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EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1438	Posted - 2013.07.18 10:35:00 - [1] - Quote Generally we have the rock/paper and scissor scenario Rock - Vehicles - Made to generally tank small arms fire and be fine from scissors Paper - AV - Hurts Rock but is weak to scissors Scissors - Infantry - Cuts a path through everything except rock Problem is everyone hates each other and doesnt want to use paper to destroy rock and think they should be able to do it with scissors while rock thinks it should take a group of paper to kill it while paper wants to do it solo. CCP have really messed up the balancing by generally hitting everything or one side with a nerf bat while buffing the other side but also it doesnt help when one side has advanced/proto and the otherside has basic. This has lead to massive imbalance between the 2 sides and whats even worse is that the balance between the 2 types of tanking (shield/armor) is just as unbalanced and vehicle users feel that they are forced to go into armor tanking whether they like it or not while pilots are completely screwed with each patch and build and are effectively flying a coffin. Not to mention the whole argument about teamwork how it only takes 1 HAV driver to annoy a whole team yet the same HAV driver is asking for AV to use teamwork to kill his HAV instead of a solo monkey which whacks his 1.5mil HAV in 3shots while he sunk 10mil into vehicle skills and the AV guy barely did a quarter of it. You can see why the HAV guy gets pissed off and i don't blame him but also the AV guy is like 'well i should be able to if he's stupid enough' which is valid for stupid pilots anyways and then add in the real world argument that a RPG can disable and destroy a mulit million dollar tank/helicopter. Both sides get pissed off and think they are right and it becomes a ** throwing forum match and i have taken part in a fair few and nothing ever comes of it and it eventually gets lost in the forums and forgotten about. The balance is one which will never truly happen but the only way to get it about right is if both sides can agree on a number of issues and for that to happen we need all the AV equipment which is going to be added and all the vehicles aswell but until that happens the next best step we can do is balance what we have and hopefully this thread can address a few issues and also solve a few too while hopefully adding some good ideas but expect bad ones aswell. At this current time i have 14mil SP invested into vehicles, i have both sets of HAVs (excluding useless Enforcers), armor/shield DS, armor Logi DS and a Logi LAV but i have a tried out all vehicles and destroyed all vehicles with everything the game has to offer at one point or another through the varying builds and take part in all game modes including PC where basic vehicles go against proto AV. I dont know it all but i know quite a bit and i know what pisses me off as vehicle pilot so if im slightly bias i can't help it but i try to be on the level with what i say and i try not to repeat myself but sometimes its needed because one thing can effect something else and so on until you come full circle. Essentially dont turn this into a ** throwing thread, disagree yes but put why and in some detail and dont have posts like 'learn to fly' which are useless because in the end both sides dont get what they want and end up in a worse position from where they started from. Its a long thread and there is no TLDR
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1438	Posted - 2013.07.18 10:35:00 - [2] - Quote Balancing So the way CCP has been balancing things is by watching the numbers in battles, even if its ambush where infantry spawn in anywhere and generally not in an AV suit either because they expect to kill infantry and not vehicles. Once a HAV is called in in ambush your screwed pretty much since you cannot swap suits in normal ambush because no supply depots and also the HAV user also have 5 infantry guys ready to mow down any AV. Instead if they want to take any numbers it should be from PC battles where they will regularly see basic vehicles against advanced/proto AV because pub matches involve teams where one side is just full of randoms against organized squads. Best solution to this is a Battlefield simulation room - this room would allow you use all weapons/vehicles and mods for testing purposes, kind of like what Planetside2 uses so you can get a feel for the latest weapons, also it could be doubled as a testing room to see how much damage a weapon does to something plus it wouldn't be for just dev use, players would undoubtedly love a tool such as this just to see if having that 3rd resistance mod on your DS will reduce an advanced swarm to justify its use for example. Even groups could use it to possibly test out tactics on a HAV while the HAV driver uses the test to see if his HAV could survive the situation. Overall this helps you perfect fits without having to throw away ISK and hope that you get a good team on the opposite side in a pub match which will bring out AV and test your HAV/DS because you don't want to test things