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King Trigger
DUST University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 19:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Some of the comments I've posted recently kind of sum up to this, but in hopes that someone at CCP consistently reads this stuff, I'm going to make a new thread. I love that this game is actively changing and evolving into something better, so I hope I can help.
It seems like it would be hard to constantly keep immersion in mind while working on the mechanics. On the forums you could read all day long about over-powered this and under-powered that and fittings and skills and stomping...and putting out all those fires has to be tough. Not discounting that. But it seems to me that efforts to "fix" specific issues are causing the game to lose self-consistency.
A fictional anecdotal example: A squad of guys working pretty well together encounters a tank in a moderately open area. That tank has two anti-personnel turrets and lots of armor, etc. In DUST, you throw a few AV grenades at it, or get your AV guy to take some shots at it and you can, at the very least, get the tanker to run and protect his investment. In real life, though, that squad would be pretty much screwed unless they can find cover and retreat or fire off some AV weaponry at it. But even then...you can fire several RPGs at a modern tank and there's still a pretty good chance the guys inside will be okay. Now, I'm not advocating that tanks become God Mode, but it's something to think about.
For another example, take the HMG. HMGs in real life are far from mobile, but I'm willing to accept that it's the future so maybe they can get carried around by hand now. Whatever. But let's say I'm an assault type character, and I come into a hallway where a HMG is looking right at me. In DUST, I could jump and strafe my way down the hallway, get to one side of the gunner and there's about a 50/50 chance I could take him out if I was firing my rifle the whole time. In real life, if that gun manages to open fire on me at the end of the hallway, I'm going to be swiss cheese in no time flat. But, let's take the same two guys at some distance in an open area; I'm on top of a building and the heavy gunner is guarding the door of an adjacent building. In DUST, I could take pot shots at the heavy with complete safety since his bullets literally don't go as far as mine. In real life, I could take pot shots, but if he opened fire on me, I'd be in trouble and have to seek cover immediately if I didn't kill him with the first couple of shots. So in that situation, the consistency is closer to where it needs to be, but not there yet.
One more. Drop ships (or most vehicles, really) and small arms. Shooting an SMG at a dropship at close range. In DUST, there's a good chance you could get its shields down after a short time, and if there's no pilot or he's really dumb, you might even be able to take it out. In real life, your gun would burn up long before you put enough rounds into its armor to do any real damage. And we haven't even invented shields in real life so who knows how much that would complicate things.
DUST, CCP and New Eden have this "play hardball or GTFO" kind of thing going, which adds to what little immersion there is in this game. So maybe, instead of always putting out fires and addressing specific user complaints with specific fixes, the balancing and design should be looked at from a different perspective. I think this would really go a long way toward building the team-oriented, tactical kind of shooter we're looking to see DUST grow into. Or at least that's what I'm looking for.
Please resist the urge to pick apart my little stories with geeky facts and stats...I'm not in the military nor am I particularly knowledgeable about tactics, technology, arms or anything like that so sorry if my impressions are wrong. All that I know is what I've picked up from games or friends or the news. But I think my point is fairly sound and hopefully fairly clear. |
Jimthefighter
Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.07.23 21:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
However, to your real-life analogue, in DUST, the driver is also the main gunner, where in real life, the driver might also control a driver-side machine-gun. With that difference, you could have one person on the team, in a tank, be able to take-down/suppress 2-4 AV types, while having 1-3 infantry finally taking them down. You have to have some balance in how hard it is to take down a tank, and how many people should have to operate a tank.
So if it only takes 1 person to drive a tank and man the main gun (most times, the main gun is the very damaging/worrying part of the tank), it should only take 1-2 people to take the tank down. That said, if it only takes 1-2 people to take tanks out, tanks should be cheaper. And if it takes more people to fully man a tank, it should take more dedicated AVers to take it down.
Just some thoughts. I also agree to the dropships needing a HP buff or a cost cut. Right now they are a bit too expensive for how vulnerable they are. Maybe more comments later. |
King Trigger
DUST University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 21:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks Jim, good point about the tanks. Having to have several guys in a tank would be a good step toward balancing it out without sacrificing realism, probably. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1291
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 22:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
King Trigger wrote:Some of the comments I've posted recently kind of sum up to this, but in hopes that someone at CCP consistently reads this stuff, I'm going to make a new thread. I love that this game is actively changing and evolving into something better, so I hope I can help.
It seems like it would be hard to constantly keep immersion in mind while working on the mechanics. On the forums you could read all day long about over-powered this and under-powered that and fittings and skills and stomping...and putting out all those fires has to be tough. Not discounting that. But it seems to me that efforts to "fix" specific issues are causing the game to lose self-consistency.
A fictional anecdotal example: A squad of guys working pretty well together encounters a tank in a moderately open area. That tank has two anti-personnel turrets and lots of armor, etc. In DUST, you throw a few AV grenades at it, or get your AV guy to take some shots at it and you can, at the very least, get the tanker to run and protect his investment. In real life, though, that squad would be pretty much screwed unless they can find cover and retreat or fire off some AV weaponry at it. But even then...you can fire several RPGs at a modern tank and there's still a pretty good chance the guys inside will be okay. Now, I'm not advocating that tanks become God Mode, but it's something to think about.
