DUST Search - An argument for a re-spec (From someone who has his stuff in the right place)

Jason Pearson wrote:

Guinevere Bravo wrote:

Sorry No respecs, i dont want new FOTM builds EVERY month.

At the end of the day the Calogi will either be brought back inline, which is fair correct? You know even playing field.

Or its going to be worse than the other suits, which well 'SUCKS TO BE YOU!' says the currently grossly underpowered Amarr Logi.

No suit should be better or worse than another. Which makes this respec thing a non arguement.

If the people who have been padding their stats for the last 2 months running the FOTM suit then now its their turn to show us 'how good they really are' by playing and doing their job with a suit thats not god mode.

Id be pissed if my suit got nerfed. But ive had enough experiance with MMO's, if something is too good to be true then it probably is, and will get nerfed into the ground.

Sigh.
Would it not be fairer to bring every thing in line, balanced and effective, and then offer a re-spec so you can choose what you want to be rather than you chose this suit, you're stuck with it despite it being good previously? It's not just aimed at the callogi suit (personally never used it.) It's the same with Vehicles, Maybe I want to be a Minmatar Tanker rather than a Caldari Tanker, is it fair I don't get that racial option?

Again, the same with heavies, maybe I want to be a Caldari Heavy, but I am stuck with Amarr. Would it not be fairer to announce a re-spec for when they've got the basic things in and then no more re-specs from that point?

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Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2080	Posted - 2013.07.24 09:30:00 - [1] - Quote CCP, you once said you would not re-spec unless there was a major ** up, truth is, there's been a major up that ya'll seem to be ignoring. You change the skills whenever you feel like, in addition you're also planning on an "overhaul" for vehicles, chances are you're probably going to of Vehicle and Anti Vehicle players alike (One must assume the worst when dealing with CCP). Personally, I'll persist with HAVs, even if a re-spec comes around, because despite the nuisances I find great enjoyment in the vehicle side of the game, and I mean, how much worse can it get for a Vehicle player? (Don't answer that, seriously, don't give them ideas.) I have all my skills in the right places and my character will just keep getting better and better. But for other players, especially narrow minded ones, they've gotten themselves into a situation where their playstyle is obsolete because the options YOU offered them changed after they'd spec'd into them. Take KingBabar for example, I've squaded with him previously, he is the closest you can get to an Assault Logi player, always slaying and running support putting Killers and Supports to shame, he chose the option of going Callogi, yes a bad move overall but the numbers were solid when he started doing it. Now the numbers have changed, along with the required play style, we can argue that they're being punished for using the FOTM, but is that fair? With such little information coming to the players, many don't take the view I do (Assume the worst) and hope for the best, so they run the numbers and if it works out, they go with it, really they're being punished for being smarter than average players. A re-spec needs to happen, yes, but not right now. CCP I understand you want to have years of expansion in DUST, so I'm not going to say you need to re-spec every expansion, what you need to do is perfect the basic balance of the weapons and suits. With the Vehicles you need to have the Prototype hulls available (not the variants). Focus on the core balance, once that's in place offer a re-spec to every player, and none of this "Message support" either, because you're alienating a large portion of your playerbase who don't get on the forums to read every announcement you post. Every expansion will have changes, if you introduce a weapon or vehicle and it doesn't work out, remove it and refund the SP until the is balanced. I don't really care too much if EVE players come here and *** about how the had to suffer through nerfs and buffs without a re-spec, that's your fault EVE players, you didn't complain, you didn't try, so instead of bitching about it now, try a little.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 823	Posted - 2013.07.24 09:34:00 - [2] - Quote Great. Another thread rehashing the same old arguments as if we haven't been through all of this already. Oh and: NO
