a 360 degree field of view where KB/M users as I understand do not. Given the previously stated advantages in strafing abilities combined with the faster turning abilities of KB/M users, this so called "advantage" of the DS3 is completely nullified.
In aiming the KB/M user's movement advantages work against the DS3 user's aiming mechanics which are nearly identical to the DS3 user's movement mechanics in that we must go from left > center > right to adjust our aim.
This essentially makes the DS3 users track a faster, more nimble KB/M enemy which moves completely unpredictably with slower controls, while the KB/M users enjoy tracking the slower, more predictable DS3 enemy with a more responsive, more accurate tracking input method.
In a tracking FPS like DUST 514, this creates a clear and undeniable and disparity granting advantage to KB/M users. This is completely unacceptable in a console FPS whose default input method is DS3 controller. You don't play a racing game on anything but a wheel input device if you're serious about it. Same principle here.
You don't cater to PC gamers when making a console FPS "if you're serious about it."
Do they even make a "rifle" "pistol" or "BFG" input device for the PS3? No? Didn't think so. So no it is not the same principle here. You're argument is now invalid, sorry.
Honestly in a racing game you could achieve more similar results between a "steering wheel" vs "DS3" than you could in an FPS when comparing "KB/M" and "DS3".
There is a reason racing games allow both the Wheel and Control Paddle input devices, while FPS games (other than DUST 514) do not allow KB/M and Control Paddle input methods.
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
488
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Posted - 2013.07.28 14:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:
[...]
KB/M users, when strafing can literally stop on a dime and go the other direction without a change in speed because they can simply go from moving right > left instantly.
DS3 users must move the analog stick from far right > center > far left. This means that to shift directions we are forced to gradually slow our speed by moving back to center then gradually increase our speed to move in another direction.
[...]
I get this, makes sense, and that would cause some imbalances between controller choices we're seeing. I can't see why any of this has to be an issue. Why can't simple physics simply be applied across the board. If you write the software so that my dropsuit cannot instantly change direction (which shouldn't be possible when you factor in inertia etc.) then nobody has any disadvantage. Maybe this is easier said than done, I dunno, I don't write software for games, but seems like mins and maxes shouldn't be applied to the controllers, but to the things being controlled. This guy gets it! |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
496
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Posted - 2013.08.03 16:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
T3chnomanc3r wrote:1. swing stick takes time & generates extra commands going from peak to peak. This is my main gripe. DS3 analog stick does this, while Kb/M does not.
T3chnomanc3r wrote:Sorry to disagree with corp mate BUT...
Your complaint has less to do with KB/ and more to do with 2 simple facts:
1. swing stick takes time & generates extra commands going from peak to peak. 2. all control type are limited by ping & command rate, transmitting volume of intermediate commands compound it ,
Stick only FPS will always be a console kludge of laziness typically likely to continue being further marred by lack of GOOD controls for tweaking sticks' usable range & function (dead zone & ramped multiplier zones). I say consoles because good PC sticks typically have not only dead zone & ramps but also normal/precision setups and per game profiles in the stick's own software so even if a game skimped on configurability tweaks could be done. DS3 on a PC rocks using a fan made driver at a time when good PC stick makers are scarce.
There are several Move frames to simulate guns as well as driving wheel as there were for Wiimotes. "sharp shooter" came with Move/Eye/Nav/Socomm 4 bundle and was crap IMHO (game & sharpshooter). Unwieldy, heavy, and must stay pointed at screen or you spin uncontrollably (a Move quirk). Move is NOT an easy button and CCP has put lackluster effort into it's functionality IMHO, same was true of MAG's devs never mind BF3's total lack of it. Move is a welcomed alternative to "stick only" and in some ways is better than mouse IF dev's do the work writing good code to configure buttons & track the movement.
Move- direct input , places targeting cursor directly at @x,y pointed to like the old light guns of yore did (also digitizer tablets & touch screens do).
Mouse- relative input, generates ticks of x,y +/- movement pairs at a constant rate over distance (when not "accelerated" or "ramped") and makes a terrible replacement for self-centering joysticks as driving/flying controls. Tricks have been tried to make flying mouse usable style, all fail.
Modern digital proportional joysticks, still same old school x,y -/+ percentage relative center AKA "percentage of axis" and have advantage of self-centering & generating data from position rather than motion needed for flying & driving controls. This unlike good old "analog digital" sticks that only do on/off used in fighter arcade games.