in PC really where it may not work and could cost your team a win (long shot) Plus you will get numbers and stats on everything so you know how hard a SL hits with 1/2/3 damage mods and how much its reduced by with 1/2/3 resistance mods and same with rifles and SMGs against your dropsuit. Sure the real test is in a match but finding out how good your fit is before you go in definitely helps instead of having to risk it against an unknown quantity Basic problems Militia AV - It's too good, alot of players do use them against basic vehicles, you want players to try them out sure but you also want players to specialize into AV if they like it. Reduce militia AV by 50% damage Militia Vehicles - The LAV is generally too good now since the HP buff, even the HAV got a HP buff which wasn't needed, so remove the buff to militia vehicles, dropship stays the same. This would generally stop militia LAV as murder taxis since they would be more like paper so easier to take out AV nades - Many assault/logis use this as their main source of AV because they are skilled mostly into their primary and dropsuit/mods, problem is they are very good for knocking out a HAV on its own, the nades should be more of a deterrent and not as a standalone AV weapon to be put next to the SL/FG/PL, it should be used with the AV weapons. I would reduce the damage by 25-50%, also it would help if we could see how much damage they do to begin with Swarm launchers - They lock on fairly fast and you can generally bunny hop in front of your target and not get hit and still be able to launch GÇó The lock on time should be increased , 2sec or so GÇó Swarms should not be able to turn 180deg on a sixpence, many a time in a LAV im driving towards to missiles then I swerve and the missiles just stop in the air turn around and hit GÇó Invisible missiles are back - we can't see where they are being fired from so we can't kill the SL guy GÇó Lock on - Fire and forget it is really, no skill required, I would like to make it advanced/proto only and introduce other variants, such as a guided SL, you have to maintain lock for the missiles to hit, this would have a damage increase and also possibly a missile velocity increase, downside is if you lose lock the missiles are lost and if you regain lock it's too late due to missile velocity and lock on time. I would like to see a dumb fire variant but the problem is it would be like the very old SL where it was spammed against infantry more than vehicles and OHK all infantry like what happened in the 1st build Forge Guns - Stats - Comparison with Proto Railguns GÇó Breach FG - 2772 Damage, 277.2 Splash damage, 1.5m Blast radius, 6sec charge time GÇó Compressed particle cannon - 1798.7 Damage, 292.5 Splash damage, 2.5m splash radius, 2.2sec fire interval, 0.3 charge time GÇó Assault FG - 1663.2 Damage, 277.2 Splash damage, 3m Blast radius, 2.5sec charge time GÇó Particle cannon - 1438.9 Damage, 234 Splash damage, 2.5 Blast radius, 1.8sec fire interval, 0.3sec charge time Add in skills that FG get a 25% reduction to charge time and 15% damage increase where as turrets get 15% damage also but nothing else, but the base value the FG are consistently stronger than the railguns all through from basic to proto and also fire faster with max skills when using the assault FG Problem is this is going against the basic vehicles, the basic armor tank I tend to see is about the 6700armor mark where as shield is at 5500 fitted out, going by this advanced tanks fitted out we would be seeing close to 8k armor and 6.8 shield and proto tanks reaching 10k and more which would then take these proto FG a clip or so to take out or even a couple of proto guys (argue over teamwork later) but these advanced and proto vehicles would be the most expensive things in the game in SP and ISK but the payoff is worth it for vehicle users.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1438	Posted - 2013.07.18 10:37:00 - [3] - Quote Now the problem is we can't really change AV as such because we don't have advanced/proto vehicles and if/when they are added if they are stronger and have more armor/shield and it can stand up to proto then the jobs a good one. So for now we have to deal with proto AV vs basic vehicles or to balance the playing field until advanced/proto vehicles are added temporarily remove advanced/proto AV so its basic AV going against basic vehicles. I know this option will not go down well to AV guys skilled into proto but also think of it this way, how would you like to not even be able to dent a stationary proto HAV because you are basic AV? you wouldn't and how many players including infantry would call for the removal of proto vehicles if this was the case? the vast majority would want them removed Plasma cannon - I dont see this used alot if at all, the projectile is slow, its trajectory is basically fall to the ground as quick as possible, CQC range, FG & SL are better AV options AV & vehicle payouts - If you specialize into these roles expect no isk even if you kill 4 enforcers in a game totalling 6mil ISK, you will be lucky to get 300k. You cannot make a profit unless you don't die for several games unless you want to