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Ghost Kaisar
Intrepidus XI
EoN.
158
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Posted - 2013.07.19 14:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
IMO, a Class Balance gives all of the Classes a role. It gives them strengths and weaknesses and rewards them for doing their job. Right now, it seems like Logi's and Assaults are the only ones getting love, and while that fixes 75% of the game, the 25% minority is getting fed up (Dropships, Tanks, Scouts, etc).
From what I have gathered on the forums, this is what will make this game a "Tactical Shooter" which is what you guys want apparently.
You need Scouts that scout. Logi's that support (NOT attack), Assaulter's that make up the front lines, Heavies that take coordinated efforts to bring down, Dropships that survive long enough to give air support, Tanks that require coordinated efforts to be taken down, LAV's that actually SUPPORT infantry (lightning raids, rapid transportation, hit and run (not splatter and run))
Make the suits have some balance against each other.
For example;
The speed of a scout makes it effective against lone heavies, allowing them to outmanuver their slower foe, and their high DPS in CQC should make short work of him. However, an Assault at mid range would be very deadly to a scout if he were to try to attack. A scout should still be able to run away (thats what his speed is for right?), and to successfully kill a scout trying to run away, would require planning and probably more than one person. It would be the same as finding a criminal running in a building. You put men at the exits, and you box him in until he has nowhere left to run.
Medium Frames should be effective in all scenario's yet not a master in them. Their prime area is their versatility, being able to adapt their tactics to fit the need, always trying to get the enemy at a disadvantage, NOT themselves at an advantage. For example, engage scouts at mid-range (Scouts are only good in CQC). Attack heavies in groups (Give him more than one target to shoot at, he can only fire in one direction. Concentrated fire will kill him). They should move up to engage longer range opponents by moving from cover to cover, using their average speed and health to allow them to survive until the target is at a disadvantage.
Heavy Frames should be effective against medium suits at close-mid range with that HMG. That gun should shread through people not under cover, and force people to take cover. This allows the front-line to move forward. Since you are Aggro'ing at that point, the high eHP is important, allowing you to tank damage long enough for your front lines to move up. You stay still, they move up, you heal, rinse, repeat.
How the classes should be:
Make scouts great in 1v1's and CQC, but unable to survive sustained fire, making battle's against groups of enemies futile (thats the Assaulter's job). Give them WP for doing their job. Scanners should give WP on kills on detected enemies.
Make Logi's tough enough to SURVIVE behind the front lines. They should not be on the front lines (that's the Assaulter's job), they should give the Assault's a reason to fall back if need be. Mainly for health and ammo. They rez teammates after they push up, not sprinting to the front lines in a rambo revive (you have a 30 second timer for a reason)
Make Assaulter's versatile, and a "Jack of all Trades". They should be tough, yet flexible. Leave specialization to the other classes, you are there to be a Soldier. Proficient with your weapon of choice, and skilled at using it in that role. AR's should be an all around weapon, yet not outshine any other weapons specialization (Skilled in all, Master of None).
Make Heavies a force to be reckoned with. They should be the pushers, and the defenders. A heavy should be so tough, it should make the front line focus on him to take him down. They should help push the front line forward, by making the enemy fall back to cover. They should be able to shut down hallways, and mow down infantry and small vehicles with the HMG.
Dropships should be a form of air support and rapid transport. Think of the Transport chopper in BF3. Dang useful when used right. It could allow you to drop a whole squad in from the air, and even let your gunners clear the LZ, or help in an assault. Just like a chopper would.
Tanks need to shred though Armor, and Infantry at long-mid range. Close range is their weakness, but they should require coordinated efforts by AV to take down. They are the "big boys" for a reason. A lone AV should discourage attack but not kill. Two should wound a Tank FORCING it to move or be killed. Three AV should be the magical kill zone, (assuming standard meta level, ADV AV vs. ADV Tank, etc etc.)
If you fix these things, you WILL get your tactical shooter that most CPM's claim to want. I know this will not be instant, but I can wait, so long as I know that you are headed in this direction.
***EDIT***
Can a CPM or someone please fix the typo in my Thread Name? It should be "stand" not "Standing". Don't know how I missed that, and it's starting to aggravate me  |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
1158
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
:P Just so you know, we don't have edit powers. But you can fix your own thread title. The topic is at the top of the edit page.
As far as roles/balance go, there's apparently some kind of staged releases going on. Logi's coming up soonish, but I don't know about the others at this time. I do agree that roles need to be more clearly defined and we need to get out of this one size owns all business that we have currently.
As a CPM we're looking to get a meeting with the guys in charge of balance (Not to dictate to them, but to ask them about their 'process' to try to figure out what's going through their mind when they make these changes, how they make balancing decisions, and what 'roles' they see everything doing, etc)
From there, we'll see. But I totally agree with your post. |
Cody Sietz
Tritan's Onslaught
RISE of LEGION
574
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Posted - 2013.07.19 15:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
All threads about about balance should have a redirect to this one. |
Ghost Kaisar
Intrepidus XI
EoN.
166
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Posted - 2013.07.19 19:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:All threads about about balance should have a redirect to this one.
Thanks. I tried to be as impartial as possible. |
Luther Mandrix
Planetary Response Organisation
86
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Posted - 2013.07.22 19:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nova when are you having another Cast514? |
Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2013.07.23 03:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sounds pretty good.
I would modify "Assaults" being jack of all trades to "Medium Frame" being jack of all trades.
In my opinion Assault to should be an offensive/defensive role with less utility.
To this end I would consider giving the basic medium frame suits two equipment slots (with appropriate tweaks to fitting and other slots).
This would also provide a smoother transition into the logistics line and the assault line, and it would follow the T1/T2 paradigm of Eve.