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 764	Posted - 2013.07.24 09:37:00 - [3] - Quote I said it before and will say it again: I spec'd into Amarr assault and laser weapons because I wanted to be an assault player with lasers. Regardless of what changes may come these items, I know it will only be because CCP is trying to make it better fit that role. I did not spec into a logistics suit in hopes of becoming an assault player. If you did, that's your fault and I do not sympathize with you. That said, the wording of the vehicle overhaul they are doing around Uprising 1.5 does sound like it is going to warrant another optional respec.
Panther Alpha DarkWingsss 747	Posted - 2013.07.24 09:43:00 - [4] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I said it before and will say it again: I spec'd into Amarr assault and laser weapons because I wanted to be an assault player with lasers. Regardless of what changes may come these items, I know it will only be because CCP is trying to make it better fit that role. I did not spec into a logistics suit in hopes of becoming an assault player. If you did, that's your fault and I do not sympathize with you. That said, the wording of the vehicle overhaul they are doing around Uprising 1.5 does sound like it is going to warrant another optional respec. Or a total Sp reset...I wonder if eventually they going to be forced to reset all the data.
Bendtner92 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 784	Posted - 2013.07.24 09:44:00 - [5] - Quote They said no more resets unless something catastrophic happens. They have not said this about respecs, although they did kind of say the recent respec was a one-time deal. This game should have respecs in some sort of way though.
PsychoLogiKal PsyDrei ZionTCD 46	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:01:00 - [6] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: That said, the wording of the vehicle overhaul they are doing around Uprising 1.5 does sound like it is going to warrant another optional respec. You are the second person today I've had to correct, The vehicle overhaul is patch 1.4 as has been stated all over this forum from multiple sources. Not 1.5
Bendtner92 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 785	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:04:00 - [7] - Quote PsychoLogiKal PsyDrei wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: That said, the wording of the vehicle overhaul they are doing around Uprising 1.5 does sound like it is going to warrant another optional respec. You are the second person today I've had to correct, The vehicle overhaul is patch 1.4 as has been stated all over this forum from multiple sources. Not 1.5 Maybe you should check your sources again (IWS isn't a trusted source mind you). https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1094594#post1094594 Quote: We need to take a full pass on vehicles/turrets/modules as a whole. This as you can imagine is a lot of work. It is a priority for us but donGÇÖt expect to see significant updates until 1.5. We need a good chunk of time to get through it all..
richiesutie 2 Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS. 188	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:05:00 - [8] - Quote Yay for respecs!!!
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 764	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:05:00 - [9] - Quote Thank you Bendtner92 for saving me the time to correct him.
PsychoLogiKal PsyDrei ZionTCD 46	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:06:00 - [10] - Quote It says 1.4 AND 1.5 for vehicle updates read again.

