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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
726
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Posted - 2013.07.18 14:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Really? First?
Anyway...
Quote:The new Logistics skill bonus isnGÇÖt ideally suited to the Logistics role and is a short-term alteration until proper equipment bonuses come online. Once they do weGÇÖll outline the full skill changes in another blog.
Does this mean we lose the +1 HP/s to armor per level? |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
726
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 14:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:Quote:These changes are intended to alleviate some of the current issues with the Logistics suits, but they're still not getting us where we want to be with the suits. A technical issue is currently preventing us from authoring suit bonuses that alter equipment functionality. This might be unfair to highlight, but this sounds more like a design flaw that you haven't had time to fix yet than a technical issue.
I imagine it could be pretty tough to plan for the many ways this could be implemented. I would guess that the ideas for logis started pretty logically with, "If we give them all those equipment slots, they should realize their specialized role and exploit that."
However, the meta evolved otherwise, as the SP progression speed meant that people first would spec into primary weapons -> fittings -> tank type -> other modules -> secondary weapons -> then equipment (and maybe even vehicles a bit before equipment). This means people probably have 7-8 mill SP worth of investment before getting onto any proto equipment.
The player base was never really enlightened enough to recognize the benefit of equipment, generally. I'd blame the general resistance for people to squad together, which makes cooperative gameplay that involves equipment. The evolution of the meta is a pretty difficult thing to predict. Because it evolved the way it did, tank and DPS were preferred, and while the logi was a suboptimal attacker in terms of overall potential DPS, the buffer of the caldari logi couldn't be matched.
If CCP has made a mistake it has been in their assumptions about our intelligence. They have mentioned this in their devblog talking about spending a few weeks ago. They are probably too optimistic most of the time, but that is to their credit.
Anyway, designing a system that somehow will be able to figure out how to apply DROPSUIT bonuses to deployed equipment will have to descriminate bonuses whether that suit giving the bonuses is being worn or not.
The current problem probably has something to do with:
What happens if the caldari suit gets a deployable shield HP bonus while the gallente logi gets a armor repair tool bonus and the amarr logi gets a nanohive repair bonus. If you get in a caldari suit, drop a shield, then get in an amarr suit and drop a repair hive, then get in a gallente suit and get a repair tool, what bonus applies when you are healing people's armor inside the shield and they are standing on their hive? |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
729
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Posted - 2013.07.18 15:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
reydient wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Unmei no Hoeru wrote:Yeah finally the amarr logistic won't be the underdog, and on top of that the assault caldari will be really more than the cheaper version of the basic fit.
PD: I want this to be a different message for not shallow my true thanks, but isn't 3 PG a little too ... well little. Especially when at proto level the difference between the other logistics is like 12 PG (don't take me on that one, I am not close to the console right now) but never the less thank you for these updates. Good memory. The difference is 66pg amarr, 78 for everyone else as I recall. 69 is still lowish compared to the others... I guess with engineering and core maxed, that's 30% more PG, which means you can effectively get 4 more PG... ish.? With skills maxed? Maybe? I think the point of the the Amarr logi is to get the job done with the worst equipment possible hahaha
This is probably looking forward toward whatever the Amarr's logi bonus will eventually be. Effectiveness to armor repairers translates to maybe one less repairers, or reduced fittings costs on equipment. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
730
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Posted - 2013.07.18 17:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Assaults generally have 20% more base HP while having 30% less fitting. At max skills a Proto Caldari Logi has +87 CPU and +22.5 PG over assault. Other logi suits come out a little more ahead on CPU or PG.
If you look at average fitting requirements for equipment modules...
Avg STD/MLT equipment CPU/PG: 32/6 (x3) = 96/18
Avg ADV equipment CPU/PG: 45/8 (x3) = 135/24
Given that the assault suit has greater base HP, and a sidearm, any logi that tries to fill his equipment slots AND go assault spec, they will have to have an eHP that is worse than an assault now, not have a sidearm, and not have a role with a bonus that relates to damage.
The alternative is to take advantage of the fitting flexibility to go for the extra eHP on a logi suit and forget the equipment slots. The only candidate for this would be the Caldari suit, which has +1H/+1L. With it's suit bonus, base HP, its 4 shield slots will have more HP than 5 full shields for the logi.
The minmatar logi wouldn't use the -1H/+1L for armor plate due to a speed penalty and the PG/CPU sacrifice in fittings.
The amarr logi is a new candidate for a battle logi. However if fit for max eHP, it would be too slow, or if fit for max repair rate, wouldn't have the competitive >700 eHP and still have the fitting space for good damage (proto weapons/grenade). The amarr assault would still be a better candidate, but it's playstyle is more defensive and medium range anyway.
