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Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
153
   |
Posted - 2013.07.20 10:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
the vocal minority of weak tankers try to represent us as a whole.
They blame their failure's on HUGE design flaws in the game (there are some technical issues) and cry foul when they are outwitted by a clever AV or fellow tanker.
Take TakeCoverorDie for example.
Our team were fielding 3 rail tanks. It was an attrition PC battle and we were not playing so much to win as to deal as much monetary damage as possible. The numbers were against us in this match. We were known to be on the field and already destroyed a couple of tanks earlier.
Guess what this fool does?
He CONGA LINES with a second tank directly behind him (a red flag there. Conga Lines are horrible for tanks) with a BLASTER turret upon his tank. He gets hit a few times (an example of a sturdy build in the hands of an idiot), gets stuck due to a mix of user error, bad positioning, and general lack of situational awareness and gets blown up by the AV we were positioning near him.
Is this a CCP error that needs direct fixing, or is this an example of his own failings in the role?
HERE IS WHAT I THINK IS LEGITIMATE in regards to caldari tanks,
Increase PG/CPU a bit so they can fit more of their essential modules. Balance it carefully so we don't have a god-mode here.
Increase range/damage of their missile turrets. Even though I do stress HEAVILY on the importance of situational awareness, their bread and butter anti armor weapon needs a bit of a buff to be a bit more threatening.
Increase base move speed.
I DO NOT SUPPORT
-Any change that allows them to be superior vs. Infantry AND tanks.
-Any change that GREATLY increases PG/CPU for either Caldari or Gallente models.
Often times people think they are entitled to a win just because their vehicle is pricey. I am not one of those.
Cleverness, skill, teamwork should win the day, no matter how 'godly' the vehicle.
Here is my problem with the whole proto tank idea -
I have fits that can resist well against the normal (and damage modded) Proto level weaponry easily 1v1 or 1v2...
I am imagining that with the current level of Proto AV as it is, with a similar build and the ability to fit larger plates
even proto AV wouldn't be strong enough and if you weren't bringing full Proto, it would be an "I-Win" button for me, with the only counter being another tank or the entire other team fielding various AV. I don't like this.
Why?
Because it doesn't support squad-based combat.
The current situation between AV and Vehicles DEMANDS strong teamwork between squadmates.
Clear Communication
Intel being regularly reported
Flexibility of multiple roles within the squad able to kill or suppress enemy AV
and more.
These things can greatly increase your life expectancy.
|
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
153
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 11:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
So many things would be fixed if people were flexible... |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
154
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 11:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:the vocal minority of weak tankers try to represent us as a whole.
They blame their failure's on HUGE design flaws in the game (there are some technical issues) and cry foul when they are outwitted by a clever AV or fellow tanker.
Take TakeCoverorDie for example.
Our team were fielding 3 rail tanks. It was an attrition PC battle and we were not playing so much to win as to deal as much monetary damage as possible. The numbers were against us in this match. We were known to be on the field and already destroyed a couple of tanks earlier.
Guess what this fool does?
He CONGA LINES with a second tank directly behind him (a red flag there. Conga Lines are horrible for tanks) with a BLASTER turret upon his tank. He gets hit a few times (an example of a sturdy build in the hands of an idiot), gets stuck due to a mix of user error, bad positioning, and general lack of situational awareness and gets blown up by the AV we were positioning near him.
Is this a CCP error that needs direct fixing, or is this an example of his own failings in the role?
HERE IS WHAT I THINK IS LEGITIMATE in regards to caldari tanks,
Increase PG/CPU a bit so they can fit more of their essential modules. Balance it carefully so we don't have a god-mode here.
Increase range/damage of their missile turrets. Even though I do stress HEAVILY on the importance of situational awareness, their bread and butter anti armor weapon needs a bit of a buff to be a bit more threatening.
Increase base move speed.
I DO NOT SUPPORT
-Any change that allows them to be superior vs. Infantry AND tanks.
-Any change that GREATLY increases PG/CPU for either Caldari or Gallente models.
Often times people think they are entitled to a win just because their vehicle is pricey. I am not one of those.
Cleverness, skill, teamwork should win the day, no matter how 'godly' the vehicle.
