DUST Search - Should we give up? A Scout's Lament

Mary Sedillo wrote:

AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote:

TL;DR - CCP throw me a bone on the Scout Suit. I need some info to keep playing. It won't cost you any money to let me know when and if this suit might see some changes

Dear CCP,

I'd love to get a response to this - though I doubt that I really will. It is about the scout suit. I've detailed in other posts my opinions on how it can be improved - but more than that now I'm interested in knowing when and if any changes will be made to the suit. I was incredibly saddened to see no changes coming in 1.3 and completely devastated when I read a discussion on 1.4 - good changes all around, certainly - but none directly affecting the suit that I enjoy using the most, that I feel has the best design and theoretical role.

So this is my question. How long do you really expect me to wait? I've been chill going 4/15 for a while now. I only rarely ever use anything above standard level anymore with the scout, because it just doesn't pay. Using an advanced suit, with its 1 extra slot makes little difference for the price I pay and the winnings I earn and I'm all about profit, so I hate playing at a loss. And even in those games when I play all out, it makes little difference.

The reason I bring this up is to emphasize this fundamental point: my passion for this game seems to be waning. I hate to admit it. I love the concept. I'm ALL about MMO's and immersive universes that you can lose yourself in. I love storylines and drama and risk and reward. I also love FPS's as a general rule and the combination of the two has been awesome. I'm not like a lot of those on here - I think this game is actually kind of great. It's immersive and unique and the theory behind it - molding your character to fit your playstyle - is one that I can thoroughly endorse.

That being said, there are well trodden arguments about the inherent imbalances in this game. To name a few
- Assault/Logi GREATER THAN Everything Else At Every Role Ever
- Scout = Tissue Paper, No Protection, No Stealth, No Point
- DS3 vs. KB/M (this one is terrible because people who play with the DS3 are at an inherent disadvantage - it's so sluggish comparatively)
- Heavy Suit/Weapon Imbalance
- Vehicle Imbalance (I know you're working on a fix for these - greatly appreciated)
- Tanks vs. AV (which I think is balanced already, but tankers whine whenever they don't go 25-0)

Fixes are coming. I understand. But there is a REAL problem with foundation of this game - "choices matter" - when viewed in context of the above imbalances. I've played as scout since the beginning, mostly because I love running/jumping and the design (the gallente scout suit? Beautiful). The problem is that as you go higher and higher in the game, you sort of realize that there is sort of a pyramid effect. That is, it's okay to be a scout shotgunner in the academy, but absolutely pointless in any real battle. The only motivation for that style of play is one's natural affinity/affection for it. There is no pragmatic reason in-game to play some of these roles (Heavy, Scout) because other suits fulfill them much better, much quicker at less cost.

cont'd

You totally lost my respect with your "thoughts" on AV balance. You hate not making profit? TRY RUNNING A TANK you bunny hopping scout bastard. Realize that the MOMENT av hits me, I have to run back with my balls in my hand or risk losing my near 1 million vehicle to a suit that costs a FRACTION of that.

And you dare complain about your ****** bunny hopping suit?

Meh.

