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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1307
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Posted - 2013.07.19 01:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
The Cal logi suit is expected and not uncalled for. The Amarr suit buffs are very nearly what I've been suggesting personally so no complaints there  the overall trend towards removing even more eHP from Logi suits in "upcoming updates" rather than fixing the weak Assault suit bonuses concerns me more than a little. Non-'slayer' logi already have trouble surviving while actively doing their job and no amount of equipment buff is going to change that (longer range on the repair too may be a mild exception to that statement but nothing to write home about. A substantial buff to injector range could help greatly and if that's coming then the race which gets it will be more protected.
Two more fundamental flaws with equipment based skills for logi [list=1]
Equipment WP scaling is still broken (until this is fixed most buffs to equipment will actually nerf earnings for support logi by lowering their overall potential. If the new WP system is rolled out with these updates then this won't be a problem, until then it is.
Constrains player choice - I'm not talking about trying to play "slayer" here, I'm talking about how many types of equipment there are to support with and how if you bind each race to one type you artificially force players into builds with those specific types. In addition to making innovation more difficult by constraining equipment loadouts, a problem that will only get worse as more equipment is added to the game, you also make fittings more transparent on the battlefield weakening tactical options. Logi being yellow is one thing, logi being yellow and everyone knowing that X race equals Y equipment is something else again. Don't like footholds? Target the "uplink" logi, in a protracted firefight or trying to take out an entrenched position? Target the repair and revive logi. Want to be a 'slayer' in a logi suit? Proto the nanohive logi and run a core flaylock 
Further there has been no counter balance the Logi suits gain to compensate for the nerf. Prior to these changes the two suits base stats were balanced when fittings were included. I spent a lot of time on the forums asking anyone to construct a Logi suit that was more powerful than an Assault suit of the same race after bringing the logi up match the on board values of the assault. The net result of the few fittings I ever saw (mostly constructed by myself or some of the folks in the shields vs armor balance thread) is that logi suits prior to the change would cost more in SP and ISK than an assault suit doing the same thing and would pay extra on top of that in the cases where they might be able to exceed the assault.
The racial skill buffs were a problem, mostly the Cal suit bonus and the buffs for the assault suits generally but those require skill reworks not role wide suit nerfs. So, what has been added role wide to compensate for the nerfs that are now creating an imbalance within the medium frames (or is the plan to never fix the racial skills and use the suit changes to counter that? ).
Ok I'm leaving this here because it's already long, but in short the current changes seem generally called for/positive but the described/intended balance presented in the Dev Blog seems to be ignoring the feedback forums and several key longstanding balance aspects. CCP needs to seriously reconsider this course and I hope there is someone on the CPM who understands playing support logi well enough to keep this problem at the forefront of discussion regarding suit balance.
My 0.02 ISK,
Sincerely,
Been playing support Logi since closed beta |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1308
|
Posted - 2013.07.19 01:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Toyboi wrote:Plz understand EVERYTHING that can be abused will be abused.
True.
Quote: they might aswell remove the assault suit! everything the assault suit can do the logi can do better. and unfortunatly this will still be true after 1.3
False.
Support your second statement with fittings. I've been offering this challenge on the forums since the start of the build. I've posted it in general and in feedback and frankly no one has been able to supply fittings which support the erroneous presumption that assaults are the lessor suits.
Leaving racial/role skills aside (those aren't balanced but that's a skill issue and needs to be addressed there), build your best assault fitting within a race, then build a logi fitting within that race allowing no stat to be less than it's equivalent on the assault.
Now compare the total SP and ISK costs for both fittings and list them at the bottom of each fit for all to see. Use only base values because they're visible to all in the market and because anything else is once again a skill mod not a function of gear. Final step comes in two parts, part one fill all slots with something to the best of your fittings resources (bonus points if you actually accomplish this) step two check your weapon slots and make sure that none of them contain a weapon from the AR line (if you can't build a viable fit without use of the AR then the balance issue isn't suit based).
The disparity between shield and armor tanking is also an issue in favor of the assault suits but I won't rehash that can of worms in this post.
~Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1369
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 17:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Cross, don't you think its a sort of zero sum game at this point. Any gank/dps/slayer bonus you add to assaults makes everyone less survivable? So aren't we just left with trying to facilitate logistics racial 'synergy' with general play styles of slayers?
I'm wondering if what CCP is saying that they are doing now is giving everything a:
Racial specialization bonus-suit bonus-and role bonus?
Check my "Nanohive Alchemy" post and give some feedback there if you would please. I think one last thing that armor tanking is really missing it the evolution of its meta; is ALOT more healing nanohives on the field. Assaults should be running around with a mix of allotek hives, and other ammo hives, and I've found that it really buffs my team to have triage hives around, not to mention it is fairly risk free point gain.
I'm predicting a come back of the laser rifle, soon, and a nerf to the flaylock will mean a much healthier margin for armor tankers. In addition we will start to see the remaining weapons trickle in. The rail weapons will fill out, which will also mean some more challenges for armor tanks, they will also likely be the smarter weapons for armor tankers to equip with some of the best precision for longer range attacks.
Also with the addition of the plasma and laser heavy weapons, the anti-shield stand-off weapons will finally come into play. The plasma heavy weapon will probably be the most deadly weapon out there. The availability of a wide range of side-arms, especially the hybrid rail variants, will very likely mean that a lot of assaults will effectively have two light weapons.
I just don't know if I'd push that much harder for balance until we get all the weapons that are out there. And even then, people have to skill in to them, the community then has to learn the counters and things then have to settle down.
To an extent I agree that there is a zero sum gaming going on here, where that breaks down however is that we're not in a binary system where resources (in this case dps vs eHP) are divided between two competing 'parties'. There are multiple suits, even more when races are considered and still more when diverse fittings are accounted for. With this level of flex it is important to maintain as much baseline stability as possible so that player choice maintains relevance, altering mechanics in such a way that an entire role and thus all races and fits within it, is completely incapable of doing something is quite frankly a very heavy handed way to go about things. Even the heavy frame now has an option to carry equipment, granted it's only one and there are trade-offs but it promotes flex.
In the case of, broadly speaking, "Assault dps vs Logi survival" I think there should indeed be balance but that balance is best found by looking at the zero sum case of eHP vs DPS in the wider view of class roles. The zero sum says 'if A is attacking B then 10 more damage from A is equal to 10 less starting HP for B" but it fails to account for the wider situation. Logi and Assaults should be combat balance in a general sense, but a Logi should not be as effective a 'slayer' as an Assault leading to the conclusion that Assaults should have more 'gank' while Logi suits should emphasize 'tank' (all statements made within the context of comparing medium frames).
If CCP is adding another layer "Racial specialization bonus-suit bonus-and role bonus" then that would be a better solution. It allows a lot more flex for balance than replacing the current buffs with equipment specific ones. It would still have to overcome the constraining of fits to a race such that mercs can on sight read the likely fits of a player but that aside it's a much more effective solution.
I'll check out your thread thanks for the heads up on that.
Cheers,
Cross |
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