Here is my problem with the whole proto tank idea -
I have fits that can resist well against the normal (and damage modded) Proto level weaponry easily 1v1 or 1v2...
I am imagining that with the current level of Proto AV as it is, with a similar build and the ability to fit larger plates
even proto AV wouldn't be strong enough and if you weren't bringing full Proto, it would be an "I-Win" button for me, with the only counter being another tank or the entire other team fielding various AV. I don't like this.
Why?
Because it doesn't support squad-based combat.
The current situation between AV and Vehicles DEMANDS strong teamwork between squadmates.
Clear Communication
Intel being regularly reported
Flexibility of multiple roles within the squad able to kill or suppress enemy AV
and more.
These things can greatly increase your life expectancy.
I can kill any tank you can field, using nothing but two people with AV genades and a militia LAV. I have done it literaly hundreds of times with a corp mate that I play with regularly, some of you tankers may know him; his name is ratamaq doc, he hates tank (I think he was molested by a tank when he was younger). He and I have roughly a 90% kill rate. The only type of AV grnades I ever carry are std AVs, and I think doc usually uses adv. Doc and I regularly even solo a lot of tanks when we are separated in matches. Now, are you still going to try to run that same line of BS about not needing adv and proto tanks?  because it isn't selling. And I am a full proto tank pilot by the way.
Congratulations! You can defeat the braindead 90% of tankers who don't know how to build their tanks!
But lets get serious.
How would you react if even with a full squad's worth of proto AV you couldn't ding me because with my knowledge of builds, I just transfer it to an even stronger chassis? It wouldn't be fun.
I've run across you before.
You've never claimed one of my tanks.
Good luck in the future! |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
154
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 11:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Silly AV nader, you'd be spotted and killed by squadmates, -OR- I'd pick you up on scanner and kill you myself, -0R- your LaiDais would do hardly anything as I egress and repair...
So many options, more than yours, thats for sure. |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
154
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 11:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Karazantor wrote:THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:I pumped 10 straight ishukone assault FG shots with damage mods into blammos maddy to take him down...conescutive shots, like all in a row in the shortest time possible... it takes 9 shots for me to down a suppl depot.
This makes me think that tanks are fine and tankers are bad, but i think the shield reppers should be buffed to be as effective as armor reppers, make the shield tanks a bit more viable since they already deal with FG and railgun weaknesses.
Also think marauders should be brought back as they were, ran a sagaris last build, thought it was well balanced other than being too expensive and missles being useless against infantry & railgun snipers. I still remember in Beta when MBT's and Dropships were stupidly overpowered. I hope CCP remembers this too, and is extremely careful with how they handle the issue of Tanks/Dropships. They were not fun days. Arguably the overpowered dropships were worse than the tanks as there was literally no escape, but it was all relative.
This!
I am a vehicle operator, but I do NOT want my vehicle to be god-mode easily. It would remove the challenge and make it MISERABLE to be infantry.
|
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 12:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Silly AV nader, you'd be spotted and killed by squadmates, -OR- I'd pick you up on scanner and kill you myself, -0R- your LaiDais would do hardly anything as I egress and repair...
So many options, more than yours, thats for sure. Yup. And they still wouldn't be enough to protect you.
The best I could say to you is -Good Luck!-
I've killed my share of AV naders, Swarmers, and Forge Gunners. It comes down to how well your squad can try to outmaneuver mine. :) |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 12:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:the vocal minority of weak tankers try to represent us as a whole.
They blame their failure's on HUGE design flaws in the game (there are some technical issues) and cry foul when they are outwitted by a clever AV or fellow tanker.
Take TakeCoverorDie for example.
Our team were fielding 3 rail tanks. It was an attrition PC battle and we were not playing so much to win as to deal as much monetary damage as possible. The numbers were against us in this match. We were known to be on the field and already destroyed a couple of tanks earlier.
Guess what this fool does?
He CONGA LINES with a second tank directly behind him (a red flag there. Conga Lines are horrible for tanks) with a BLASTER turret upon his tank. He gets hit a few times (an example of a sturdy build in the hands of an idiot), gets stuck due to a mix of user error, bad positioning, and general lack of situational awareness and gets blown up by the AV we were positioning near him.
Is this a CCP error that needs direct fixing, or is this an example of his own failings in the role?