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AfroSunshineY Consequence Clan Choinnich 52	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:21:00 - [1] - Quote TL;DR - CCP throw me a bone on the Scout Suit. I need some info to keep playing. It won't cost you any money to let me know when and if this suit might see some changes Dear CCP, I'd love to get a response to this - though I doubt that I really will. It is about the scout suit. I've detailed in other posts my opinions on how it can be improved - but more than that now I'm interested in knowing when and if any changes will be made to the suit. I was incredibly saddened to see no changes coming in 1.3 and completely devastated when I read a discussion on 1.4 - good changes all around, certainly - but none directly affecting the suit that I enjoy using the most, that I feel has the best design and theoretical role. So this is my question. How long do you really expect me to wait? I've been chill going 4/15 for a while now. I only rarely ever use anything above standard level anymore with the scout, because it just doesn't pay. Using an advanced suit, with its 1 extra slot makes little difference for the price I pay and the winnings I earn and I'm all about profit, so I hate playing at a loss. And even in those games when I play all out, it makes little difference. The reason I bring this up is to emphasize this fundamental point: my passion for this game seems to be waning. I hate to admit it. I love the concept. I'm ALL about MMO's and immersive universes that you can lose yourself in. I love storylines and drama and risk and reward. I also love FPS's as a general rule and the combination of the two has been awesome. I'm not like a lot of those on here - I think this game is actually kind of great. It's immersive and unique and the theory behind it - molding your character to fit your playstyle - is one that I can thoroughly endorse. That being said, there are well trodden arguments about the inherent imbalances in this game. To name a few - Assault/Logi GREATER THAN Everything Else At Every Role Ever - Scout = Tissue Paper, No Protection, No Stealth, No Point - DS3 vs. KB/M (this one is terrible because people who play with the DS3 are at an inherent disadvantage - it's so sluggish comparatively) - Heavy Suit/Weapon Imbalance - Vehicle Imbalance (I know you're working on a fix for these - greatly appreciated) - Tanks vs. AV (which I think is balanced already, but tankers whine whenever they don't go 25-0) Fixes are coming. I understand. But there is a REAL problem with foundation of this game - "choices matter" - when viewed in context of the above imbalances. I've played as scout since the beginning, mostly because I love running/jumping and the design (the gallente scout suit? Beautiful). The problem is that as you go higher and higher in the game, you sort of realize that there is sort of a pyramid effect. That is, it's okay to be a scout shotgunner in the academy, but absolutely pointless in any real battle. The only motivation for that style of play is one's natural affinity/affection for it. There is no pragmatic reason in-game to play some of these roles (Heavy, Scout) because other suits fulfill them much better, much quicker at less cost. cont'd
AfroSunshineY Consequence Clan Choinnich 52	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:22:00 - [2] - Quote It makes no sense to me that at the prototype level a scout can only match the HP of a naked militia medium suit at significant cost (in both SP and ISK), with no particular benefit available. Sure I can run fast, but if I get hit, I slow down, my character becomes unresponsive and I'm Dead before I hit the ground. Let me repeat. I'm DEAD BEFORE I HIT THE GROUND. I've seen my name appear on a kill feed before I even knew that I was dead. I've had very odd experiences where I die impossibly fast even while absolutely positive I've made it to cover (after playing for 3 months on the same maps I know them in and out for goodness sakes). Attempting to use a shotgun in a strafing battle while using a DS3 is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. It's pointless. When I do land a hit, its usually by accident and its usually not enough to kill. Assassination is difficult because of the shotguns poor hit detection. Something as simple as destroying a drop uplink on the ground is impossible while moving because the gun moves so wildly unless I put the sensitivity to Zero at which point its still hard to accurately aim and IMPOSSIBLE to hit a moving target. I've had experiences where I get up close enough to a stationary player (snipers, people hacking) - close enough to put my balls on their F****KING heads and taken my time to aim properly and shot and done NO damage. before I can shoot again , they've realized someone is there, turned around and submachine gunned me to death. I would try to counter with my own sidearm but oh wait. I don't have enough cpu/PG to fit a sidearm and also fit a drop uplink which is just absolutely NECESSARY to be of any use to my team. But we knew all this already. And I've dealt with it. Why? Because I really love this game. What is above is not so important to me as what is coming next. I can't keep wasting my real world time on a game and a role that serves zero purpose. You know? Today I thought for the first time of switching classes altogether. But doing so would hinder me down the road with wasted SP if i ever decided to go back to the scout suit (if it's ever fixed). Choices matter, but not if those choices are based on unfulfilled promises - I believe it was IWS that said that scouts would soon be getting some love. i'd like to see that, but how long is SOON? You can't keep dangling the carrot and expecting no push back. Essentially what I'm saying here is PLEASE. Let me knew WHEN or even IF you'll be fixing this suit. I need to know because otherwise I feel like I am wasting my time and cheating myself and that just is not okay. I'm talking honestly here. Let me know. Best, Sunshine