For another example, take the HMG. HMGs in real life are far from mobile, but I'm willing to accept that it's the future so maybe they can get carried around by hand now. Whatever. But let's say I'm an assault type character, and I come into a hallway where a HMG is looking right at me. In DUST, I could jump and strafe my way down the hallway, get to one side of the gunner and there's about a 50/50 chance I could take him out if I was firing my rifle the whole time. In real life, if that gun manages to open fire on me at the end of the hallway, I'm going to be swiss cheese in no time flat. But, let's take the same two guys at some distance in an open area; I'm on top of a building and the heavy gunner is guarding the door of an adjacent building. In DUST, I could take pot shots at the heavy with complete safety since his bullets literally don't go as far as mine. In real life, I could take pot shots, but if he opened fire on me, I'd be in trouble and have to seek cover immediately if I didn't kill him with the first couple of shots. So in that situation, the consistency is closer to where it needs to be, but not there yet.
One more. Drop ships (or most vehicles, really) and small arms. Shooting an SMG at a dropship at close range. In DUST, there's a good chance you could get its shields down after a short time, and if there's no pilot or he's really dumb, you might even be able to take it out. In real life, your gun would burn up long before you put enough rounds into its armor to do any real damage. And we haven't even invented shields in real life so who knows how much that would complicate things.
DUST, CCP and New Eden have this "play hardball or GTFO" kind of thing going, which adds to what little immersion there is in this game. So maybe, instead of always putting out fires and addressing specific user complaints with specific fixes, the balancing and design should be looked at from a different perspective. I think this would really go a long way toward building the team-oriented, tactical kind of shooter we're looking to see DUST grow into. Or at least that's what I'm looking for.
Please resist the urge to pick apart my little stories with geeky facts and stats...I'm not in the military nor am I particularly knowledgeable about tactics, technology, arms or anything like that so sorry if my impressions are wrong. All that I know is what I've picked up from games or friends or the news. But I think my point is fairly sound and hopefully fairly clear.
The problem you point out is definitely real, but it stems mainly from the AR nerf brigade which, so far, has been successful in getting anything that challenges the AR hegemony nerfed. I've been crusading on these forums to try to get CCP to notice, and to realize how damaging to the game overall. Currently, we have all AR all the time to the point that vehicles seem more like targets than threats.
There's no diversity or depth in Dust because of the AR nerf brigade.
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ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
1292
|
Posted - 2013.07.26 22:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lulz... Buster you're such a troll.
You aren't cursading to get anything balanced. You just wanted to keep your FOTM flaylock pistol from getting nerfed. |
RINON114
B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance
344
|
Posted - 2013.07.27 02:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
I just had a thought: How about tanks receiving a shield bonus when extra crew members get in? The lore could be simple in that the suit itself is plugged into the vehicles own systems. Perhaps even players with armour repair modules could assimilate their systems with a tank to give it a small but worthwhile reason to get into a tank.
Imagine if you could have a tank that has the same hp as tanks van have but with minor advantages like 15hp/s armour regen (3 complex reppers from the dropsuit). I think this could open many possibilities for fantastic builds and tactics. |
King Trigger
DUST University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 15:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
One thing's for sure: if tanks were created to be more powerful the more players were in them, there would be infinitely more people on these forums complaining about people stealing or intruding in vehicles. |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
395
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 15:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
OP your thread is long and has no point. |
King Trigger
DUST University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 15:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'll grant you that it's long, but why don't you think it has a point? Would you rather that I make ten different threads each asking for a specific "fix"? |
King Trigger
DUST University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 15:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tell you what. I'll add a TL;DR statement to the end. The point is that instead of trying to tweak little things here and there, I think the dev team's time would be better spent fixing overarching inconsistencies, and maybe some of the little balance issues would fix themselves. |
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Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
424
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 16:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Lulz... Buster you're such a troll.
You aren't cursading to get anything balanced. You just wanted to keep your FOTM flaylock pistol from getting nerfed. And your crusading to keep your FOTY ARs untouched and unchallenged.
It is the ARnerf brigade that cause respecs by making fun guns unusable, so people want respecs to go into new, unwrecked guns. |
King Trigger
DUST University Ivy League
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 16:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
And maybe I can clarify since I've just been reading a bunch of posts on the feedback/request section here. What I mean is that when people are arguing back and forth about whether to nerf ARs or not (for example), CCP shouldn't just give in to one side or the other...they should be thinking through it: What is the range that a real-life assault rifle has? What kind of damage can it do to different types of armor? Instead of just balancing the game based on numbers and statsGÇöwhich seems to be what they're doingGÇöI think they should make sure to use common-sense parallels to the real weapons and equipment, or to believable sci-fi gear as the case may be.
But, if everyone thinks I'm full of crap and this thread should sink to the bottom of the ocean, then fine. :) I'm already pushing it by telling CCP how to do their jobs when they already let me play their game for free. |
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