HERE IS WHAT I THINK IS LEGITIMATE in regards to caldari tanks,
Increase PG/CPU a bit so they can fit more of their essential modules. Balance it carefully so we don't have a god-mode here.
Increase range/damage of their missile turrets. Even though I do stress HEAVILY on the importance of situational awareness, their bread and butter anti armor weapon needs a bit of a buff to be a bit more threatening.
Increase base move speed.
I DO NOT SUPPORT
-Any change that allows them to be superior vs. Infantry AND tanks.
-Any change that GREATLY increases PG/CPU for either Caldari or Gallente models.
Often times people think they are entitled to a win just because their vehicle is pricey. I am not one of those.
Cleverness, skill, teamwork should win the day, no matter how 'godly' the vehicle.
Here is my problem with the whole proto tank idea -
I have fits that can resist well against the normal (and damage modded) Proto level weaponry easily 1v1 or 1v2...
I am imagining that with the current level of Proto AV as it is, with a similar build and the ability to fit larger plates
even proto AV wouldn't be strong enough and if you weren't bringing full Proto, it would be an "I-Win" button for me, with the only counter being another tank or the entire other team fielding various AV. I don't like this.
Why?
Because it doesn't support squad-based combat.
The current situation between AV and Vehicles DEMANDS strong teamwork between squadmates.
Clear Communication
Intel being regularly reported
Flexibility of multiple roles within the squad able to kill or suppress enemy AV
and more.
These things can greatly increase your life expectancy.
I can kill any tank you can field, using nothing but two people with AV genades and a militia LAV. I have done it literaly hundreds of times with a corp mate that I play with regularly, some of you tankers may know him; his name is ratamaq doc, he hates tank (I think he was molested by a tank when he was younger). He and I have roughly a 90% kill rate. The only type of AV grnades I ever carry are std AVs, and I think doc usually uses adv. Doc and I regularly even solo a lot of tanks when we are separated in matches. Now, are you still going to try to run that same line of BS about not needing adv and proto tanks? because it isn't selling. And I am a full proto tank pilot by the way. Congratulations! You can defeat the braindead 90% of tankers who don't know how to build their tanks! But lets get serious. How would you react if even with a full squad's worth of proto AV you couldn't ding me because with my knowledge of builds, I just transfer it to an even stronger chassis? It wouldn't be fun. I've run across you before. You've never claimed one of my tanks. Good luck in the future! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!! Is that what you tell yourself at night to help you sleep. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.
HAV-life is a hard one, but ultimately rewarding once you figure out how to build your tanks and outwit your opponents. Sometimes swallowing pride and recalling when an entire squad sports rage hardons for your tank. |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 12:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jason Pearson wrote:Mary, I'm going to explain the concept of Prototype tanks to you, again.
First, you must remove any thoughts about the current balance. Yes, if we add amazing prototype tanks right now they would be far too unbalanced and unfair, but nobody has said that is the idea. The idea instead is to create a reason to proceed deeper into Vehicles, I've noticed quite a few players are just specin' into the base skills of Vehicles and then dominating on the field, which annoy me, as I have 90% of my SP in Vehicles.
First, we'd need new hulls and we'd need to look at the overall type of HAVs, you have the following:
Normal (Current Standard ones) - A basic hull
Enforcer - A hull with reduced endurance and speed, but gives increased damage output
Marauder - A hull with more endurance but (what was the downside to a Marauder? xD )
Black Ops - A hull specialized in E-War capabilities (I think that was it.)
So we have all the tanks, but we also need additional AV types, all types of damage must be available when doing such an overhaul. Once we have these (So AV can handle both Armor and Shield, because neither type of tank should overpower the other.) we can properly balance them, with Standard AV capable of taking on Standard Vehicles, not doing so well against Advanced and properly struggling against Prototype.
Standard Tank > Fair < Standard AV
Prototype Tank > Very Hard > Standard AV
Standard Tank < Very Hard < Prototype AV
Prototype Tank > Fair < Prototype AV
(Arrows mean which side is far likely to be successful.)
Adding this means we do have a reason to go past level 1 of Gallente/Caldari HAVs, because unless you want the Enforcer (lol.) there is no reason.