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 320	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:32:00 - [3] - Quote AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: Today I thought for the first time of switching classes altogether. This line in particular struck me. I had the exact same thought today before I logged off.... I found myself "browsing" the stats of the medium suits and wondering what, if anything, I should skill into should I grow tired of waiting for the scout to become more relevant. I guess this is how the heavies also feel. I may be able to make it to 1.5 and beyond. We'll see. I know that it is in the queue for CCP, and there are many other things to fix, but man does it suck dying so often. EDIT: Post #21, 3rd paragraph from the bottom states scouts should get some work (likely) post 1.5..... so, months and months from now. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=91359&p=2
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. League of Infamy 713	Posted - 2013.07.24 18:35:00 - [4] - Quote I'm looking for scouts. Not scout snipers. We need more of them. I understand the downside and there are many guys running scouts in PC that are dying a LOT, but they are providing an important distraction/disruption.
Asher Night Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 435	Posted - 2013.07.24 19:53:00 - [5] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I'm looking for scouts. Not scout snipers. We need more of them. I understand the downside and there are many guys running scouts in PC that are dying a LOT, but they are providing an important distraction/disruption. In the spirit of fair competition and gaming, that still isn't acceptable even if they are performing some helpful task. Everyone who's not a scout does well at their roles and doesn't have a horrible time playing the game. OP, I'm a Gal Scout and I admit it has gotten harder but even I don't have ratios that bad. maybe I'll go 1 and 2 sometimes, but consider moving with your team more? Something I notice helps is I actually let my team fight the enemy a bit then I shoot at the enemy while they are weak and distracted, basically I try to steal kills. Pathetic yes, but at least it gets me a kill instead of just wrecked repeatedly in this horrible mockery of an FPS. The scout in FPS's is usually hard mode but in this game it's "Big Boss" mode. If you even get spotted its Mission Failed. By the way, I always play a stealth scout type role in FPS's and this is the only one that I dont have a KDR of 2 to 1 - I seriously doubt its because everyone is just so amazingly great and I suck.
HYENAKILLER X Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 81	Posted - 2013.07.24 20:12:00 - [6] - Quote I would advise you to. Once people realize with proper spacing and developing beter aiming skills scouts without flaylocks are almost guaranteed kills. Dont get me wrong they get objectives quick and do get kills. But they do drop easy.
Mary Sedillo BetaMax. CRONOS. 178	Posted - 2013.07.24 20:15:00 - [7] - Quote AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: TL;DR - CCP throw me a bone on the Scout Suit. I need some info to keep playing. It won't cost you any money to let me know when and if this suit might see some changes Dear CCP, I'd love to get a response to this - though I doubt that I really will. It is about the scout suit. I've detailed in other posts my opinions on how it can be improved - but more than that now I'm interested in knowing when and if any changes will be made to the suit. I was incredibly saddened to see no changes coming in 1.3 and completely devastated when I read a discussion on 1.4 - good changes all around, certainly - but none directly affecting the suit that I enjoy using the most, that I feel has the best design and theoretical role. So this is my question. How long do you really expect me to wait? I've been chill going 4/15 for a while now. I only rarely ever use anything above standard level anymore with the scout, because it just doesn't pay. Using an advanced suit, with its 1 extra slot makes little difference for the price I pay and the winnings I earn and I'm all about profit, so I hate playing at a loss. And even in those games when I play all out, it makes little difference. The reason I bring this up is to emphasize this fundamental point: my passion for this game seems to be waning. I hate to admit it. I love the concept. I'm ALL about MMO's and immersive universes that you can lose yourself in. I love storylines and drama and risk and reward. I also love FPS's as a general rule and the combination of the two has been awesome. I'm not like a lot of those on here - I think this game is actually kind of great. It's immersive and unique and the theory behind it - molding your character to fit your playstyle - is one that I can thoroughly endorse. That being said, there are well trodden arguments about the inherent imbalances in this game. To name a few - Assault/Logi GREATER THAN Everything Else At Every Role Ever - Scout = Tissue Paper, No Protection, No Stealth, No Point - DS3 vs. KB/M (this one is terrible because people who play with the DS3 are at an inherent disadvantage - it's so sluggish comparatively) - Heavy Suit/Weapon Imbalance - Vehicle Imbalance (I know you're working on a fix for these - greatly appreciated) - Tanks vs. AV (which I think is balanced already, but tankers whine whenever they don't go 25-0) Fixes are coming. I understand. But there is a REAL problem