DUST Search - Gear based matchmaking = everyone smiles

Malkai Inos wrote:

Now that your second post mentions higher payouts let me reiterate my point one with this in mind.

So playing in tier 4 or 5 feels different than the lower tiers in what respct? Every one has better gear and everyone (good enough) gets enough ISK to run PRO all day long(more on that in the next paragraph). The relative power between all players is exactly the same. The game plays just as in tier 2 with just STD gear, maybe with a higher TTK due to a shifted dmg/eHP ratio. Going proto means exactly nothing as it forces you to play against equally strong (or stronger) proto fits, negating the purpose of PRO gear in the first place. All it does is even further raising the barrier of entry for higher tier matches as, with same or similar gear, passive skill bonuses are what makes the difference. It also reduces variety in higher tiers as only min-maxing yelds competitive results.

Also problematic is the fact that PRO was never intended to be your "lvl80" gear that you reach and then use regularly just because you can. It's the edge on the battlefield that you are willing to pay large sums of ISK for in battles where loosing is not an option. Note that your proposition negates this aspect aswell as joining higher tier matches makes running PRO outright mandatory.

The fact that so many people can affort running PRO day in day out is an issue by itself that should be adreesed. It's not supposed to be that way and your proposition would make PRO a throwaway commodity as long as you keep performing well in high tier pub matches. PRO should be special, not routine.