Bendtner92 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 787	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:10:00 - [11] - Quote PsychoLogiKal PsyDrei wrote: It says 1.4 AND 1.5 for vehicle updates read again. So i stand corrected as in its ALSO in 1.5 not JUST 1.4 Also in your quote i Like how you left out the preceeding line that stated they would be in 1.4 as well......nice manipulation of data. 1.4 is for vehicle collision fixes and small stuff like that. That's nothing about Derpships or HAVs, so yeah. 1.5 for vehicle overhaul.
Vyzion Eyri The Southern Legion 1059	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:13:00 - [12] - Quote Or simply change the whole SP system so that SP doesn't unlock new items so that there will never be need for respecs ever again, even when awesome new content like installations or MTACs or player-owned MCCs come out. Makes skills have powerful bonuses, however, so IT LOOKS LIKE you don't need SP, but in actual fact, to use a weapon to its maximum effectiveness, skilling into it is necessary. Also, make items COST MORE so it's not like players can get everything and still need to grind ISK to buy stuff.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2088	Posted - 2013.07.24 10:38:00 - [13] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Great. Another thread rehashing the same old arguments as if we haven't been through all of this already. Oh and: NO Rehashing of old arguments? I haven't demanded a re-spec right now because I ****** up in anyways, I'm asking to have the suits for each race, available, each basic vehicle and they're advanced and prototype levels, without bothering with the additional variants for now, possibly having a rifle for each race also (Rail, Assault, Scrambler, othernamehere). Make it balanced with each other so that when we add new items they can be adjusted according to the universal balance already in play. Then offer a re-spec to all players, not just those on the forums, because nobody will be able to argue in the future that their weapon is not balanced, because we spent months testing and balancing said weapon with the others and it was perfectly fine.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 725	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:08:00 - [14] - Quote Punishing FOTM players is that fair? when its blatently OP and used by everyone then yes Vehicle pilots skilled into vehicles for the long term Most tryhards skill into whats FOTM/OP to get the advantage and pad ther KDR, these are the short term players who only use whats OP and skill around that but they do not think about what happens after its fixed For FOTM players no respec for these scrubs, suck it up they knew they were using FOTM and skilled into it for the advantage, now its getting fixed deal with it
Guinevere Bravo SVER True Blood 267	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:21:00 - [15] - Quote Sorry No respecs, I dont want new FOTM builds EVERY month. At the end of the day the Calogi will either be brought back inline, which is fair correct? You know even playing field. Or its going to be worse than the other suits, which well 'SUCKS TO BE YOU!' says the currently grossly underpowered Amarr Logi. No suit should be better or worse than another. Which makes this respec thing a non arguement. The people who have been padding their stats for the last 2 months running FOTM suit have now got their Comeuppance. Its their turn to show us 'how good they really are' by playing and doing their job with a suit thats not god mode. Id be pissed if my suit got nerfed. But ive had enough experience with MMO's, if something is too good to be true then it probably is, and will get nerfed into the ground.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2088	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:26:00 - [16] - Quote Guinevere Bravo wrote: Sorry No respecs, i dont want new FOTM builds EVERY month. At the end of the day the Calogi will either be brought back inline, which is fair correct? You know even playing field. Or its going to be worse than the other suits, which well 'SUCKS TO BE YOU!' says the currently grossly underpowered Amarr Logi. No suit should be better or worse than another. Which makes this respec thing a non arguement. If the people who have been padding their stats for the last 2 months running the FOTM suit then now its their turn to show us 'how good they really are' by playing and doing their job with a suit thats not god mode. Id be pissed if my suit got nerfed. But ive had enough experiance with MMO's, if something is too good to be true then it probably is, and will get nerfed into the ground. Sigh. Would it not be fairer to bring every thing in line, balanced and effective, and then offer a re-spec so you can choose what you want to be rather than you chose this suit, you're stuck with it despite it being good previously? It's not just aimed at the callogi suit (personally never used it.) It's the same with Vehicles, Maybe I want to be a Minmatar Tanker rather than a Caldari Tanker, is it fair I don't get that racial option? Again, the same with heavies, maybe I want to be a Caldari Heavy, but I am stuck with Amarr. Would it not be fairer to announce a re-spec for when they've got the basic things in and then no more re-specs from that point?
Beren Hurin K-A-O-S theory 810	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:27:00 - [17] - Quote Have you even had one of those annoying passengers in your car that, when it gets a tad warm inside complains, "C'mon we REALLY need the A/C on in here!" and then proceeds to crank up the air to full blast? That is what asking for a respec is like. Just because its 'little' uncomfortable you want to have it completely different.
RydogV Shadow Company HQ 231	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:27:00 - [18] - Quote These are not the droids you are looking for. Move along, move along.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2089	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:29:00 - [19] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Have you even had one of those annoying passengers in your car that, when it gets a tad warm inside complains, "C'mon we REALLY need the A/C on in here!" and then proceeds to crank up the air to full blast? That is what asking for a respec is like. Just because its 'little' uncomfortable you want to have it completely different. It's nothing like what you've suggested, see my post above yours. It's not like having it hot a little bit and someone cranking up the A/C, it's like it being really hot but not having any A/C at all. ^_^
Guinevere Bravo SVER True Blood 268	Posted - 2013.07.24 11:39:00 - [20] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Sigh. Would it not be fairer to bring every thing in line, balanced and effective, and then offer a re-spec so you can choose what you want to be rather than you chose this suit, you're stuck with it despite it being good previously? It's not just aimed at the callogi suit (personally never used it.) It's the same with Vehicles, Maybe I want to be a Minmatar Tanker rather than a Caldari Tanker, is it fair I don't get that racial option? Again, the same with heavies, maybe I want to be a Caldari Heavy, but I am stuck with Amarr. Would it not be fairer to announce a re-spec for when they've got the basic things in and then no more re-specs from that point? They will bring everything inline, it just takes time! The solution for basic suits and weapons is to reduce the already low requirement, OR at least BUFF the basic suits so you arent squishy. What people dont realise is once you have maxed a suit and got the support skills, you can then jump into ANY suit in 6-8 weeks? At the end of the day we are going to run out of things to put SP into, we need something to aim for. And that will be new suits. We cant have everything in a year, Want to try something else? Start a new PSN and a alt to gather some SP for a month then jump on and test it out, thats what i do.

Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 828	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:05:00 - [21] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: Great. Another thread rehashing the same old arguments as if we haven't been through all of this already. Oh and: NO Rehashing of old arguments? I haven't demanded a re-spec right now because I ****** up in anyways, I'm asking to have the suits for each race, available, each basic vehicle and they're advanced and prototype levels, without bothering with the additional variants for now, possibly having a rifle for each race also (Rail, Assault, Scrambler, othernamehere). Make it balanced with each other so that when we add new items they can be adjusted according to the universal balance already in play. Then offer a re-spec to all players, not just those on the forums, because nobody will be able to argue in the future that their weapon is not balanced, because we spent months testing and balancing said weapon with the others and it was perfectly fine. I must have overseen the most important parts of your post in utter unjustified rage. I apologize for that. I actually find a final respec as you propose it acceptable (not optimal but the situation is not optimal to begin with), mainly to achieve more variety on the battlefield. But CCP has to change it's releases to being racially symmetric from that point on lest we want new players in the future to suffer from an issue that is functionally identical to what we have now, leaving us with the same problem just a year later when those who get into MTACS see their stuff rebalanced or new racial variants added later. Also i don't believe that we will ever achieve a state of balance in which constant changes to existing gear will no longer be needed. Balance can change with new fitting paradigms, new gamemodes/maps and new gear so adjustments will never really cease completely. They'll just be lower in significance and more targeted than what we have today (i actually see this trend picking up already). I don't think we can come up with a fair and coherent definition about what changes justify a respec, what don't and why if we focus on the "stuff shouldn't change" aspect as the primary justification. So while i will happily change my position in this case to "yes, but" i don't necessarily agree to the reasoning behind it as it could potentionally open the gates for an unlimited amount of respecs, or at least demands thereof, due to it being not specific enough. A suggestion by me that tries to solve this definition problem to properly justify it's limitations can be found here if you're interested. P.S. Thanks for not setting me on fire for my outburst.
thecoolest guy Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2013.07.24 12:37:00 - [22] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I said it before and will say it again: I spec'd into Amarr assault and laser weapons because I wanted to be an assault player with lasers. Regardless of what changes may come these items, I know it will only be because CCP is trying to make it better fit that role. I did not spec into a logistics suit in hopes of becoming an assault player. If you did, that's your fault and I do not sympathize with you. That said, the wording of the vehicle overhaul they are doing around Uprising 1.5 does sound like it is going to warrant another optional respec. Changing the stats on dropsuits and equipment in the name of balance is one thing. Changing the description of skills in the skill tree is another (especially ones you have invested in). How would you feel if you specced into Amarr assault for the 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up only for them to say one day - we are going to change your racial benefit to 1% CPU level and give the 5% level reduction to logistics. You specced into Amarr assault because of the description in the skill tree. If they change the skills, they should at least re-imburse you back for the skills you invested in that skill. There is a precedence for this. When they got the vehicle tree descriptions wrong when they first changed the skill tree people invested in the wrong skills solely based off the descriptions provided. When CCP realized their mistake - they fixed the skills that were incorrect and refunded the SP ONLY in the skills that were changed.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 828	Posted - 2013.07.24 13:05:00 - [23] - Quote thecoolest guy wrote: Changing the stats on dropsuits and equipment in the name of balance is one thing. Changing the description of skills in the skill tree is another (especially ones you have invested in). How would you feel if you specced into Amarr assault for the 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up only for them to say one day - we are going to change your racial benefit to 1% CPU level and give the 5% level reduction to logistics. You specced into Amarr assault because of the description in the skill tree. If they change the skills, they should at least re-imburse you back for the skills you invested in that skill. There is a precedence for this. When they got the vehicle tree descriptions wrong when they first changed the skill tree people invested in the wrong skills solely based off the descriptions provided. When CCP realized their mistake - they fixed the skills that were incorrect and refunded the SP ONLY in the skills that were changed. Not directed to me but: I'd object to the