A DS3 with proper dead zone & ramping tweak controls exposed would allow mapping stick to your liking. Want most of the motion range = 100% axis while still maintaining a small zone of finite 0-99%, fancy multi-zone ramp, or even on the fly binary 100%/0% bringing you on par with KB's left/right toggle or mouse's quick swing? Having ability to switch into digital 100%/0% mode vs. analog proportional 0-100% on the fly is a valid feature request that should exist as stick specific "run strafe vs. walk strafe" state where minimum stick wiggle would generate -100/0/+100% swing around the dead zone. Hell you could just ask to map the d-pad & be done with it because that IS on par with pressing 2 kb keys.
Fully independent axis dead, ramp, & "function" zones should be implemented right along with 100% remap ability for all input device types & button/axises just because it makes good design sense to be configurable. As it stands Move & KB players are still pretty well screwed forced to use one-size-fits-all pre-made cookie cutter mapping profiles (like bad games do to sticks).
So back off the M/KB crowd because it's no panacea either. Support for various brand gaming mice is slow coming because CCP has to (do what Windows eliminated by making hardware makers) supply drivers. Users still have to swing their hands to the right mark & continue to adjust the mouse track WITHOUT any aim assistance in a game that insists on allowing heavily lagged players who need constant lag OVERcompensation making hitting by aiming accurately a fallacy anyway. You want 180deg spin, then ask for better control over how sticks' axis map.
It seems to me though, that you are speaking of the potential for DS3 and Kb/M to be on par with eachother in Console/PC gaming in general. I am speaking of the current, and likely future state of DUST 514, where there is a clear and obvious difference between the Mechanics of each input method. A difference which leans toward favoring Kb/M users.
T3chnomanc3r wrote:A DS3 with proper dead zone & ramping tweak controls exposed would allow mapping stick to your liking. Want most of the motion range = 100% axis while still maintaining a small zone of finite 0-99%, fancy multi-zone ramp, or even on the fly binary 100%/0% bringing you on par with KB's left/right toggle or mouse's quick swing? Having ability to switch into digital 100%/0% mode vs. analog proportional 0-100% on the fly is a valid feature request that should exist as stick specific "run strafe vs. walk strafe" state where minimum stick wiggle would generate -100/0/+100% swing around the dead zone.
This may not be possible due to technical limitations imposed by the software technology used by Sony in the PS3/DS3.
T3chnomanc3r wrote:Hell you could just ask to map the d-pad & be done with it because that IS on par with pressing 2 kb keys.
This may be possible, but again my not be due to Software limitations of the PS3. I cannot think of any PS3 game that allows movement input via D-Pad. Also, while this would eliminate the disparity in the ability to strafe, it (correct me if I am wrong) would do nothing to bring the turn speeds in line with eachother. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
496
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Posted - 2013.08.04 00:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zethnos wrote: Try looking up some old ps1 and ps2 games... also look into the N64. many racing and fighting games on the d-pad.
I did say PS3 games.
I'm fully aware that PS1 games use D-pad (there was no analog stick with PS1) along with some PS2 games and many N64 games.
As for PS3 being backward compatible for PS1 games, this is because of the extra hardware working with a software emulator therefore it would make sense that these PS1 classics use the D-pad on the DS3 controller. This may simply be allowed only through the PS1 software emulation.
Master Jaraiya wrote:This may be possible, but again my not be due to Software limitations of the PS3. I cannot think of any PS3 game that allows movement input via D-Pad. Also, while this would eliminate the disparity in the ability to strafe, it (correct me if I am wrong) would do nothing to bring the turn speeds in line with eachother. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
512
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Posted - 2013.08.09 02:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
T3chnomanc3r wrote: Not having full control over stick is BIG issue, even if mouse is not considered. Frankly mouse & move should stay no matter if they fix joystick, I don't give a crap about perceived advantages BUT do care if CCP doesn't wise up & expose more direct tweaking of input PC style.
This clearly shows your own bias toward Kb/M, which is fine when you are talking PC gaming. This, however is a console game.
It is not perceived advantages, but very real and apparent advantages. The instant I am facing an opponent using Kb/M, I know it. This is because of the way they are able to move. This simply should not be the case.
I shouldn't be able to tell the difference in game between someone using DS3 and someone using Kb/M, but I can and so can everybody else.
if Kb/M cannot be brought into line with DS3, or DS3 be given the movement capabilities of Kb/M, then Kb/M support should be removed entirely.
The DS3 is the only control device that comes with PS3. It is the only control device available to ALL DUST 514 players, therefore should be what all control devices are measured against. If another control device outperforms the DS3 and nothing can be done to resolve the issue, then it simply shouldn't be supported. |
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