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Gogo O'Dell Psygod9 RISE of LEGION 8	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:04:00 - [1] - Quote Okay, with the exception of a few obviously abused weapons (Charybdis + Flaylock), proper matchmaking would quell mutch of what is going to be called a rebellion on the forums, sometimes down the road. First, off, I am a tanker first, and foremost, but I've messed around with a callogi/mass-driver fit (i actually am i logi, though), and I have pretty amazing Charybdis, with alts that have lasers, flaylocks, snipers, ars forges, swarms, av nades, and just about every weapon at the STD level (that includes lolcannon), so i have a pretty fair scope on how this game works. I also have been proto stomped on my alts, proto-stompED with my main, and played more CB/PC battles than a lot of players who started in Uprising have played games. Second, a huge issue with new players leaving is that they play in the academy (hell, I love the academy, as battles are very dynamic and balanced) and love the game. The tanks are balanced against the AV (ive taken somas in there and gone 20:0 with a stock fit), but then other tanks get slaughtered by MLT av (provided there are a couple guys using it). There are also 1-0 redline rails or rifles in the average dom or skirmy, so most of the fighting is very balanced. The only thing missing from those battles is teamwork, and honestly, the flow of battle resembles a lot of PC battles I've played with 2 good corps fighting eachother to the bitter end. However, the problem arises when they hit 2 mil SP or 10k WP and are thrown into the equivilant of null-sec. Now, I don't know how many of you play Eve, but TRY taking a Rifter with a very basic fit into null-sec by yourself, or even with similarly geared friends and see how long it takes you to instantaneously burst into flames the second you exit a gate- that is what leaving the battle academy feels like., although not a perfect comparison. Matchmaking based on WP or SP sounds like a great idea, and it is, if not for some strangely UP or OP things-> tanks, LLAVs, flaylocks, and dropships. First, tanks don't ACTUALLY suck as bad as people think they do when they aren't going against squads of PROTO AV. The issue is, if my character, Charlotte O'Dell is put in a match against Cubs and DS, then there is no way that tank will last more than 2 minutes after leaving the redline, should they decide that I don't get to tank that match. The case is not their proto gear, or my standard gear, but that they are being put together. I do not stand a chance. Even in Chromosome, it was pretty hard. During the Chromosome cup, PFBHz (newer crew) went against Team Players (old crew). It was pretty fun. I was using a relatively cheap fit for the time (around 800K) and every time they called in a tank (i think they had 1 tanker), i stomped the living hell out of it, but the problem was when Cubs decided that he didn't like me beating up on his team, so he chased me down and eventually took me out, but it wasnt nearly as easy as it would be for him, now. It was still a standard tank and he has a Gastun's forge, but I didn't get 2HK'd by the thing as i would, right now. That is a pretty good balance. A good tanker (although not on the same level as the G1 tankers of the time) against a good AV player and the proto av won, but not instantly. I apologize for the story, but it does show that tanks were relatively balanced in Chromosome. Most tankers of the day didn't last more than 2 minutes outside of the rail against a couple proto AV guys, but the really good tankers of the time (Zitro, Hotch, Caeli, and Slap) were the most terrifying things on the battlefield every time I encountered them (i was still very new at that point). This meant that tanks were not win buttons, but potentially devistating weapons that required the pilot to know exactly what he was doing to succeed, much like the mass driver or duvolle on an assault are right now. There were games I would net 770k ISK when I was playing very well and the enemy team brought in countless vehicles, and others that I would get instakilled y better tankers or proto AV and die. In fact, killing tanks was an art back then. I remember this one time that I had my Sagaris and I was owning the team pretty much by myself; they didnt like that (was the 4 point map), so they set up an ambush for me with mines, forges, nades, and swarms. They baited me and suddenly I went from 7000 HP to 0 in less than 2 seconds. It took coordination, but it happened and they took out a 2.25 mil weapon in a second; now, this can be done by one man with LAI Dais and a swarm or forge. Tanks were farm from invincible if you could outthink them and infantry were paper targets if they didnt like thinking. I want to go back to that balance. As tanks stand now, they could never have that kind of game in anyone's hands against that kind of AV effort, which is very wrong. By putting standard gear tanks against standard AV, it would bring that kind of balance back where the good tankers are rewarded and the bad ones go broke in a few days. Another part of gear-based matchmaking is the social aspect: I have friends that are noobs and I want to play withthem without having to make them fight proto bears, which is the case right now. My proposal would allow for the possibility of equipping proto-gear to a suit, without having full proto, unless one chooses to do so. Tier 0- The Academy. 10k WP or 2M SP and kicked out. This only allows the newest players Tier 1- Not militia, only, but based on a system that would only allow a fit with a low-meta-level-sum into the field. This means I COULD bring a prototype AR, but id be putting it on a mlt suit with no modules. Now im not punished for having proto gear, but i cant stomp so easily with it. Tier 2- same concept as above, but allowing for the average all-standard gear fit. This where where you would see most tanks, as their gear does not exceed meta-1 (except some modules). PROTO av could be brought in here, but it wouldnt be possible to
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 760	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:16:00 - [2] - Quote There are two major gripes with gear based matchmaking i have: 1. Allowing players to opt out from fighting superiorly equipped players defeats the purpose of tiered gear as no one will join proto matches unless he's capable of using proto himself (or is a sniper, or a mudertaxi). Why investing the cash when it doesn't net you more power relative to the other players? Just use your SP advantage to pubstomp in heavily bonused STD fits. 2. In principle i think that players should not have the ability to choose who they fight against. Picking an enemy you can take on and running away when outmatched needs to be an important "meta skill". Varying tiers of gear within a match mean that you have to pay attention to what the enemy fields and react accordingly, even if the best course of action is flight.
Gogo O'Dell Psygod9 RISE of LEGION 8	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:18:00 - [3] - Quote stack damage mods and have 600k shields with it so any scrub with a sniper could one-shot the suit or the tank could insta-gib with its blaster upon seeing the player. Tier 3 - catered to advanced gear. A few tankers would show up here if they want to fit their meta 2,3, or 5 turrets and modules, or if they want challenge, but would mostly cater to the players with around 4-7mil SP who are not noobs anymore, but not quite ready to go against the proto gear. Tier 4- proto gear. no tanks would likely show their face here, and it would have a very high meta-sum limit, allowing all but the most decked out suits used by players with skills completely maxed out. Tier 5- Anything goes. Pretty much a PC battle. I would also like to add that payouts increase every single tier, so that losing 5 suits in a meta 1 battle would, allow, proportionally, the same profit as losing 5 suits in a tier 5 battle. This way, using the proper suit in the proper tier will allow everyone to profit. One could argue that it would allow the proto players to make more money, and it would, but consider how fast they lose it when one suit is gone. Currently, using a proto suit more than twice in a pub match equates to a net-loss of ISK. balancing this way allows the loss of possibly 5 suits in any tier with the same kind of gear, and proportionally similar profit. I like the number 5 because any less and the risk v reward becomes too much for the average player to profit, and any less becomes too easy