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Panther Alpha
DarkWingsss
770
   |
Posted - 2013.07.25 15:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Knight Soiaire wrote:"A Nova Knife nerf would be acceptable"  Go AR or go home. Anything other than an AR that becomes even remotely effective will be nerfed. <----- First rule of Dust.
They should nerf Orbital Strikes then .. because that is definitely more effective than an AR... ohh.. and every single ONE shoot kill weapon...which is very much every weapon except the AR, the SMG, and the HMG.
People likes the AR better.. why can you just don't understand this... ? |
Celeste Cyra
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.07.25 16:35:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:King Kobrah wrote:I've had 550 shields taken from one swipe of nova knives
balanced because it's melee, or OP because it can one shot a lot of suits? you be the judge. A max skilled Nova Knife on any suit can OHK (assuming both charged swipes hit) /almost/ every suit in the game, with a single 'attack'. A minmatar scout -can- OHK any suit in the game. They buffed the knives unncessarily in the second uprising 1.0... the damage listed in the 'show info box' used to show the damge per swipe when charged. Now it shows the damage per swipe -without- being charged. This means they can do the same damage as before, but much faster. Which is somewhat fine. That's a reasonable buff. However, add on the tidbit where charging them makes them do roughly double that listed damage per swipe.... That starts to get a bit crazy. Then factor in the skill bonus from knives, and possibly sidearm damage mods. Then you've got the suit bonus from minny scout, if you fancy ugly rusty suits :P Something having a difficult/niche use is no excuse for it being -too awesome-. There's a fine line between rewarding weapons that highly rely on player skill and making those weapons too powerful. CCP crossed it here, in my humble opinion. The current uncharged /old charged damage is fine-as it. But It'd honestly rather they revert to the old method and make the uncharged swipes do less damage. These things should mostly be swung when not charged as a follow-up to a charged attack if it doesn't quite kill someone. They shouldn't be a OHK-opener you can use without charging and still have such a great effect.
With that line of reasoning I have to ask about the fate of scrambler rifles. Does this mean you guys are going to push for them to be nerfed or something? I'm only asking because I've decided to go the with the scrambler over the AR after a ton of trial and error testing. |
Fremder V1
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.07.25 16:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kinky Burrito wrote:Fremder V1 wrote:mollerz wrote:Nova Knife wrote:
Even with Advanced tier knives, the damage gets pretty crazy. It's only at the standard level that knives are useless, because their damage and charge speed is just blatantly unattractive.
pretty crazy? so, never mind the damage is balanced out by it's range, right? Let's also ignore the fact you can not sprint charge, and that people can run backward at the same speed they can forward. The freezing of knives if you slash too fast. the terrible hit detection. the seriously deficient FOV. The lag. sorry man. your opinion needs to be rethought. the kill is about the journey. the scout is the bullet. the damage is balanced. your opinion is ill informed. That. Plus the scoutsuits have very little CPU/PG, but the modules needed for a decent build and the knifes themself, require a lot. To be able to fit protoknifes together with at least adavanced biotics and 2 complex shieldextender in my advanced minmatar scoutsuit, i have to give up a second weapon, the equipmentslot and grenades. Meaning paper as armor and only meele attacks. Meaning running around like crazy, since almost everything can still kill you instantly, while searching for that one guy who looks the other way, is standing as still as possible, and doesn't have buddy's around who may spot you. At the current state, Minjas are allready the very hard mode of the game. Really more an artform for bored people, than a reliable playstyle. Take away the ability to OHK, and you have nothing left. Could be a different story with a leap-attack, or maybe even just better hit-detection. One will see. I'm on the same page as you as far as knives go, but I think it's worth pointing out that every class has to sacrifice a lot to fit a Proto weapon on an advanced suit. That's not a "problem" endemic to scouts.
You shall only attack in close combat. You shall only attack slow targets. You shall only attack from behind...
The thing with knifes is, in almost all situations, almost all other weapons are a smarter choice. As a sidearm, they are quite bad.
To use them reasonably efficient, it is necessary to use a build dedicated to the few situations in which they do shine. And since those are rare opportuneness, which require a lot of searching, flanking, and the abillity to get in and out alive, it is a must to have as much speed and stamina as possible...
Which leads to the HP and CPU/PG wise poor scout suit with CPU/PG intensive biotics in the low slots, while for most other weapons a medium sized suit with undemanding basic plates will do just fine.
With knifes it's also more important to use the higher tiers at all, considering you better do OHK your opponent, or most likely die shortly after trying. And the differences between the tiers are a lot bigger than by... let's say AR'S or SMG's.
Of course, you are still right: Protoweapons on advanced suit always require sacrifices.
I just wanted to mention that this is even more true, and thus another balancing factor, when it comes to knifes. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3535
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 15:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sorry, Nova. But I disagree. The knives are fine as they are right now and I don't want to see any changes to them. Besides, even with the buff it's still super rare to see knifers in the field and most of the people I do see using them use it only as a backup weapon when they run out of ammo. |
Vrain Matari
ZionTCD
673
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 16:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
Grim Gaige wrote:That is only half of the sentence of what that person said.