The gallente logi would obviously be able to up-equip its equipment with its fittings bonus. However, its weapon fitting reduction on the assault would free up its slots to have the best survivable close range armor/dps combination vs. the amarr armor assault. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
731
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Posted - 2013.07.18 17:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
So my Gal Logi suit with a buch of equipment and better survivability than my assault suit is a lie?
Gal Logi is probably the closest thing to a trade off in terms of SURVIVABILITY only. At proto level your assault role bonus gives you an extra +28.75 shield HP/S after bonus and skills. The logi would get the 18.75 HP/S shield HP/s from max skills, and then +5 HP/s from native armor reps for 23.75 HP/s for non-module passive reps.
So base regen on Gal assault > base regen on logi by +5 or almost a free complex armor mod, or an enhanced shield recharger. So the delta on the regen bonus between them is roughly 1 free slot. The extra base HP also amounts to about 1 enhanced shield or basic armor mod with max skills. So it's as if base stats and max skills gives the assault roughly a +2 slot tanking advantage.
The gal logi equipment bonus means you basically get 4 equipment for the price of 3. However the weapon fittings bonus for assault is a greater 'per slot' fittings bonus than the equipment bonus (unless you fit all proto equipment - which you couldn't while calling yourself an assault).
The most role efficient fit for gal assault would be AR or SG & SMG + best active tank/eHP combo.
The close range gal logi would be 1) slower by a bit 2) have less shield/armor regen 3) have a bit slower shield delay. It could make up for this with healing hives (an advanced equipment slot cutting into fitting room for tank). |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
731
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 18:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hawkin P wrote:So you traded in the Caladri Assault bonus from 25% reload speed to 10% better shield extenders? That is a max bonus of 28 extra shields in a proto suit that runs 4 complex shield extenders. Most likely in normal (Proto) use that means 14-21 extra shields.
So you took the worse Assault suit bonus and made it even worse!!! WTF!
Lets choose which would you rather have a Galante suit that gets 25% CPU/PG reduction to hybrid weapons or 7 extra hp per complex shield extender.
I just add this to your list of stupid ideas.
No.
Cal assault will now reign as the best sheild tank.
Max skills base shield regen: 35.9 HP/S (best delay and 4 slots)
Next best shield regen is gal assault @ 28.75 HP/S (but only 3 slots for shield and worst delay )
Next best shield suit = minnie assault @ 25.9 HP/S (next best delay timer ~15% faster sprint/run)
Next = cal logi @ 22.6 HP/S (best in class delay timer)
I wonder if the energizers and rechargers have a stacking penalty...hmmm... haven't seen that asked. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
735
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Posted - 2013.07.18 18:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
And who cares about "per slot"?
What's important is in the end hiw well your suit works, 4 slots who get -25% vs one slot that gets -25%.
*sigh*
4 slots who's average fitting cost is 25% less than weapons each get -25% fitting reduction (that's like a -12% cost really per module). Also the gallente bonus applies to hybrid weapons (which will eventually have a side-arm) so it would apply to 2 slots. But nobody plays for the long game, do they? It amounts to about the same in total fitting savings (like i said, unless you equip ADV and/or PRO in all equipment slots on the logi.
However I don't think you could convince me that you could fit a full rack of proto equipment on the gal-logi and have this same mythical performance as an assault logi. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
735
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Posted - 2013.07.18 18:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
And who cares about "per slot"?
What's important is in the end hiw well your suit works, 4 slots who get -25% vs one slot that gets -25%.
*sigh* 4 slots who's average fitting cost is 25% less than weapons each get -25% fitting reduction (that's like a -12% cost really per module). Also the gallente bonus applies to hybrid weapons (which will eventually have a side-arm) so it would apply to 2 slots. But nobody plays for the long game, do they? It amounts to about the same in total fitting savings (like i said, unless you equip ADV and/or PRO in all equipment slots on the logi. However I don't think you could convince me that you could fit a full rack of proto equipment on the gal-logi and have this same mythical performance as an assault logi. So? In the end it's about the same, neither have an advantage in that regard.
I would grant that the gal logi may have a tiny bit better tank, but when all of the hybrid weapons show up (bolt pistol, magsec SMG, rail rifle, ion pistol) not having these side-arms will be a foolish sacrifice as an assault. At med-long range, low speed won't be as significant of a disadvantage. As far as the shield rep comparison, tank is tank, and a fairly small shield buffer will matter, especially for the long range oriented skirmishy armor tanker. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
737
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Posted - 2013.07.18 19:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:I will say this too...