I also have issues with a single dedicated AV player, in a dedicated AV fitting not being able to solo a tank. That's a much more complicated issue though. |
RedRebelCork
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
182
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Posted - 2013.07.23 10:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Something to keep in mind is that the roles need to be competitive in both pub games and PC.
If you make the logi unable to participate in combat without giving it major bonuses to the team besides the equipment we have now noone will use it, simple as that. Especially in PC battles where you need every one of your 16 man team to be putting rounds down range you're not gonna sacrifice a shooter for a couple of equipment slots. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
58
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Posted - 2013.07.23 14:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
In general I agree the roles could be a bit more specific. But don't forget it's a sandbox game without classes so basicly you are not limited by a class in what you do. The only limits you have is your Dropsuit and your skill layout. And limiting Dropsuit in a class like system is not a good idea for a sandbox game. |
Ghost Kaisar
Intrepidus XI
EoN.
181
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 14:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Dropsuit in a class like system is not a good idea for a sandbox game.
Then why on earth are there specializations and different classes of dropsuits? The sandbox Theme IMO allows your class to have some flexibility, but not enough to become another class altogether.
For example, a fast assault, A stealthy Logi, or a tough scout. |
Killar-12
Intrepidus XI
EoN.
289
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 18:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:IMO, a Class Balance gives all of the Classes a role. It gives them strengths and weaknesses and rewards them for doing their job. Right now, it seems like Logi's and Assaults are the only ones getting love, and while that fixes 75% of the game, the 25% minority is getting fed up (Dropships, Tanks, Scouts, etc).
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xAckie
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
270
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 08:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
there needs to be a look at module balancing and staking penalties for Logis specifically.
Logi suit is the go to suit for a very good reason. You can shield thank then:
stack speed and stamina modules and go shotgun and run faster and jump higher than a scout and carry equipment
you can carry equipment (remotes, nanohive, droplinks etc) while having shields and armour good enough for PC as an assault while attacking as an assault
just to name two possible routes.
reducing CP/ PG on suits just means logi assautls will carry one less equipment piece etc. But still focusing on slaying.
CCP could reduce a high slot to stop effective shield tanking. And /or something along the lines of forcing equipment to be carried in the slots - that are equivalent to the meta level of the weapon they are using. This would reduce the assault focus of the suit.
However:
The problem of the logi really came about when the remove the 2 equipment slots from the proto assault suit (to promote logi play) as it was felt why go logi when the assault can do it - in retrospect it was more balanced before. The differences / benefits between the two classes were not as distinct.
Assaults were assaults and logis were for healing. CCP might have had the balance right the first time... and an easier way to do it than the above tinkering.
the scout also had two equipment slots though this was at tier 3 I think. But then the scout suit is so broken in this game I dont know where to begin - I feel very sorry for them.
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xAckie
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
270
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Posted - 2013.07.24 08:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:In general I agree the roles could be a bit more specific. But don't forget it's a sandbox game without classes so basicly you are not limited by a class in what you do. The only limits you have is your Dropsuit and your skill layout. And limiting Dropsuit in a class like system is not a good idea for a sandbox game.
If it was a sandbox game without classes we wouldnt have different class suits - but one suit frame from which you skill into different types of slots to build the suit however you want. But thats not what we have. We have fixed inflexible suits within a broken class system |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
62
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Posted - 2013.07.24 11:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
xAckie wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:In general I agree the roles could be a bit more specific. But don't forget it's a sandbox game without classes so basicly you are not limited by a class in what you do. The only limits you have is your Dropsuit and your skill layout. And limiting Dropsuit in a class like system is not a good idea for a sandbox game. If it was a sandbox game without classes we wouldnt have different class suits - but one suit frame from which you skill into different types of slots to build the suit however you want. But thats not what we have. We have fixed inflexible suits within a broken class system
We dont really have classes, what we have is equipment e.g. a dropsuit you skill into that suit and get some bonusses for this suit. Now you could do anything you want with that suit as long as you can fit the necessary stuff. If we ad real classes their would be restirictions and class exclusiv gear thats simply not the case. And for the Dropsuitfitting system is quite flexible. |
xAckie
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
270
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Posted - 2013.07.24 13:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:xAckie wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:In general I agree the roles could be a bit more specific. But don't forget it's a sandbox game without classes so basicly you are not limited by a class in what you do. The only limits you have is your Dropsuit and your skill layout. And limiting Dropsuit in a class like system is not a good idea for a sandbox game. If it was a sandbox game without classes we wouldnt have different class suits - but one suit frame from which you skill into different types of slots to build the suit however you want. But thats not what we have. We have fixed inflexible suits within a broken class system We dont really have classes, what we have is equipment e.g. a dropsuit you skill into that suit and get some bonusses for this suit. Now you could do anything you want with that suit as long as you can fit the necessary stuff. If we ad real classes their would be restirictions and class exclusiv gear thats simply not the case. And for the Dropsuitfitting system is quite flexible.
if thats the case why are there dropsuits for: heavies, scouts, logis and assault classes - CCP call these suits classes because that is what they are.
The fact that there are different slots, pg cpu, etc are about creating/ entrenching that class structure.
Not having classes would be to have a vanilla suit and skill into L, H, S G slots etc and fit it as you please
as to restrictions on weapons equipment - well that would strengthen the class structure, I agree - it would most probably avoid the mess they are in now - but yes it would remove flexibility - unless you skill into more than 1 class.
Personally, the suits seem to have been thought about as if they were a vehicle class rather than infantry
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Niuvo
The Phoenix Federation
348
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Posted - 2013.08.15 20:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
excellent post ghost. |
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