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Cosgar
ParagonX
2942
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Posted - 2013.07.22 10:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
(Ughhh, not this again)
The MD is an area denial, anti-rush weapon by design. It has horrendous DPS, (lower than a MLT AR) a slow moving projectile with falloff, low field longevity, slow reload speed, and it's useless against elevated opponents. People complain about it because they try engage a MD user in their primary situation and win. I've been using the MD since Chrome, during the nerf/bug at the start of Uprising, and I'm still using it now. Aside from the sight still being kind of useless, the MD is actually in a really good place with damage/splash, even if both are significantly lower compared to Chrome and dropsuit EHP got a significant buff. If you see a MD on the kill feed, be careful in areas that have elevation and run the hell away when you start to take damage, not when your shields are down. It's called an area denial weapon because it's supposed to have enough of a radius and deal enough damage to deny someone of an area. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2949
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:As a Heavy, there is literally no way for me to avoid an even poorly placed MD shell. The radius is just too large, and I am just too slow.
+1 Ever stopped to think that the MD might be your hard counter? Even with reduced radius, a skilled MD user is still going to pop you. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2950
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:Cosgar wrote:Kekklian Noobatronic wrote:As a Heavy, there is literally no way for me to avoid an even poorly placed MD shell. The radius is just too large, and I am just too slow.
+1 Ever stopped to think that the MD might be your hard counter? Even with reduced radius, a skilled MD user is still going to pop you. Everything is a 'hard counter' to a heavy, while the HMG is a hard counter to basically nothing. Your argument is less valid. I'm not going to tell you how to play your class or anything, but as a logi, I play with a lot of heavies and sentinels. These guys average 15~20 kills a match whether I'm supporting them or not. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2952
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Posted - 2013.07.22 11:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Son Down wrote:Cosgar wrote:(Ughhh, not this again)
The MD is an area denial, anti-rush weapon by design. It has horrendous DPS, (lower than a MLT AR) a slow moving projectile with falloff, low field longevity, slow reload speed, and it's useless against elevated opponents. People complain about it because they try engage a MD user in their primary situation and win. I've been using the MD since Chrome, during the nerf/bug at the start of Uprising, and I'm still using it now. Aside from the sight still being kind of useless, the MD is actually in a really good place with damage/splash, even if both are significantly lower compared to Chrome and dropsuit EHP got a significant buff. If you see a MD on the kill feed, be careful in areas that have elevation and run the hell away when you start to take damage, not when your shields are down. It's called an area denial weapon because it's supposed to have enough of a radius and deal enough damage to deny someone of an area. Good points....exceeeeeept, on every map the sequence of events for a mass driver is as follows: 1. Get lift from dropship, or your own, by crashlanding it on the highest peak/building top. 2. Spam rounds infinitely, due to the fact the user is also a logi with a vast quantity of nanohives. 3. Repeat. Sound strategy, but there's always a counter: -Snipers -Someone piloting a DS up to take me out -Orbitals -Someone simply shooting back up at me with an AR
I actually do one of two things depending on my squad with a MD: -Run support from behind my team and pin down enemies. -Defend objectives with heavies. -Run around in a speed fitting using the breach MD like a ghetto shotgun. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2953
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Posted - 2013.07.22 12:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Bendtner92 wrote:Mass Drivers should just go back to 4 shots a clip. Which ones? There are 3 kinds and they each have different clip sizes. If you are suggesting all of them, then you don't understand variants and you don't realize how dumb this idea is. Either way, I don't think you get mass drivers. If you could only have 4 shots, with anything other than a ADV breach MD or Freedom MD, you would have to get 100% direct hits with your entire clip, and even then, heavily shielded players would likely survive. 4 shots takes like 3-4 seconds. Imagine asking an AR player to require 3-4 seconds of continuous uninterupted 100% accuracy to kill another player... Since when do AR's have splash radius? It's about damage being proportionate to clip size. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2963
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Posted - 2013.07.22 13:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Soldiersaint wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Before you hiss at me, hear me out on this. I have a feeling that the fix to splash radius, where before even if you were right over the explosive it won't do damage, fixed this weapon and it's now a fine weapon without the increased splash radius.
I just want to see how it acts if they remove the buff for a week or so and see how it behaves. If it's once again bad restore the buff, otherwise keep it.