All these changes really do is ensure caldari logis cannot and will not run proto equipment. There's no way we can afford it now when running complex modules is taking up every last shread of CPU/PG.
Something needs to be done about the price of proto equipment for logis.. atm its impossible to fit it.
Give us a Logi 'k.1 variant with only a sidearm and a 50% reduction to equipment or something... atm im looking at my nanocirc 5 and my proto nanohives and i'm starting to feel like it was a wasted investment... there is absolutely no way I can fit proto equipment without giving up every single low slot I have to CPU/PG modules.
FWIW: I've already downgraded to a GEK in order to fit proto uplinks and quantum adv nanos.
Caldari Logis aren't the super equipment logis. That's for gallente. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
737
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Posted - 2013.07.18 19:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
zzZaXxx wrote:[quote=Beren Hurin]Caldari Logis aren't anything now.
Disagree. They arguably have 2 utility low slots they could use for hacking modules, biotics, or stealth mods. They would NOT be in CQC with that fit, but be able to sneak around to deploy equipment much better. |
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Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
742
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Posted - 2013.07.19 02:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cross, don't you think its a sort of zero sum game at this point. Any gank/dps/slayer bonus you add to assaults makes everyone less survivable? So aren't we just left with trying to facilitate logistics racial 'synergy' with general play styles of slayers?
I'm wondering if what CCP is saying that they are doing now is giving everything a:
Racial specialization bonus-suit bonus-and role bonus?
Check my "Nanohive Alchemy" post and give some feedback there if you would please. I think one last thing that armor tanking is really missing it the evolution of its meta; is ALOT more healing nanohives on the field. Assaults should be running around with a mix of allotek hives, and other ammo hives, and I've found that it really buffs my team to have triage hives around, not to mention it is fairly risk free point gain.
I'm predicting a come back of the laser rifle, soon, and a nerf to the flaylock will mean a much healthier margin for armor tankers. In addition we will start to see the remaining weapons trickle in. The rail weapons will fill out, which will also mean some more challenges for armor tanks, they will also likely be the smarter weapons for armor tankers to equip with some of the best precision for longer range attacks.
Also with the addition of the plasma and laser heavy weapons, the anti-shield stand-off weapons will finally come into play. The plasma heavy weapon will probably be the most deadly weapon out there. The availability of a wide range of side-arms, especially the hybrid rail variants, will very likely mean that a lot of assaults will effectively have two light weapons.
I just don't know if I'd push that much harder for balance until we get all the weapons that are out there. And even then, people have to skill in to them, the community then has to learn the counters and things then have to settle down.
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Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
751
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Posted - 2013.07.19 20:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:In regards to Gallente armor tanking, I'd like to see a bonus to repair tool efficacy for repair beams used on their suits.
I'd like to see that bonus come from reactive plates. Extra 10%/15%/20% healed remotely per reactive plate. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
760
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Posted - 2013.07.21 19:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
It all boils down to, "do people care that they help their team".
I've played with too many stupid snipers who think that KDR is everything. You couldn't convince someone otherwise if they get this in their head.
If you look however just at the WP that a lot of equipment gives...
+25 wp for healing someone as little as 25% of their health. So you could health someone for 200 wp or more, and basically save thier life 2x over, denying the enemy team 100 wp, potentially getting guardian points in the process.
+25 triage point from nanohives lets you kind of passively be generating wp while you are off doing something else.
+10 points from ammo resupply. When you are filling grenades, you will only be getting about +30-+50 points per hive, but if its other ammo you can be giving people/per resupply, at least enough ammo to kill multiply enemies. So you are contributing to the death of others with nanohives. Also, if slayers carry their own nanohives for their own use, in a way if they use it selfishly, they are denying their team valuable wp.
Additionally, well executed revives only help the team as well.
+25 points for a strategic team spawn means that those players wont have to traverse dangerous terrain.
All of these points are extremely valuable and their services from a dedicated support player are really only valuable to the team. As long as there is a huge chunk of players playing solo, the logibro will be undervalued. |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
831
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Posted - 2013.07.29 02:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm looking at the new amarr logi suits right now. WIth quite a few SP in core skills I'm looking at 440 eHP with 35.8 shield recharge/s and 28.4 armor/s.
This wouldn't be a brawler setup, but would certainly be pretty deadly fighting at range (>50m). |
Beren Hurin
K-A-O-S theory
844
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Posted - 2013.07.30 14:43:00 -
[15] - Quote
bcs1a wrote:I'm just trying to figure out why 4 of my suits are broken today and only one of them was the dren logi suit?
pg and cpu nerfed on non logi suits too?
I think they changed fittings for some flaylock pistols. |
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