run militia suits because all your SP is into vehicles. In general we need bigger payouts to make us feel more useful and also to reward those who go into the roles to begin with, I suggest that anyone who kills anything gets 50% more ISK and anyone who assists gets 25% Example - AV/vehicle guy kills a 1mil ISK HAV, he gets 500k as a reward for killing that HAV, the guy who got an assist for also helping killing that HAV gets 250k This would be in pub matches and FW matches and in PC I would make it that whoever wins the PC gets 100% of the ISK value of anything killed instead of the base 1mil or so. It ups the ante in every part of the game with DUST and rewards those who do well no matter what they skilled into Would it make everyone rich? would make players careful in bringing out the good stuff but at least if they knew they would get paid for killing the good stuff then its their choice Armor vs Shield - Shield is weaker in every single battle when against an armor tank, if both tanks have the same fit the shield fit will generally lose and lose badly Armor has great resistance modules - 60sec on 15 sec cooldown, 25% resist, keep it as it is its fine since everything which is not a FG hurts armor alot more Shield on the other hand - 10sec on 30sec cooldown,30% resist, it's not good at all even for a hit and run player it simply doesn't last long enough against AV or tanks, now if it was improved and lasted for 30sec on and 30sec off then it would be alot better and shield would hopefully be used a bit more and could stand up to a bit more punishment Shield Boosters - Generally on a 5k tank the booster reps about 1.5 back with the best booster doing 328HP per pulse where as the best armor repper does 414HP per pulse not including skills, max skills increase rep rate by 15% so shield can rep about 1900 where as armor is closer to 2400. The difference being 500hp which takes 19sec to passively rep back using the passive shield recharge rate, a slight buff would help so it doesn't take more than 2 uses of the boost to get back to full shield or thereabouts Passive shield tanking - In EVE it's an option, you can passive tank at over 50HP/s or more which is okay but in DUST you can't do that, even using shield recharging modules barely pushes it up above 40 and that is using the Ward shield regenerator x3 on a Gunlogi and max shield recharging skills. Also in EVE adding shield extenders also adds to the passive recharge rate which doesnt happen in DUST Speed should also be on the shield side, stats wise both tanks are the same after the armor tank has a plate put on it but without armor is faster even though as a base it has at least 1k armor more and more armor should mean more mass so the acceleration would be slower but top speed maybe slightly faster due to more mass and espc if you go downhill but with that said the shield tank should be faster in general from rotation to acceleration to general movement speed Locking vehicles - Should be 3 types of locks, squad lock, corp lock and just a general lock everyone out Kicking players out of vehicles - We have a couple of face buttons spare to use but also we might not want to kick out all the turret users if you're a DS pilot, so we could have a flat kick everyone out of the vehicle including players at turrets as a short term measure. Long term we would like to be able to boot selective players ie all those not at a turret or even the left side turret guy Mobile supply depot - Exactly as it sounds and is like the MCRU, can be fitted to vehicles and made as standard in Logi LAV/DS and even HAV if they make a Logi variant Vehicle modules - We seem to be missing advanced/proto mods, we have also just light and heavy reppers/boosters and shield extenders (armor plates have 60/120 and 180 plates) and we will need medium reppers/boosters/shield extenders for MAVs Vehicles without turrets - It is our vehicle, we should be able to do what we want with it, plus if we can remove turrets we can come up with more fits and uses for vehicles Advanced /Proto vehicles - Should have more base shield/armor/CPU/PG and slots than the HAV/LAV/DS before it just like dropsuits, also when advanced/proto vehicles are added and with more slots put the extra slots in the correct areas. Example - Surya - 3high 5low - The extra slot is the 3rd high slot which on an armor tank is kinda useless, that was we classed as an advanced tank or as advanced as we could get but proto AV still hurt it and hit very hard, if that extra slot was added to the lows we may have been able to tank slightly better and survive longer (just)