This isn't just a request from me, I see a lot of people claiming this too in different threads, I say, put the theory to the test. all explosives should have huge blast radius's......thay are explosives after all Oh so you're ok with the flaylock right? Using real life as an example doesn't prove any point, other than understanding of real life >_> Unless it's ARMA, in which case that's fine. The flaylock isn't the problem, it's flaylock spam and its accessibility through low fitting costs. Damage/splash should stay the same, just need to stop every suit from being able to fit it so easily and reduce the DPS indirectly through nerfing the RoF or reload speed. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2964
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Posted - 2013.07.22 13:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:You know that won't fix that right? People will gladly give up their main weapon because this weapon is amazing, and unless it shoots once every 2.5 seconds a ROF change won't do squat. It actually would if you sit and think about it. I've been using all the flaylock variants on a 9,000,000 SP Minmatar assault Alt of mine. Here's some ideas I came up with. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2965
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Posted - 2013.07.22 14:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:Cat Merc wrote:You know that won't fix that right? People will gladly give up their main weapon because this weapon is amazing, and unless it shoots once every 2.5 seconds a ROF change won't do squat. It actually would if you sit and think about it. I've been using all the flaylock variants on a 9,000,000 SP Minmatar assault Alt of mine. Here's some ideas I came up with. lol "Slow moving projectile" do you have any clue how fast it is? I would say it's triple than MD grenade speed and has next to no drop off. Look, this weapon needs to have one shot and reload, or half the splash damage. Compare it to other side arms all you want, they require you to aim directly at the target, the flaylock allows you to aim in the general direction. Slow moving as in slower moving than a point-and-shoot weapon. There is quit a bit of round travel time. Try using the flaylock, it's not that easy to get kills. Also, by using it, I mean the STD, ADV, Prototype and all the variants to get a good idea of how to balance it while making it still viable as a sidearm you can main. Other sidearms are good enough to use as a main weapon, but people still haven't caught on. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2967
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Posted - 2013.07.22 14:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:Cat Merc wrote:You know that won't fix that right? People will gladly give up their main weapon because this weapon is amazing, and unless it shoots once every 2.5 seconds a ROF change won't do squat. It actually would if you sit and think about it. I've been using all the flaylock variants on a 9,000,000 SP Minmatar assault Alt of mine. Here's some ideas I came up with. lol "Slow moving projectile" do you have any clue how fast it is? I would say it's triple than MD grenade speed and has next to no drop off. Look, this weapon needs to have one shot and reload, or half the splash damage. Compare it to other side arms all you want, they require you to aim directly at the target, the flaylock allows you to aim in the general direction. Slow moving as in slower moving than a point-and-shoot weapon. There is quit a bit of round travel time. Try using the flaylock, it's not that easy to get kills. Also, by using it, I mean the STD, ADV, Prototype and all the variants to get a good idea of how to balance it while making it still viable as a sidearm you can main. Other sidearms are good enough to use as a main weapon, but people still haven't caught on. You're a noob. I meant if you take your time to line up shots. I know you have a vendetta against the flaylock as an armor tanker, but let's not turn it into another Uprising 1.0 laser please. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2967
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 14:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:All radius weapons need to have their range increase I think, but make it so at max radius you take 1 damage, you know?
See I've noticed if I'm on the edge I take either a bit of damage or none at all, but nothing in between, the larger radius should give such a small amount of damage, like you do when firing an AR at a great range, you know? I could actually live with that change, it would make the assault MD a bit more viable than a simple kill assist farmer while limiting the forge gun's anti-infantry capabilities at the same time. |
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Cosgar
ParagonX
2970
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Posted - 2013.07.22 14:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:pdiddy anfama wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Before you hiss at me, hear me out on this. I have a feeling that the fix to splash radius, where before even if you were right over the explosive it won't do damage, fixed this weapon and it's now a fine weapon without the increased splash radius.
I just want to see how it acts if they remove the buff for a week or so and see how it behaves. If it's once again bad restore the buff, otherwise keep it.
This isn't just a request from me, I see a lot of people claiming this too in different threads, I say, put the theory to the test. NO. MASS DRIVER IS FINE. IT TAKES ALL 2-3 ROUNDS OF A PROTO MD TO COME EVEN CLOSE TO KILLING THE TRYHARDS ONCE I KNOCK OFF THEIR SHIELDS. MD IS FINE AND BALANCED. BALANCE THE FREAKING GAYLOCK. PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT MD ARE UPSET BECAUSE THEY LOST THEIR PRETTY PROTO TO ONE. Area denial weapon, rings any bells? With 4.4m of splah radius, it takes skill to miss >_> Try using the MD. It's very awkward to aim with. I'm not going to say it takes more skill than any other weapon, but it sure as hell isn't easy mode. It's like a kill assist farmer that occasionally gets kills. My best game was 22-3, but that was because people were dumb enough to keep rushing the point I was defending. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2971
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 14:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I did, it was easy hitting people. How many 1 v 1 engagements did you win against an AR? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2971
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 14:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I did, it was easy hitting people. How many 1 v 1 engagements did you win against an AR? None, because that's not it's job. Well, more accuratly, I never went into 1v1 because I knew this puts the weapon outside of it's intended use. You just proved my point. Stop complaining about a situational weapon being useful in its intended situation. That's like saying a you should be able to go toe-to-toe with a HMG in close range and win. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2974
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 15:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Well, I took the MD to battle right now. All standard gear, one enhanced light damage mod. Zero skills into it, using the Aurum version. Status? Success, went 11/1, that 1 was from a LAV. And I got in 5 minutes before the end of the match (Ambush), if it was from the start I would probably be higher than that. Kills were extremely easy, I can only imagine what happens if I bring a flux and high end gear and MD.