I remember our conversation; I meant to put something about CURRENT AV balance, but must have missed. I agree with your points. |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 12:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:I pumped 10 straight ishukone assault FG shots with damage mods into blammos maddy to take him down...conescutive shots, like all in a row in the shortest time possible... it takes 9 shots for me to down a suppl depot.
This makes me think that tanks are fine and tankers are bad, but i think the shield reppers should be buffed to be as effective as armor reppers, make the shield tanks a bit more viable since they already deal with FG and railgun weaknesses.
Also think marauders should be brought back as they were, ran a sagaris last build, thought it was well balanced other than being too expensive and missles being useless against infantry & railgun snipers. Bad hit detection is not a direct problem with tanks. I have used the forge a bit (no expert) and even I notice that sometimes it hits squarely but registers no damage. Same thing happens to the railgun too. Nah all the shots did damage, i was literally counting shots and watching his health bar, cus i do that alot, he simply activated his hardener & repper after the first shot and was repping his damage resisted health fast enough to take my constant barrage, it was after his modules were cooling down oh the 7th or so shot i was finally able to take him down. Hes just got a legitimately beast tank, still havent seen ones as strong as his yet. And i've killed alotta tanks xD
My tank eats FG shots much like that one. |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 12:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
oso tiburon wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:Silly AV nader, you'd be spotted and killed by squadmates, -OR- I'd pick you up on scanner and kill you myself, -0R- your LaiDais would do hardly anything as I egress and repair...
So many options, more than yours, thats for sure. i hear someone whos gotten lucky a few times dosent want to spend sp into takns anymore is happy running around in pubs with a tank and umm yea ....
What's your point and who are you speaking about? |
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Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 12:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
I don't like this whole tank crew needed to operate it. It is fine as it is with them operating small turrets... |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 13:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Son-Of A-Gun wrote:Thumb Green wrote:ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote:[
I believe a full squad of proto AV should be required to KILL a tank.
I believe a full tank CREW should be required to OPERATE a tank. instead of needing to harden the **** up, the tankers whining on this forum about how UP their tanks are just need to smarten the **** up. A properly fit non-militia tank with a crew that knows what they're doing are hard to take down and impossible to solo. *double buzzer sound* wrong! So you want your cake and you want to eat it too, huh? It's wrong for one person to solo a tank but it's okay for one person to solo an entire team? **** that noise.
Whoa whoa whoa.
I don't solo teams. I always come in with a squad at my back to maximize my efficiency. And any squad worth their weight has at least one quality AV guy, and most infantry has a fit with AV nades. There ARE answers to tanks, and NO, I am not asking to godmode. It would just be a pain in the ass having a tank require a three man crew. Totally not fun and not needed. |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 13:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:I'm not and haven't been talking to you Mary; but you bring up a very good point. Mary Sedillo wrote:It would just be a pain in the ass having a tank require a three man crew. Totally not fun and not needed. I agree it's totally not fun and in regards to Son-Of A-Gun's earlier comment; requiring a six man proto squad to take out a tank would be a pain in the ass and is totally not fun. And I'd love to provide video proof of it Son-Of A-Gun but not everybody has access to equipment to record with. All I can provide is anecdotal evidence but so far that's all tankers that whine about UP tanks have provided as well. So I say to you; footage or it didn't happen. What I expect is to see is a non-militia tank properly fitted with a driver that knows what they're doing and it being solo'd.
It's not easy to solo a tanker, but I don't think it should be impossible if you are Proto level, imo. |
Mary Sedillo
BetaMax.
CRONOS.
155
|
Posted - 2013.07.20 14:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dale Templar wrote:ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote:Mary Sedillo wrote:The current situation between AV and Vehicles DEMANDS strong teamwork between squadmates. You would not BELIEVE the teamwork required to fit AV grenades and a nanohive on my dropsuit. Difficult, but when it all comes together I can either take out that tank or drive it away crying. Feels good. I believe a full squad of proto AV should be required to KILL a tank. About 3 to drive it away and be a credible threat. If things are right, they'll get the kill too. Anything less than that and they should be little more than annoyances. I can one man a tank without team work using Packed AV's, Hives and Flaylock Pistols, do you want a biscuit?
A POORLY fit, perhaps. An INEXPERIENCED one perhaps. You might even get the mop up kill, but I can straight up tell you that won't kill mine easily. |
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