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1438	Posted - 2013.07.18 10:39:00 - [4] - Quote Full customisable controls - For DS3 & KB + M - I would love to be able to assign keys or empty face buttons to boosters and heat sinks or whatever i deemed as important enough to get its own button, also i wouldnt mind moving keys around Example - Keyboard - E is used for entering & exiting a vehicle, problem for me is that it is next to the W which is used for moving forwards and sometime i press E by accident instead of pressing W, i would like to move the entering & exiting button to M for example so it is as far away as possible and i dont press it by accident unless my cat jumps on the keyboard Dropships Logi DS - They are good with an inbuilt MCRU, I also feel they should have an inbuilt supply depot which would refill ammo and nades, this would also make the DS useful and it would be used as a taxi more often ferrying players from point to point Lack of WP - No WP except for kill assists atm, it's wrong it stops them from using MCRUs and ferry players across the battlefield Need the HP buff - All vehicles got it except DS and they are already like a paper brick Assault dropships - Firing the pilots turret is easy, aiming on the otherhand is guesswork and with practise you can work it out using the 3rd person camera because the FPV mode from the dropship is useless unless you want to nosedive the dropship everytime you want to shoot at someone. We need a turret camera so you can look down at the ground without having to crash or use TPV mode, plus it needs to be independent from the vehicle flight controls slightly so you can move the turret around without having to move the dropship if you dont want to. I suggest use the left analog stick for the turret controls and use the right analog stick for moving the dropship backwards/forwards/left and right but only when you are using the turret camera so once you exit the turret camera the controls revert to what they usually are and you can escape or do whatever Countermeasures - Especially needed against swarms, you cannot outrun swarms generally and you can hide in your redline so they cut out but if your trying to support your ground troops with players spawning from the MCRU or even taking a risk and repping a HAV for example you are a sitting duck while hovering. We need ECM to disable to lock and also prevent the lock onto vehicles, also armor HAVs could use this module and since it would be against SL which target armor i would see this being a high slot module which requires CPU and 0 PG and recharges every min but is used for say 30sec as an example Flying - The chromosome build i felt was the best build to fly a dropship, they were responsive and did what you asked of them, this build they are very temperamental and will not hover and stay still and will consistently move and slightly turn like a gust of wind is moving the DS LAV Militia LAV - Take away its HP buff, also add an ISK value to it, Militia HAV/DS cost ISK like 138-60k for the HAV so why are LAVs free? Make it cost 20k per LAV and if it costs ISK then the spam will be decreased except for those with BPO LAVs Weight - All LAV are generally light as a feather and flip far too easily, they need to have more weight added to them and stiffer suspension so they don't bounce around on the terrain like a kid on a bouncy castle HAV Enforcer HAVs - Remove them, they are not useful at all, I see them stomp around in ambush matches more than in a PC match, glass cannons with not enough firepower to boot and a basic tank can take them out every time The description on the Enforcers is also misleading and wrong 'The Enforcer class possesses the greatest damage output and offensive reach of all HAVs' Shield Enforcer - Bonus to missiles - Medium range if that, generally not too good at medium due to missile flight time Armor Enforcer - Bonus to Blasters - Short range weapon, CQC beast Only turret we have which is capable of long range is the railgun and it will continue to be until Lasers and Artillery turrets are added Impact damage - A LAV has no problem running over a player, a HAV on the other hand seems to push them across the map until you go over a bump and the player ends up under the HAV then they will die, they don't even take a little bit of the damage when you are pushing them Turrets Railguns - Faster projectile speed, it's still quite slow, its slow enough to see the shell dip on long range shots and you do have to lead your shots, the railgun is supposed to fire shells at high velocity speeds (3,500m/s) so it should be an instant hit no matter how far away the target is since the range limit is 600m Railguns - Range is capped 600m, maybe with the current size of the maps i can see why but if and when maps become larger and draw distance is increased i feel so should the range of the railgun and perhaps the FG too since it uses the same technology Railguns - Assault FG has a 3m blast radius with 277 splash where as the particle cannon does 2.5m blast radius and 234 splash, once again the handheld version does more splash and has a bigger damage radius than the vehicle mounted railgun Skills Vehicle engineering - We need that 5% PG per level, dropsuits get it but vehicles don't, its totally unfair Shield/ Armor core upgrades - They used to add 5% shield/armor per level and instead they got replaced with 2% shield/armor resistance per level and the missing HP got added to all vehicles except dropships. So this means if you have no vehicles skills you still get that extra HP because it was added to all vehicles. This takes away a little bit of specialization from vehicle users, we should have the 5% shield/armor per level because once again dropsuits get skills which increase shield/armor by 5% per level
