DUST Search - Skill tree modifications and default policies.

KalOfTheRathi wrote:

I hesitate to point out the post on the Feedback/Request forums as I originated it.

So let me restate the essence of it to share with all of you.

When the Skill Tree is modified those effected should, by default, get their ISK and SP refunded to spend again as they now choose.

The 1.3 Caldari Logitics/Assault Suit attribute change is the cause for this, even though it does not effect me personally. I believe this would reduce much of the anger and dissatisfaction with CCP/Shanghai as they strive to balance the game. Nobody, myself included, expects the Skill Tree to be frozen. Indeed one of the initial promises of DUST was the ability to add new functions and to constantly expand the Skill Tree.

Some claim that this should only be triggered when the Skills are Removed. However, having done the basic math on getting a Proto level Logistics Fit it is very expensive*. More so than the assault suit. And if a player was queried on whether they felt slighted or mistreated I suspect the results would show a negative reaction to CCP/Shanghai.

My request is whenever CCP/Shanghai makes this drastic a change to the Skill Tree it is no different than an actual removal. Also, for CCP/Shanghai to put in the place the procedures necessary to restore ISK and SP to those effected whenever a removal or drastic functionality change occurs. If the players still want to be a Caldari Logistic Proto then it is a matter of minutes to respec. If they would rather do something else then let them. To do less is to ferment displeasure and dissent.

Thanks for your time, KR

* the expense is unjustified but that is a different post. :-)