and CoD-like. This means that in a Tier 1 battle, where most suits cost 20k isk, the payout is 5 times that, so it would be 100+ the WP, kills, and support that was given as a bonus. For a battle with proto suits (tier 5), payouts would be 1 mil. Tanks would still be getting shafted, the making a tank last 10 battles in a pub match to profit would be required, but it'd be easier to do so than it is, currently. Now, sure a squad of players who have been around forever could pop into a Tier 1 match and stomp the players their, but it would not be as bad as it is now and would have more to do with their skill as players and teamwork than their gear- it is the same in CoD (except for passive skills). Without balancing this way, tanks will need massive price reduction, a buff back to their former chromosome glory or better, or the addition of true proto tanks that can compete with proto av the same way std tanks do with std av. Finding what the meta-sum for any of the tiers in should be decided by the players and the devs working together, as we all know how the devs can cater to forum idiots. This proposal will balance the tanks we have right now, the newberry-QQ problem, and the proto players who are sick of challengless matches where a good battle happens once every 2 days, or only in PC.
WyrmHero1945 SyNergy Gaming EoN. 496	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:23:00 - [4] - Quote Gear based matchmaking has too many variables. For example what if I'm using a proto wweapon with a STD suit? What if I wanna use basic LR with the Amarr proto Assault? Sorry that I didn't read your whole post as it's too long lol. Gear based matchmaking also eliminates the element of surprise. For me it's exciting to not know what the hell is going to happen in the next match. With gear based I'd say let me use this prototype suit since everyone here will use the same. But the thing is that there are too many variables, as there are lots of combination of gear, and you'll separate our tiny player base way too much.
ugg reset Molon Labe. League of Infamy 333	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:27:00 - [5] - Quote not going to happen. not my words ether. The Devs haver already touched on the subject siting that they don't want to subdivide the pub player base. here is your text wall in summery below. _______________________________________________________________________________ tanker/ logi/ he only does everything. people who know what they're doing own in the academy. people who don't, don't. I want to change mach making because I don't wan't to fight people with good "... tanks, LLAVs, flaylocks, and dropships..." tanks aren't that weak right now but back in my day av was a nusence THINK OF THE CHILDREN* and we finally get to what he is suggesting. did you make it? *Children: from the Latin root noobus usuckuss
Avinash Decker BetaMax. CRONOS. 60	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:32:00 - [6] - Quote ugg reset wrote: not going to happen. not my words ether. The Devs haver already touched on the subject siting that they don't want to subdivide the pub player base. here is your text wall in summery below. _______________________________________________________________________________ tanker/ logi/ he only does everything. people who know what they're doing own in the academy. people who don't, don't. I want to change mach making because I don't wan't to fight people with good "... tanks, LLAVs, flaylocks, and dropships..." tanks aren't that weak right now but back in my day av was a nusence THINK OF THE CHILDREN* and we finally get to what he is suggesting. did you make it? *Children: from the Latin root noobus usuckuss Yes there's been a quote that the devs aren't doing a gear based matchmaking , it is a player skill based ( not skill points ) one . Im to lazy to find it though .
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 2747	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:36:00 - [7] - Quote When I think of gear based matchmaking I'm mixed, there's the very good arguments against it, but there's also the fact that the imbalance created by having proto gear of one thing and not having proto gear of another, take vehicles and AV as an,example. I honestly don't know of any games that has such stark advantages between tiers and throws everything onto the same battlefield without some form of tier matchmaking in place.
Malkai Inos Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 764	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:37:00 - [8] - Quote Now that your second post mentions higher payouts let me reiterate my point one with this in mind. So playing in tier 4 or 5 feels different than the lower tiers in what respct? Every one has better gear and everyone (good enough) gets enough ISK to run PRO all day long(more on that in the next paragraph). The relative power between all players is exactly the same. The game plays just as in tier 2 with just STD gear, maybe with a higher TTK due to a shifted dmg/eHP ratio. Going proto means exactly nothing as it forces you to play against equally strong (or stronger) proto fits, negating the purpose of PRO gear in the first place. All it does is even further raising the barrier of entry for higher tier matches as, with same or similar gear, passive skill bonuses are what makes the difference. It also reduces variety in higher tiers as only min-maxing yelds competitive results. Also problematic is the fact that PRO was never intended to be your "lvl80" gear that you reach and then use regularly just because you can. It's the edge on the battlefield that you are willing to pay large sums of ISK for in battles where loosing is not an option. Note that your proposition negates this aspect aswell as joining higher tier matches makes running PRO outright mandatory. The fact that so many people can affort running PRO day in day out is an issue by itself that should be adreesed. It's not supposed to be that way and your proposition would make PRO a throwaway commodity as long as you keep performing well in high tier pub matches. PRO should be special, not routine.
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 32	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:39:00 - [9] - Quote all that needs doing is to change the name of the academy to high sec and only allow std weapons, suits and fittings. nobody is excluded and nobody has a massive advantage in suit ehp or damage output.
Gogo O'Dell Psygod9 RISE of LEGION 17	Posted - 2013.07.23 00:40:00 - [10] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Now that your second post mentions higher payouts let me reiterate my point one with this in mind. So playing in tier 4 or 5 feels different than the lower tiers in what respct? Every one has better gear and everyone (good enough) gets enough ISK to run PRO all day long(more on that in the next paragraph). The relative power between all players is exactly the same. The game plays just as in tier 2 with just STD gear, maybe with a higher TTK due to a shifted dmg/eHP ratio. Going proto means exactly nothing as it forces you to play against equally strong (or stronger) proto fits, negating the purpose of PRO gear in the first place. All it does is even further raising the barrier of entry for higher tier matches as, with same or similar gear, passive skill bonuses are what makes the difference. It also reduces variety in higher tiers as only min-maxing yelds competitive results. Also problematic is the fact that PRO was never intended to be your "lvl80" gear that you reach and then use regularly just because you can. It's the edge on the battlefield that you are willing to pay large sums of ISK for in battles where loosing is not an option. Note that your proposition negates this aspect aswell as joining higher tier matches makes running PRO outright mandatory. The fact that so many people can affort running PRO day in day out is an issue by itself that should be adreesed. It's not supposed to be that way and your proposition would make PRO a throwaway commodity as long as you keep performing well in high tier pub matches. PRO should be special, not routine. To profit with proto gear, depending on the fit, requires skill, to an extent. Losing more than 2 = isk loss. Unless you want to nerf all proto gear, this will remain a game mechanic as it is possible to not die.\ THe only real reason to skill into proto gear with this system, is to be competitive in PC. Also, a good proto player could net 1 mil/match, while a bad one could lose 1 mil in the same gear.



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