with foundation of this game - "choices matter" - when viewed in context of the above imbalances. I've played as scout since the beginning, mostly because I love running/jumping and the design (the gallente scout suit? Beautiful). The problem is that as you go higher and higher in the game, you sort of realize that there is sort of a pyramid effect. That is, it's okay to be a scout shotgunner in the academy, but absolutely pointless in any real battle. The only motivation for that style of play is one's natural affinity/affection for it. There is no pragmatic reason in-game to play some of these roles (Heavy, Scout) because other suits fulfill them much better, much quicker at less cost. cont'd You totally lost my respect with your "thoughts" on AV balance. You hate not making profit? TRY RUNNING A TANK you bunny hopping scout bastard. Realize that the MOMENT av hits me, I have to run back with my balls in my hand or risk losing my near 1 million vehicle to a suit that costs a FRACTION of that. And you dare complain about your ****** bunny hopping suit? Meh.
AfroSunshineY Consequence Clan Choinnich 57	Posted - 2013.07.24 21:26:00 - [8] - Quote Mary Sedillo wrote: AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: TL;DR - CCP throw me a bone on the Scout Suit. I need some info to keep playing. It won't cost you any money to let me know when and if this suit might see some changes Dear CCP, I'd love to get a response to this - though I doubt that I really will. It is about the scout suit. I've detailed in other posts my opinions on how it can be improved - but more than that now I'm interested in knowing when and if any changes will be made to the suit. I was incredibly saddened to see no changes coming in 1.3 and completely devastated when I read a discussion on 1.4 - good changes all around, certainly - but none directly affecting the suit that I enjoy using the most, that I feel has the best design and theoretical role. So this is my question. How long do you really expect me to wait? I've been chill going 4/15 for a while now. I only rarely ever use anything above standard level anymore with the scout, because it just doesn't pay. Using an advanced suit, with its 1 extra slot makes little difference for the price I pay and the winnings I earn and I'm all about profit, so I hate playing at a loss. And even in those games when I play all out, it makes little difference. The reason I bring this up is to emphasize this fundamental point: my passion for this game seems to be waning. I hate to admit it. I love the concept. I'm ALL about MMO's and immersive universes that you can lose yourself in. I love storylines and drama and risk and reward. I also love FPS's as a general rule and the combination of the two has been awesome. I'm not like a lot of those on here - I think this game is actually kind of great. It's immersive and unique and the theory behind it - molding your character to fit your playstyle - is one that I can thoroughly endorse. That being said, there are well trodden arguments about the inherent imbalances in this game. To name a few - Assault/Logi GREATER THAN Everything Else At Every Role Ever - Scout = Tissue Paper, No Protection, No Stealth, No Point - DS3 vs. KB/M (this one is terrible because people who play with the DS3 are at an inherent disadvantage - it's so sluggish comparatively) - Heavy Suit/Weapon Imbalance - Vehicle Imbalance (I know you're working on a fix for these - greatly appreciated) - Tanks vs. AV (which I think is balanced already, but tankers whine whenever they don't go 25-0) Fixes are coming. I understand. But there is a REAL problem with foundation of this game - "choices matter" - when viewed in context of the above imbalances. I've played as scout since the beginning, mostly because I love running/jumping and the design (the gallente scout suit? Beautiful). The problem is that as you go higher and higher in the game, you sort of realize that there is sort of a pyramid effect. That is, it's okay to be a scout shotgunner in the academy, but absolutely pointless in any real battle. The only motivation for that style of play is one's natural affinity/affection for it. There is no pragmatic reason in-game to play some of these roles (Heavy, Scout) because other suits fulfill them much better, much quicker at less cost. cont'd You totally lost my respect with your "thoughts" on AV balance. You hate not making profit? TRY RUNNING A TANK you bunny hopping scout bastard. Realize that the MOMENT av hits me, I have to run back with my balls in my hand or risk losing my near 1 million vehicle to a suit that costs a FRACTION of that. And you dare complain about your ****** bunny hopping suit? Meh. I know you're technically picking a fight with me, but I kind of love this post anyway XD
Decasor The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 18	Posted - 2013.07.24 22:00:00 - [9] - Quote 'Should we give up'? No, but i'm definitely thinking of a several month break. So many things in the game (not just scout suits) that are simply not fun, or get very stale quickly. Hoping things are better when I get back from a much needed break. 99% of this is map size and players per side. Who knows if given the lolPS3 that CCP can even do anything about that. When I heard 'massively' multi player, small maps and 16 per side definitely wasn't what I had in mind
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 402	Posted - 2013.07.25 13:56:00 - [10] - Quote Good post, OP. Gallente Scout Shotgunner here; your description of our plight is dead on. I'm adding you to the Scout Registry: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90055 We're about 140 strong and represent a large percentage of Dust's remaining Scout Community. Swing by anytime. - Shotty GoBang