Area denial my ass. 1v1? Piece of cake. Depends on how many people are smart enough to run the hell away. Most of my kills come from lobbing rounds at someone not even paying attention. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2976
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 15:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:i think I might rather see a smaller amount of damage over larger radius rather than a reduced radius.
let it be area denial:
50 dmg over 7 meters Here's the issue- the MD has to dish out enough damage to make someone go "Oh ****!" and retreat. Anyone that want's to stand there and shoot back and die should be a free kill. The assault MD already deals diminished damage over a wide area and is a true support weapon. The standard variant is balanced for general purpose with a smaller radius and almost even damage across the board. Hell, I've even had some fun with a speedy logi fitting and using the MD like an explosive shotgun in CQC. Seriously, how many other weapons have variants that are all useful in given situations without being completely OP? CCP already nerfed the damage and splash enough, just let the MD be already. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2976
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 15:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Well, I took the MD to battle right now. All standard gear, one enhanced light damage mod. Zero skills into it, using the Aurum version. Status? Success, went 11/1, that 1 was from a LAV. And I got in 5 minutes before the end of the match (Ambush), if it was from the start I would probably be higher than that. Kills were extremely easy, I can only imagine what happens if I bring a flux and high end gear and MD.
Area denial my ass. 1v1? Piece of cake. I took an HMG heavy into an ambush and went 20-2 easy. Next game I got stomped. Please don't use a single game as a reference for balancing a weapon. Not to mention a pub match. Everything is OP in a pub match... even the laser. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2979
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Posted - 2013.07.22 15:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Cosgar wrote:First Prophet wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Well, I took the MD to battle right now. All standard gear, one enhanced light damage mod. Zero skills into it, using the Aurum version. Status? Success, went 11/1, that 1 was from a LAV. And I got in 5 minutes before the end of the match (Ambush), if it was from the start I would probably be higher than that. Kills were extremely easy, I can only imagine what happens if I bring a flux and high end gear and MD.
Area denial my ass. 1v1? Piece of cake. I took an HMG heavy into an ambush and went 20-2 easy. Next game I got stomped. Please don't use a single game as a reference for balancing a weapon. Not to mention a pub match. Everything is OP in a pub match... even the laser. Might as well test the weapon in an office LAN party. I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that. If we ever get an officer MD, I propose that we should call it Fren's Remnant to commemorate that ordeal. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2988
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Posted - 2013.07.22 15:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:First Prophet wrote:Cat Merc wrote:First Prophet wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Well, I took the MD to battle right now. All standard gear, one enhanced light damage mod. Zero skills into it, using the Aurum version. Status? Success, went 11/1, that 1 was from a LAV. And I got in 5 minutes before the end of the match (Ambush), if it was from the start I would probably be higher than that. Kills were extremely easy, I can only imagine what happens if I bring a flux and high end gear and MD.
