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Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2031
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Posted - 2013.07.22 16:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
The easiest triangle to see in DUST is
Infantry > Anti Vehicle > Vehicle Rock > Scissors > Paper
Why is it, Infantry, the ones who are weak against Vehicles but strong against AVers have AV capability so they can fight both situation?
AV Grenades are strong, and if you're not an idiot, you can kill many tanks with them with ease, I mean, the majority of guys I squad with (Yes, a Tanker does squad with Infantry, amagad) just rush enemy tanks and kill them, especially armor tanks..
Thoughts? |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2034
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Soo, you were in a squad (6-man squad I assume, or at least 4-5?) and one or more guys in your squad was able to rush a tanker that was probably running solo and destroy him with AV nades from close range?
Would he be able to do the same to a tanker that was also in a 6-man squad, with support around him?
Although with that said, I kind of agree with you anyway. In my opinion AV nades are a hard counter to LAVs, but a little less against HAVs (in my mind), so a slight resistance on HAVs against AV nades probably wouldn't hurt? I'm thinking like a 20-30% resistance here?
It's between 2-6, I sometimes run with just Cro, and he solos tanks just fine. Support can be very situational too, sometimes you're engaged by an enemy team and unable to go stand next to the tank, so the AV just get's chucked from across the road and hits the Tank, it's quite fast.
But aye, I think it would be smart, not reducing the damage all around but different levels of effectiveness on different vehicles. |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2034
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jin Robot wrote:So why are tanks able to kill vehicles and infantry? You want to be able to attack infantry, but you dont want the to be able to attack you. I dont even know why I responded to this nonsense.
It was more of a question on peoples thoughts, not what I want really (In truth I'd love to just be in godmode ALL the time, in a scout suit with Nova knives, but alas, we cannot have it.)
It was more a look at the simplest triangle, things can happen such as Vehicles killing Vehicles, Infantry killing AV and other Infantry, AVers killing Vehicles, Infantry and other AVers, etc. |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2034
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:I still think that at least 4 people should be required to kill a good tank.
You know, I think that's a bad idea. No single player should require so many people to take them on, A skilled AVer should be able to solo a tank of equal meta, but it should require more effort than what there is at this moment in time. |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2035
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote: This is where having some dev feedback would be great, but we know how that goes.
When it comes to Vehicle Devs, you've got a better chance finding a Unicorn.
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Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2035
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:The Attorney General wrote:Cosgar wrote: Exactly! AV grenades are too powerful for the versatility they offer, diminishing the purpose of risk v reward. If anything, it should take at least 3~4 people with proto AV grenades to pop a tank, not just one guy camping a nanohive spamming them. I'm not even a tanker anymore and I know this.
I don't know if they need to have a whole bunch of people spamming them, because then the LLAVs will get away with too much. Maybe, not really sure on that. What I think would be a good move is make them have higher fitting requirements to enforce that sacrifice for having AV capability. Then introduce large capacity grenades so that a heavy AV guy can have a more specialized role on the battlefield. This is where having some dev feedback would be great, but we know how that goes. LLAVs are kind of a special case. They're not exactly hard to kill, just way too fast with way too much tank, especially the Cherry. I use boundless proximity mines, and they drive over them like they're not there. If anything they should be significantly slower than standard LAVs just like logi suits are slower than assaults. But like I said above, AV grenades should be a hard counter to light vehicles, but nearly useless when trying to solo a tank.
Idea, remove the Logistic variant from LAVs (Refund SP), make a MLV (Medium Logistic Vehicle), reduce speed to just a bit faster than a HAV (Slow HAVs down a tad) and then increase damage from hitting people (As that's apparently being fixed so that you will take some damage from running people over) |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2035
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Synthetic Waffles wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:The easiest triangle to see in DUST is
Infantry > Anti Vehicle > Vehicle Rock > Scissors > Paper
Why is it, Infantry, the ones who are weak against Vehicles but strong against AVers have AV capability so they can fight both situation?
AV Grenades are strong, and if you're not an idiot, you can kill many tanks with them with ease, I mean, the majority of guys I squad with (Yes, a Tanker does squad with Infantry, amagad) just rush enemy tanks and kill them, especially armor tanks..