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1438	Posted - 2013.07.18 10:41:00 - [5] - Quote Logi vehicles - All logi vehicles should get the 2% bonus to shield/armor resistances Logi vehicles - Currently you only need level 1 to use a Logi vehicle, I would hope in the future that level 3 & 5 would give access to 2 advanced/proto Logi vehicles which are slightly better but at the cost of more SP and ISK PG/CPU saving skills - They are everywhere, even on mods which require more PG than CPU or vice versa, take vehicle engineering saving 5% CPU per level on a mod that uses 20CPU so you save 5 CPU which is generally useless All vehicle command skills in general - In comparison with the dropsuit skills they have more choice but also the skills follow a set pattern, get a basic frame to whatever level and then you can unlock the next set of specialized dropsuits Now this does happen with the vehicles to get the Enforcers or the Logi LAV/DS but what we are missing are the advanced/prototype basic HAV/LAV/DS and also the advanced and prototype Logi LAV/DS and Enforcers which are slightly better than the next one, has more slots/CPU/PG to boot but also cost more SP and ISK at levels 3 & 5 EDIT: LAVs - Rollcage added to advanced/proto LAVs Installations - They should not shoot unless someone is in it controlling it, they are more accurate than when ppl use it EDIT: Top small turret on the big gun should be independent from the big gun, so if the big turret moves left and the small turret is looking right the small turret doesnt move with the big gun like it currently does EDIT: Vehicle recall - It is getting abused a little Example - HAV getting whacked by an enemy, he jumps out and manages to recall it saving it 2 problems here for me 1. If the vehicle is getting whacked by an enemy and the enemy is causing damage you shouldnt be able to recall it till maybe 30secs after the last bit of damage - It stops players hopping out and instantly recalling it 2. If the vehicle is below 30% of its total HP it cannot be recalled - This gives the attacking AV or vehicle a chance to kill the vehicle and it stops johnny from nipping out and doing a 5sec button press to instantly recall it before its about to die Now this would be ideal with squad lock and the ability to kick players out of vehicles because atm if someone is in your tank you cannot recall it or get rid of them or prevent them from entering your tank in the 1st place EDIT: Vehicle skills Some skills offer resistance to either shield or armor like core upgrades does, problem is that they stack with other skills that offer resistance bonuses like the LLAV So when you put on that 1st resistance plate it is already getting hit with the stacking penalty I feel that skills shouldnt be effected by stacking penaltys and only the modules themselves should get hit with stacking penaltys Reposted because it got moved to feedback and requests where i already made a duplicate post in F&R, this is the general discussions version
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1438	Posted - 2013.07.18 12:17:00 - [6] - Quote Soldiersaint wrote: the enforcer is meant for ranged combat.....READ THE DESCRIPTION.....its not meant to get up close.... lol he thinks blasters and lolmissiles are long range Okay mr infantry man you can go and play with the other children now
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1439	Posted - 2013.07.18 13:01:00 - [7] - Quote Poplo Furuya wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Soldiersaint wrote: the enforcer is meant for ranged combat.....READ THE DESCRIPTION.....its not meant to get up close.... lol he thinks blasters and lolmissiles are long range Okay mr infantry man you can go and play with the other children now It doesn't matter what end of an argument you're on, whether you're right or whether you're wrong, a mixture of condescension coupled with a lack or proper explanation is not going to win over or convince anyone. It's stuff like this that weakens the case for vehicles. If 'vehicle user' becomes synonymous with 'condescending prick' in people's minds... yeah. Not helpful. As for the blasters and missiles, blasters are short range and bleed damage efficiency fast, with stabilised blasters sacrificing short range punch for a bit more range. Missiles are contingent on direct hits but their travel time makes moving targets that aren't 100% predictable an unlikely prospect past medium range. Accelerated missiles are slightly better about this but it's still an issue. They're effective long range so long as the target's stationary but really they're only reliable at shorter ranges. Someone skilled at aiming based on tracking and prediction could perhaps make them workable at mid but that's about it. They are not long range end of and lolmissiles are just that The description is misleading and the tank itself is useless and is milita grade