notion that you ( the general "you", you've made your opinion clear) skill into amarr assaults specifically for the numbers and bonuses themselves. You'd rather skill into amarr assault because you wanted to be. 1. amarr 2. assault Thus the exact values or bonuses of a skill are only relevant in such a way that they need to reflect the nature of the suit (or any gear in general) and make it viable in its designated niche without overpowering others. You example would be bad balancing, not just because it changed the way skills behave but because it's neither particularily representive of this particular race nor very helpfull in enabling the suit to fullfill it's designated role. The vehicle skill descriptions are hard to pin down because their description made them look much more usefull than they actually were but, again, not solely by virtue of them being innacurate (that's another issue that should always be fixed directly, independantly of any respec debate) but because their real behavior (cpu bonuses for PG mods instead of PG boost) was actually not usefull for many tank fits and somewhat counter to the style of gallente ones specifically (why would you encourage using up low slots when you need them for your armor plates). The swapped bonuses of the cal logi would be an example of it doing right as many players thought that those two bonuses where counter to the respective suits' roles to begin with. Neither of them constitutes an alienation fom the caldari shield tanking paradigm or makes any of those suits less usefull in doing their jobs. It just reinforces the respective roles and associated playstyles. Logis should not tank sustained damage because they are designed to operate behind the lines while assaults should specifically do just that.
Duran Lex Silver Talon Corporation 84	Posted - 2013.07.24 13:13:00 - [24] - Quote OP - i assume you feel Flaylock users should also get a respec? If not that would be pretty hypocritical Mr. Logissault...
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 888	Posted - 2013.07.24 13:30:00 - [25] - Quote Not you too Son of Pear! Hell no! I'm fed up of having to say it. If Barbar wants his assault logi, he still has it. It just isn't OP like it used to be. These tryhards have been brought back down to reasonable amounts of HP again, and suddently they've realised that they will no longer be able to take on entire enemy squads on their own. So they kick up a stink. I chose something I liked, so did you. No matter wether it's UP or OP, we'll always be our respective roles at heart. Other people saw gigantic numbers on their calculators and thought "well I really wanted that Amarr suit, but CalLogi it is". Now that the suit actually does what it's supposed to do, all these Logissault scrubs have to join the mortal world again, and they don't like it.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 888	Posted - 2013.07.24 13:31:00 - [26] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: OP - i assume you feel Flaylock users should also get a respec? If not that would be pretty hypocritical Mr. Logissault... He's not a logi.
Duran Lex Silver Talon Corporation 86	Posted - 2013.07.24 13:43:00 - [27] - Quote Duran Lex wrote: OP - i assume you feel Flaylock users should also get a respec? If not that would be pretty hypocritical Mr. Defender of Logissaults... My apologies, fixed.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2772	Posted - 2013.07.24 14:01:00 - [28] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Guinevere Bravo wrote: Sorry No respecs, i dont want new FOTM builds EVERY month. At the end of the day the Calogi will either be brought back inline, which is fair correct? You know even playing field. Or its going to be worse than the other suits, which well 'SUCKS TO BE YOU!' says the currently grossly underpowered Amarr Logi. No suit should be better or worse than another. Which makes this respec thing a non arguement. If the people who have been padding their stats for the last 2 months running the FOTM suit then now its their turn to show us 'how good they really are' by playing and doing their job with a suit thats not god mode. Id be pissed if my suit got nerfed. But ive had enough experiance with MMO's, if something is too good to be true then it probably is, and will get nerfed into the ground. Sigh. Would it not be fairer to bring every thing in line, balanced and effective, and then offer a re-spec so you can choose what you want to be rather than you chose this suit, you're stuck with it despite it being good previously? It's not just aimed at the callogi suit (personally never used it.) It's the same with Vehicles, Maybe I want to be a Minmatar Tanker rather than a Caldari Tanker, is it fair I don't get that racial option? Again, the same with heavies, maybe I want to be a Caldari Heavy, but I am stuck with Amarr. Would it not be fairer to announce a re-spec for when they've got the basic things in and then no more re-specs from that point? Your not stuck with anything (well apart from amarr heavies, their something of a special case), the fact that have level 5 in racial whatever doesn't mean that you can't skill into another racial variant, you'll just have to take the long path like all new players have too, and all tiers of it will get tested by both new and experienced players. You'll end up with 2 racial specs instead of 1. The answer here is HTFU and start grinding that SP.


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