Thoughts? i already talked about this and got spammed with "what a QQer"
It seems to be the way DUST is, they've got to accept theres a problem and understand it, otherwise you get told you're QQing :D |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2035
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bones McGavins wrote:Hard counters make for TERRIBLE game play. Nobody wants to be restricted to only fighting a small part of the battle. AV can kill infantry with side arms, tanks can kill AV if they are decent, why shouldnt infantry have an option to kill tanks if they are good?
As for the story about driving an LLAV up to a tank. You likely need a pretty well fit LLAV to do so without the tank destroying your ride. In addition to that, this doesnt work well if the tank is moving and not just standing still. Or if it has infantry support to kill you when you jump out.
Yes, one slow ass tank, sitting somewhere trying to freely snipe without danger is pretty vulnerable to this tactic.
Actually, I never said about making it so it would be just hard counters, we agree AV nades should work, but shouldn't be so easy to solo tanks. I mean echoing what people have said about PC, Tanks are used to counter other tanks, if one gets in amongst infantry it's very quick to kill them with nades. (Oh and apparently Flaylocks..) |
Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2035
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 17:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Jason Pearson wrote:Cosgar wrote:The Attorney General wrote:Cosgar wrote: Exactly! AV grenades are too powerful for the versatility they offer, diminishing the purpose of risk v reward. If anything, it should take at least 3~4 people with proto AV grenades to pop a tank, not just one guy camping a nanohive spamming them. I'm not even a tanker anymore and I know this.
I don't know if they need to have a whole bunch of people spamming them, because then the LLAVs will get away with too much. Maybe, not really sure on that. What I think would be a good move is make them have higher fitting requirements to enforce that sacrifice for having AV capability. Then introduce large capacity grenades so that a heavy AV guy can have a more specialized role on the battlefield. This is where having some dev feedback would be great, but we know how that goes. LLAVs are kind of a special case. They're not exactly hard to kill, just way too fast with way too much tank, especially the Cherry. I use boundless proximity mines, and they drive over them like they're not there. If anything they should be significantly slower than standard LAVs just like logi suits are slower than assaults. But like I said above, AV grenades should be a hard counter to light vehicles, but nearly useless when trying to solo a tank. Idea, remove the Logistic variant from LAVs (Refund SP), make a MLV (Medium Logistic Vehicle), reduce speed to just a bit faster than a HAV (Slow HAVs down a tad) and then increase damage from hitting people (As that's apparently being fixed so that you will take some damage from running people over) That's actually a good idea. You should probably suggest that in feedback/requests.
I actually had a few thousand words written up about a Vehicle overhaul, including things such as this, the SCV and even MTACs, but I lost it. Maybe I'll post this little bit in feedback, but I've got a feeling someone from CCP is casually going through these posts, I'll let them have the credit if they decide to take it from here ^_^
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Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2035
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Posted - 2013.07.22 17:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
stlcarlos989 wrote:Lets see LAVs are running around running people over so more infantry carry AV grenades to counter as opposed to anti infantry grenades.. Cause and effect.
To the OP you say you run in squads with infantry when you're in your tank. Not counting random idiot blueberries, do you usually run solo in your tank that has 3 guns on it? If you have those 2 gunners who are actually looking for enemies and killing them before they get close. I use AV grenades and getting close to a tank with no gunners is easy, but one with even just one gunner is a lot harder.
Another question do you use active scanner on your tank? Its incredible useful for yourself and the team.
So, I'll answer your questions but first, this isn't really me crying about AV Grenades, really more of a "just throwing the question out there" kind of thing.
So, squads. When tanking I run with 2-6 man squad, if it's two, we usually sit in the tank together or 6, I follow the Infantry, pushing forward as an assault vehicle when asked. As for the turrets, I run a Caldari Blaster, fitting anything more than missiles means I sacrifice survivability for people to use awful guns, one of which can't turn a full 360 degrees, Since the players I run with all run Prototype suits and weaponry, they're far more successful on the ground next to me rather than being instablapped by a grenadier. Active Scanners, all the time. They're very important when actively engaging infantry.
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Jason Pearson
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2035
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Posted - 2013.07.22 17:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Its not a triangle its a synergy loop vehicles need infantry, infantry needs vehicles.
At the most basic look, it is a triangle. Vehicle kills Infantry, Infantry kills Anti-Vehicle and Anti-Vehicle kills Infantry. I don't need a Tank to kill AVers, if I'm Infantry, I don't need Infantry if I'm killing a Tank from a vantage point and I don't need AV if I'm killing Infantry. |
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