Area denial my ass. 1v1? Piece of cake. I took an HMG heavy into an ambush and went 20-2 easy. Next game I got stomped. Please don't use a single game as a reference for balancing a weapon. Well, I took it to three more matches. All of them had similar results. Give it a week you silly troll. :P The MD is in a good place compared to other weapons. I know the splash radius makes it seem cheap but it's really the only thing it has going for it. The only balancing it really needs is an aiming fix. It's only being used right now because AR aim is bad. Once that gets fixed, more players will flock back to the AR when they realize it's the better killer weapon since it has better DPS/versatility. I would say either change the bonus so the splash radius doesn't grow further from what I used, or remove 25% from the splash radius so once you get the bonus it's like what you have now without it. I say the former, as I would hate to see this weapon be completely useless until you skill heavily into it. With proficiency 5, and an EXO-5, I'm pretty gimped in CBs. I'd use a freedom, but the fitting costs are already so high on the MD, that I would have to give up some tank on an already squishy suit, or some equipment. Keep in mind that I'm an OP Minmatar logi. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2990
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 15:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:With proficiency 5, and an EXO-5, I'm pretty gimped in CBs. I'd use a freedom, but the fitting costs are already so high on the MD, that I would have to give up some tank on an already squishy suit, or some equipment. Keep in mind that I'm an OP Minmatar logi. You're not gimped if you use it how it's supposed to be used, I.E denying the an area and killing those who are brave enough to step in? A lot of times in CB's I've been in a single MD user is holding us off from getting the objective, we have to wait until he reloads and pray he doesn't reload before we pass through. When everyone is running full proto, you can be pretty gimped. I had the same problem in Chrome. Also, earlier, I meant PC. -derp- |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2990
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Cosgar wrote:With proficiency 5, and an EXO-5, I'm pretty gimped in CBs. I'd use a freedom, but the fitting costs are already so high on the MD, that I would have to give up some tank on an already squishy suit, or some equipment. Keep in mind that I'm an OP Minmatar logi. You're not gimped if you use it how it's supposed to be used, I.E denying the an area and killing those who are brave enough to step in? A lot of times in CB's I've been in a single MD user is holding us off from getting the objective, we have to wait until he reloads and pray he doesn't reload before we pass through. When everyone is running full proto, you can be pretty gimped. I had the same problem in Chrome. Also, earlier, I meant PC. -derp- You should probably know that being hit by a MD does a "slap" effect that throws off your aim. Let your buddies fight while you shoot at the enemy with the MD, watch as the enemy can't aim for ****, and is confused from all the smoke and damage coming from eveywhere. I say have make the MD give the same amount as WP with an assist as it does with any other kill. As in, you got an assist using the MD? Here, have 50WP! Throwing off people's aim has long since been gone. (closed beta?) Even I thought that was OP. Damage/splash are fine right now. Even when gimped in the "serious" fights, it does just enough damage with enough radius to hold people at bay. We also need to stop trying to balance things off of pub matches. It didn't work in beta and it shouldn't work now. |
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Cosgar
ParagonX
2991
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Posted - 2013.07.22 16:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
If the MD still throws off aim, it needs to stop. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2996
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Posted - 2013.07.22 16:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
da GAND wrote:Someone with a MD shouldn't be able to shoot me in the face and kill me but not take any damage themselves Ummm, I kill myself all the time with the splash radius. Especially when someone jumps in front of me while firing. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3016
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 19:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ruthless Lee wrote:Cosgar wrote: Here's the issue- the MD has to dish out enough damage to make someone go "Oh ****!" and retreat. Anyone that want's to stand there and shoot back and die should be a free kill. The assault MD already deals diminished damage over a wide area and is a true support weapon. The standard variant is balanced for general purpose with a smaller radius and almost even damage across the board. Hell, I've even had some fun with a speedy logi fitting and using the MD like an explosive shotgun in CQC. Seriously, how many other weapons have variants that are all useful in given situations without being completely OP? CCP already nerfed the damage and splash enough, just let the MD be already.
Remember a few days ago, when I said this was coming? Quite a few people said no, the MD is fine ... and I agreed. It IS fine, and working as it should. But it didn't change the fact this was coming. Welcome to New Eden. God forbid a niche weapon to be good in its ideal situation...
Seriously, can everyone go back to crying about the Core Flaylock. Hell, cry about logis again FFS... |
Cosgar
ParagonX
3018
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 19:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ruthless Lee wrote:Cosgar wrote:Ruthless Lee wrote:Cosgar wrote: Here's the issue- the MD has to dish out enough damage to make someone go "Oh ****!" and retreat. Anyone that want's to stand there and shoot back and die should be a free kill. The assault MD already deals diminished damage over a wide area and is a true support weapon. The standard variant is balanced for general purpose with a smaller radius and almost even damage across the board. Hell, I've even had some fun with a speedy logi fitting and using the MD like an explosive shotgun in CQC. Seriously, how many other weapons have variants that are all useful in given situations without being completely OP? CCP already nerfed the damage and splash enough, just let the MD be already.
Remember a few days ago, when I said this was coming? Quite a few people said no, the MD is fine ... and I agreed. It IS fine, and working as it should. But it didn't change the fact this was coming. Welcome to New Eden. God forbid a niche weapon to be good in its ideal situation... Seriously, can everyone go back to crying about the Core Flaylock. Hell, cry about logis again FFS... Yeah, I think I need to stay away from the boards for awhile. It's just ... depressing. Crybaby spam. Same here. It's depressing enough to make Paris Jackson finish herself off... |
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