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KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Covert Intervention 547	Posted - 2013.07.20 00:05:00 - [1] - Quote I hesitate to point out the post on the Feedback/Request forums as I originated it. So let me restate the essence of it to share with all of you. When the Skill Tree is modified those effected should, by default, get their ISK and SP refunded to spend again as they now choose. The 1.3 Caldari Logitics/Assault Suit attribute change is the cause for this, even though it does not effect me personally. I believe this would reduce much of the anger and dissatisfaction with CCP/Shanghai as they strive to balance the game. Nobody, myself included, expects the Skill Tree to be frozen. Indeed one of the initial promises of DUST was the ability to add new functions and to constantly expand the Skill Tree. Some claim that this should only be triggered when the Skills are Removed. However, having done the basic math on getting a Proto level Logistics Fit it is very expensive. More so than the assault suit. And if a player was queried on whether they felt slighted or mistreated I suspect the results would show a negative reaction to CCP/Shanghai. My request is whenever CCP/Shanghai makes this drastic a change to the Skill Tree it is no different than an actual removal. Also, for CCP/Shanghai to put in the place the procedures necessary to restore ISK and SP to those effected whenever a removal or drastic functionality change occurs. If the players still want to be a Caldari Logistic Proto then it is a matter of minutes to respec. If they would rather do something else then let them. To do less is to ferment displeasure and dissent. Thanks for your time, KR the expense is unjustified but that is a different post. :-)
Ghost Kaisar Intrepidus XI EoN. 166	Posted - 2013.07.20 04:34:00 - [2] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: I hesitate to point out the post on the Feedback/Request forums as I originated it. So let me restate the essence of it to share with all of you. When the Skill Tree is modified those effected should, by default, get their ISK and SP refunded to spend again as they now choose. The 1.3 Caldari Logitics/Assault Suit attribute change is the cause for this, even though it does not effect me personally. I believe this would reduce much of the anger and dissatisfaction with CCP/Shanghai as they strive to balance the game. Nobody, myself included, expects the Skill Tree to be frozen. Indeed one of the initial promises of DUST was the ability to add new functions and to constantly expand the Skill Tree. Some claim that this should only be triggered when the Skills are Removed. However, having done the basic math on getting a Proto level Logistics Fit it is very expensive. More so than the assault suit. And if a player was queried on whether they felt slighted or mistreated I suspect the results would show a negative reaction to CCP/Shanghai. My request is whenever CCP/Shanghai makes this drastic a change to the Skill Tree it is no different than an actual removal. Also, for CCP/Shanghai to put in the place the procedures necessary to restore ISK and SP to those effected whenever a removal or drastic functionality change occurs. If the players still want to be a Caldari Logistic Proto then it is a matter of minutes to respec. If they would rather do something else then let them. To do less is to ferment displeasure and dissent. Thanks for your time, KR the expense is unjustified but that is a different post. :-) This is on shaky ground, but I know what you mean. For example. I am a scout. I had only two variants to choose from, and I chose the minmatar, as it suited the role I wanted it to as best as I could. I know that I will want a respec when the other variants come out, especially if there is one more suited for my role. I don't think there should be a total respec, but you should refund the affected skills, and allow them to change them if they want, or to stick with them. TL;DR Don't punish people for choosing the best option at the time, especially since the game isn't even finished yet. The only safe bet at this moment is to just not skill into anything. And that isn't fun
Django Quik R.I.f.t 1007	Posted - 2013.07.20 16:55:00 - [3] - Quote @Kaisar - what you are talking about is not what the OP is suggesting; he's saying that if the skills themselves are changed, they should be refunded, not if new skills are added. @Kal - I don't disagree with refunds when there are drastic changes to skills (and only for the changed skill) but what has just happened to the calogi suit is not a drastic change and certainly doesn't constitute any need for a SP refund. Now if a change happened such as gallente logis losing their equipment fitting bonus and getting an armor tanking bonus, that would be a drastic change that would completely alter the way the suit is used.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1175	Posted - 2013.07.20 18:07:00 - [4] - Quote I only agree if the changes /significantly/ disrupt the core of what something is. In the case of what's coming in 1.3, I'm not convinced a respec is necessary. It's a pretty bad habit to get into to cater to premature and unncessessary community pressure. I'm not against respecs as a whole, but balance changes happen. Now that they're happning much more often, so will the demand for respecs as people try to bounce from FOTM thing to FOTM thing. Honestly, I'd rather see them not offer any more respecs until they get the full suit lineup out (and/or do one more final pass on the skill system to replace the bonuses that make no damn sense), because the people who are in the position of "I don't want to use smelly amarr stuff but that's all that's there for heavies" at least have a legitimate argument for wanting to change. It's not about punishing the players, but the game becomes very dull if every single patch people are taking a respec to get themselves into whatever is 'the best' at the time. I'll admit, this kind of balancing stuff should've been happening during the beta, and CCP completely squandered a year and a couple months they could've been using to make balance changes frequently in order to find a proper balance amongst the content. However, I do think that my fellow players need to wake up and smell the self-entitlement that is rife on the forums with requests like this. Especially in this case, people massively overreacting and claiming that their SP in Caldari logi is useless, is far,far,far from the truth. If CCP would listen to us on the CPM and actually tell you what they told us about logi suits in the future (HINT HINT, GAME DESIGN) You guy would mostly be as satisfied with the changes as I am.
KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Covert Intervention 553	Posted - 2013.07.22 01:36:00 - [5] - Quote @Nova Knife, not to beat a dead horse but caving to community pressure has been at the forefront of CCP/Shanghai and DUST since its inception. Starting with BETA WP removal for Logis up to but not limited to removing Free LAVs while leaving the worst Murder Taxis untouched, LLAVs. Of course, one could say even the Devs couldn't hurt the over powered LLAVs. :-P My reasoning for the proposed policy is to reduce turmoil and dissent. The problem lies in the way the current Skill Tree is laid out. Not that the layout should be changed, as I actually agree with it. But choosing a sub-tree is expensive and removing the reason someone chose it makes the player feel betrayed (Kittened-over but starting with an 'f' was the specific response I got from several). I don't care about the change nor the balance. I only believe that whenever the amount of SP required to change is more than 500K SP then it should either be refunded automatically or an in game option allowed its one time use. It is no secret that I believe the SP is hugely overpriced. It is currently a disincentive to play the game. I believe this is common courtesy and would actually promote good will for CCP/Shanghai. KR
KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Covert Intervention 553	Posted - 2013.07.22 01:46:00 - [6] - Quote Django Quik wrote: @Kal - I don't disagree with refunds when there are drastic changes to skills (and only for the changed skill) but what has just happened to the calogi suit is not a drastic change and certainly doesn't constitute any need for a SP refund. Now if a change happened such as gallente logis losing their equipment fitting bonus and getting an armor tanking bonus, that would be a drastic change that would completely alter the way the suit is used. I see your point Django. However, who has the SP to duplicate a sub-tree without a refund of the SP? If SP was cheaper, or speccing into a different sub-tree didn't cost another 3M than I would agree with you. However SP is very expensive and after having spent the 3M* to get to Logi Proto why would they trust CCP/Shanghai to skill into Assault? All while leaving 3M into Logi for no gain whatsoever. * I will check the values next time I log into DUST. But my Minmatar Logi needs 1.9M to go from lvl 3 to lvl 5.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 44	Posted - 2013.07.22 04:29:00 - [7] - Quote From nothing to Cal Logi 5 is about 2.75 million SP. Same for the other racial specialisations.
KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Covert Intervention 554	Posted - 2013.07.22 11:28:00 - [8] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: From nothing to Cal Logi 5 is about 2.75 million SP. Same for the other racial specialisations. Thanks, I appreciate the numbers.
Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2013.07.22 19:08:00 - [9] - Quote When we could opt-in for a respec after may 6th, I immediately did it. Because they changed the pre-reqs on the skills for Dropsuit Command and were reducing the SP cost for it. I took that refunded SP and put it in the exact same place, except I only took my basic frame to lvl 3. I Would have gotten back 1 million SP from the change, but instead because the way I did it I got 1.5 million SP back. IF the other 3 racial variants come out for heavy frames, Sentinels and Commandos, or the other 2 racial variants of the light frame and Scout come out, THEN I want My SP refunded in those specific skills. But just because I was exploiting the system and skilled into the overpowered Logistics Suits and Flaylock Pistols and they are being balanced, then I should not receive a refund from that. Besides, if you're just upset your logi isn't going to be the Slayer it was, just save up. In Passive SP alone you'll have enough SP to get that proto Assault suit before the changes come if you have a booster.
KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Covert Intervention 556	Posted - 2013.07.23 01:41:00 - [10] - Quote Cass Caul wrote: When we could opt-in for a respec after may 6th, I immediately did it. Because they changed the pre-reqs on the skills for Dropsuit Command and were reducing the SP cost for it. I took that refunded SP and put it in the exact same place, except I only took my basic frame to lvl 3. I Would have gotten back 1 million SP from the change, but instead because the way I did it I got 1.5 million SP back. IF the other 3 racial variants come out for heavy frames, Sentinels and Commandos, or the other 2 racial variants of the light frame and Scout come out, THEN I want My SP refunded in those specific skills. But just because I was exploiting the system and skilled into the overpowered Logistics Suits and Flaylock Pistols and they are being balanced, then I should not receive a refund from that. Besides, if you're just upset your logi isn't going to be the Slayer it was, just save up. In Passive SP alone you'll have enough SP to get that proto Assault suit before the changes come if you have a booster. Good points even though you missed a few important issues. And your are mostly wrong overall. I do not run a Caldari Logi. Mine is Minmatar. This slightly effects my alt but as he is skilled in both Caldari Assault and Logi to lvl 1 there will be no effective change for him either. Also under the current policy there is no way your Heavy respec would be allowed either when the other racial heavies are finally released. Tough, earn more SP. Feel the pain now? My point is simply a request to CCP/Shanghai to establish a default policy to refund affected by skill tree changes. Even if they are not Utterly and Absolutely Dramatic changes. Doing so would reduce much of the turmoil and dissent for the average player. Why? Because the game design is not stable, specifically the Skill Tree. The policy would give them the required freedom to tweak without having to fight each issue separately. The players would not feel like they are getting jerked around and their very expensive SP, which is earned by spending days down in the DUST, is respected. Which might be the real attitude from CCP/Shanghai, no respect of the players efforts as only AUR matters. But that is just a guess. No boosters for me anymore. I paid to support CCP/Shanghai for the game up until Chromosome. After Uprising I am not spending more. Maybe one day, time will tell.

RedRebelCork Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 182	Posted - 2013.07.23 10:51:00 - [11] - Quote When it takes months to rebalance "game-breaking" issues like the CalLogi or Core Flaylock people have to adapt or die. In most cases they adapt by skilling into the same gear that everyone else is killing them with, it's a vicious cycle.


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