They said A nova knife nerf would be acceptable if they gave us a running charge and a backstab bonus.
This is what i'd really like to see.
It would make the gameplay a lot more interesting for knifers and their prey. And i'm thinking it would make melee a lot more important in dealing with knife attacks.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3536
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 16:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Nova Knife wrote:King Kobrah wrote:I've had 550 shields taken from one swipe of nova knives
balanced because it's melee, or OP because it can one shot a lot of suits? you be the judge. A max skilled Nova Knife on any suit can OHK (assuming both charged swipes hit) /almost/ every suit in the game, with a single 'attack'. A minmatar scout -can- OHK any suit in the game. They buffed the knives unncessarily in the second uprising 1.0... the damage listed in the 'show info box' used to show the damge per swipe when charged. Now it shows the damage per swipe -without- being charged. This means they can do the same damage as before, but much faster. Which is somewhat fine. That's a reasonable buff. However, add on the tidbit where charging them makes them do roughly double that listed damage per swipe.... That starts to get a bit crazy. Then factor in the skill bonus from knives, and possibly sidearm damage mods. Then you've got the suit bonus from minny scout, if you fancy ugly rusty suits :P Something having a difficult/niche use is no excuse for it being -too awesome-. There's a fine line between rewarding weapons that highly rely on player skill and making those weapons too powerful. CCP crossed it here, in my humble opinion. The current uncharged /old charged damage is fine-as it. But It'd honestly rather they revert to the old method and make the uncharged swipes do less damage. These things should mostly be swung when not charged as a follow-up to a charged attack if it doesn't quite kill someone. They shouldn't be a OHK-opener you can use without charging and still have such a great effect. Proto Nova: 200 (400 if charge doubles damage.) Lvl 5 Nova Prof: 15% 2 complex damage mods: 20% (if we discount stacking penalties.) Lvl 5 Min-Scout bonus: 25% Max damage after total 60% bonus: 320 (640) Show me your numbers. It should be that easy to prove your point. Base damage of the proto nova is 200. GO!
That 320 HP (640 HP charged) is per knife and you are carrying two knifes (one on each hand). Me, Nova, Iceshifter, Mr Musturd and others like me have confirmed that there is double strike involved.
Max Damage: 640 HP (1280 HP)
That is enough to challenge even the proto-heavies. |
Bendtner92
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
856
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Posted - 2013.08.11 16:54:00 -
[37] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:That 320 HP (640 HP charged) is per knife and you are carrying two knifes (one on each hand). Me, Nova, Iceshifter, Mr Musturd and others like me have confirmed that there is double strike involved.
Max Damage: 640 HP (1280 HP)
That is enough to challenge even the proto-heavies.
It's actually slightly more than that isn't it?
200 * 1.15 (Proficiency) * 1.2 (damage mods, and yes, I know the correct number is 1.196) * 1.25 (suit bonus) = 345 damage per knife uncharged = 1380 damage with both knives charged.
Correct? |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3536
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 16:55:00 -
[38] - Quote
Overall, I don't believe the nova knives are as powerful as people here make them out to be. In my opinion, they are fine considering the actual amount of experience-based skill you have to put into it. It's not as simple as just training the skill books into the Ishukone nova knives. No one becomes an instant god just by fitting maxed out Ishukones.
You have to plot out the best route to flank your enemy, time your attacks properly, anticipate where the enemy will go to and when, anticipate when the enemy will stop suddenly (which results in you overshooting and thus miss and then get shot at), learn how to not get spotted by using the element of surprise because learning how to surprise someone is much harder than it looks, and you have to consider the fact that you are unable to sprint with the charge held while most of the maps are open fields which makes knifing difficult but getting sniped easier.
The only way in which nova knives can potentially become overpowered at all is when you allow knifers to sprint with the charged knives. Let's also not forget cloaking equipment that will eventually be introduced anyways in the near future. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
3536
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 16:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:That 320 HP (640 HP charged) is per knife and you are carrying two knifes (one on each hand). Me, Nova, Iceshifter, Mr Musturd and others like me have confirmed that there is double strike involved.
Max Damage: 640 HP (1280 HP)
That is enough to challenge even the proto-heavies. It's actually slightly more than that isn't it? 200 * 1.15 (Proficiency) * 1.2 (damage mods, and yes, I know the correct number is 1.196) * 1.25 (suit bonus) = 345 damage per knife uncharged = 1380 damage with both knives charged. Correct?
Actually, yes. You are correct. I was just going by the example used by the previous poster as I was too lazy to look back at my previous calculations.
However, me, Iceshifter, and a few other Dust-Uni colleagues have discovered that there might be some hidden damage bonus towards shields but it's hard to tell how much if we don't have a proper testing environment. |
Admonishment
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.11 17:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Lol someone got a kill with something other than an AR!! NERF IT!! Takes a lot of patience to run around with a weapon that can only be used in elbow distance...a good way to avoid it would be oh I don't know...moving and actually using this thing called awareness. You can be one shot over a distance but its an issue when someone uses skill to get up close. Might as well just Nerf the loading screen while we are at it, its just to OP. |
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