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1439	Posted - 2013.07.18 13:06:00 - [8] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Since this thread is getting a restart, I'll just get my comments in in brief. 1. Shield regen needs to go up, at least triple the current rate, if not more for Gunloggis and Falchions. 2. Shield resistances need to get buffed, Active hardeners need double the active time, so a 30s active with a 30 cooldown at least. This allows for a much more survivable shield tank. 3. Possibly reduce the PG usage of heavy shield extenders, the amount would have to be played with though. This is just to help equalize the eHP of shield and armor tanks. 4. Shield tanks need a MASSIVE increase in acceleration, and a slight bump in top speed. They don't have to be as fast as armor tanks on account of the Gallente racial traits, but the do need to get up and go much faster, be more nimble and have the ability to get to certain places that armor tanks cannot without nitrous. 5. Enforcers need a complete rework, because as they are now they offer almost no benefit over the STD variants we have now. Vayus are particularly bad, because they don't have enough CPU to fill that additional high slot, but the Falchion is also pretty crap when you consider that it can't even get away from anything, and the acceleration is so poor that playing peek-a-boom is almost a no go. 6. Collision damage changes need to extend to tanks as well, with the current model for LAV's to kill being slightly toned down and given to tanks. There is no excuse for someone to be pushed in front or behind of my tank. This has been imrpoved since Uprising came out, but still needs some tweaks. 7. Render distance/Invisible Swarms and Swarm launcher users, disappearing turrets/tanks/ etc. This needs some attention due to the obvious problem of having things disappear when you are shooting at them, or being shot at by them. It is extremely frustrating and adds needless difficulty to the infantry v tank balance. I'll add more later, but that is a good starting point. 1. Shield extenders need to increase the passive regen as it does in EVE 2. Already said it 3. Said that skills need to reduce what the mod uses more of, so with plates/extenders because they are heavy in PG the skill reduces PG by 3% a level or whatever it is, most skills save CPU on heavy PG mods and overall you save 3CPU which is useless 4. Said that i think, general no plates and less armor yet base stats show mad is faster than gun with empty hull yet has more armor, shield does acc faster in general and move slightly quicker when turning but up at top speed it loses out and overall mad seems quicker and can catch upto shield quite easily 5. Said that, take out rework or replace 6. Said that i think 7. Currently its due to optimization but its a big problem in general as you cnnot see whats hitting you
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1439	Posted - 2013.07.18 16:50:00 - [9] - Quote Poplo Furuya wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Poplo Furuya wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Soldiersaint wrote: the enforcer is meant for ranged combat.....READ THE DESCRIPTION.....its not meant to get up close.... lol he thinks blasters and lolmissiles are long range Okay mr infantry man you can go and play with the other children now It doesn't matter what end of an argument you're on, whether you're right or whether you're wrong, a mixture of condescension coupled with a lack or proper explanation is not going to win over or convince anyone. It's stuff like this that weakens the case for vehicles. If 'vehicle user' becomes synonymous with 'condescending prick' in people's minds... yeah. Not helpful. As for the blasters and missiles, blasters are short range and bleed damage efficiency fast, with stabilised blasters sacrificing short range punch for a bit more range. Missiles are contingent on direct hits but their travel time makes moving targets that aren't 100% predictable an unlikely prospect past medium range. Accelerated missiles are slightly better about this but it's still an issue. They're effective long range so long as the target's stationary but really they're only reliable at shorter ranges. Someone skilled at aiming based on tracking and prediction could perhaps make them workable at mid but that's about it. They are not long range end of and lolmissiles are just that The description is misleading and the tank itself is useless and is milita grade The main point was about attitude and diplomacy but moving on. Most players have never been in a HAV and used any kind of large turret... or even any of the small turrets aside from MLT Blasters/Missiles. Don't mistakenly assume most people know what's what on the vehicle side of things. They don't. If you want most people to understand the issues with vehicles you've got to elaborate, make it clear. And really, "mr infantryman, go back and play with the other children now"? Please tell me you don't work in a PR job. You even stated that you didn't want this to be a **-flinging thread so making a fine start on that front. Dont really care Orginal thread got moved to F&R where i already put one over ther, i just copy and pasted this back to general discussions and the last one turned out ** because of stupid ppl so meh

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