Lucifalic Baked n Loaded 16	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:13:00 - [11] - Quote It's a hard knock life for u. It's a hard knock life for us.
Cosgar ParagonX 3177	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:14:00 - [12] - Quote You guys need to start checking the weekly updates topic in Feedback/Requests.
Lucifalic Baked n Loaded 16	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:24:00 - [13] - Quote Cosgar wrote: You guys need to start checking the weekly updates topic in Feedback/Requests. Nothing on there about scouts
Mechoj Nomreps Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 81	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:31:00 - [14] - Quote Well, I still own matches as a shotty scout with remotes at the moment and almost always have a kd above 1 nowadays. I do only play skirmishes though and the only map I am lousy on is manus, too much open space on that one. I still notice hit detection issues with my shotgun which is most of the times the reason I die actually. I am using a minmatar advanced scout with a standard shotgun, two complex shield extenders, enhand kin kat and enhanced cardiac and remotes for this.
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 43	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:33:00 - [15] - Quote AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: - Scout = Tissue Paper, No Protection, No Stealth, No Point Seriously? Just stop right there. I run with low level crap and the only thing that I can't take are vehicles and heavies that notice me. Dren Scout G-1. Basic Light Damage Modifier. Dren Shotgun. Militia Locus Grenades. Flux Active Scanner. Militia Kinetic Catalyzer. Basic Profile Dampener. No stealth? You kidding? I run in and out of the enemy redline with this set up. I can run around a group with a lot less problems than other suits. I usually take three to four down with me when I run into a small cluster, bro. This is for all game modes.
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 258	Posted - 2013.07.25 14:38:00 - [16] - Quote HYENAKILLER X wrote: I would advise you to. Once people realize with proper spacing and developing beter aiming skills scouts without flaylocks are almost guaranteed kills. Dont get me wrong they get objectives quick and do get kills. But they do drop easy. The speed at which lav's deploy negates that. At least they arent free anymore. I am not going to complain too much though. If a scout plays tactically they can do fine (this doesnt include PC as I dont play that yet) All the things people have listed need to be addressed but a scout playing properly and picking his battles can do well. I just wish they will properly balance other suits to have to do the same. On the Flaylock front, it is the weapon I invested most into (Pro Lv3) because I didnt want to go SMG again but the truth is I use my Exile, remote explosives and adv nova knives way more on my sneaking scout suit.
Heligg LA 501 eme Citizens of Nowhere 15	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:32:00 - [17] - Quote I really agree with scouts here. I'm minmatar scout with shotgun. I started playing it in ealy beta and i think we are living the worth time off our history :) With maxed HP on proto gear i have 350 of total hp , 80 of witch are non repareable armor. An the insane regen rate doesnt compensate if i dont have time to get cover. Now that proto assault and logi are frequent ,Shotguns dont one shoot anymore, that was what kept scout going for me , but now it doesnt. I don't play for my ratio , I know a big role for scouts is to disturb the enemy, But now logi and assault are not affraid anymore. I'm still very effective at killing heavys , but heavys are never allone so it becomes a suicide ganking. To counter this i have get deapper in my strategies: - Front attack is now nearly impossible.I always have to run 2 miles to go flanking but it is sometimes anoying. More than that flanking is now worth only 1/2 off the time. - I need incursion shotgun, but it needs something more , probably a quicker reload time.( I hope the patch on shoguns comes soon but i 'not sure it will solve everything) - I try some weird stuff, like ninja explosive dropping, but its not always fun. In conclusion, i'm waiting for the new shotgun, and i hope it comes soon. To buff scouts a bit, i would give it a few more HP and do something about whats i say below. One more thing , there is NO viable fitting without a CPU enhancer .So the SECOND LOW SLOT IS FAKE.
Doyle Reese OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 317	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:34:00 - [18] - Quote well I can already foresee 1.4 making Scout problems even worse
Orion Vahid DUST University Ivy League 88	Posted - 2013.07.25 19:37:00 - [19] - Quote Give my Heavy suit some luv or I will cry
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 259	Posted - 2013.07.25 20:02:00 - [20] - Quote @Heligg - Not true about your setup I have a proto minnie with 400 ehp, it has 1hp/s repair from using a reactive plate and I have an adv ScR and adv FP and a grenade with no need for a CPU enhancer. And I dont have Electronics or Engineering maxxed out. Shield, armor and core upgrades are at Lv4 Fitting an Adv suit - now that is a Meereenese Knot You need to be factual about the issues so we can legitimately argue for realistic buffs.

Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 112	Posted - 2013.07.25 20:18:00 - [21] - Quote Alas, scouts are in a sad state... So sad, in fact, that I ditched my scout build for an HMG weilding heavy. Now I get to have two different builds on this character that are in a sad state, YAY!
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns 356	Posted - 2013.07.25 20:21:00 - [22] - Quote my cheapo shotty-scout that's half BPOs performs pretty well and is great in any game where clone count doesn't matter. So it sucks outside of skirmish. Gallente scout gets the shaft with armor plate penalties though.
Heligg LA 501 eme Citizens of Nowhere 15	Posted - 2013.07.25 20:38:00 - [23] - Quote @ Daxxis yes thats what i used. But you have to sacrifice heavily on your fire power and/or equipement. edit: I have to admit i had never tried reactive plates, and they seem to do the trick
Heligg LA 501 eme Citizens of Nowhere 15	Posted - 2013.07.25 22:30:00 - [24] - Quote ty daxxis reactive plates are great


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