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Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
434
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Posted - 2013.07.17 23:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
have said before...
think in terms of RL military (shut up, i know it's a game)
... it's built around everyone being able to use a standard weapon (AK-47, M16, w/e). this is your baseline.
... everything else in the military's inventory is specialized and brings certain advantages/disadvantages compared to that baseline. so in a sense, the predominance of ARs makes some sort of sense - everyone is playing average joe infantry guy because it's what they are able to play best.
having said baseline doesn't necessarily hurt anything in this game.
diversity? is not a goal in itself. the goal is to make sure that specializing has proper advantages as well as disadvantages and then everyone can play within their playstyle. long range, close range, or mid range ... using a specialized weapon to leverage its advantages and compensate for disadvantages requires additional time commitment, tactical awareness, ... whatever. not even sure what my point was now.
in conclusion: AR's fine, other weapons are ok. except for CFLP. nerf that ****. |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
434
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Promethius Franklin wrote:Cosgar wrote:What weaknesses does the AR have compared to other weapons? Which weapon?
- shotgun can OHKO with a wider reticle at close range.
- sniper rifle, forge gun, laser rifle have obvious range advantage.
- CFLP and mass drivers do increased damage to armor
- nova knives can OHKO without giving opponent chance to react.
- scrambler rifle offers ability to charge for high alpha headshots.
- mass drivers are better at assist farming / lolareadenial |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
436
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:Promethius Franklin wrote:Cosgar wrote:What weaknesses does the AR have compared to other weapons? Which weapon? - shotgun can OHKO with a wider reticle at close range. - sniper rifle, forge gun, laser rifle have obvious range advantage. - CFLP and mass drivers do increased damage to armor - nova knives can OHKO without giving opponent chance to react. - scrambler rifle offers ability to charge for high alpha headshots. - mass drivers are better at assist farming / lolareadenial All those weapons suck, even in their own niches, the AR might not be the best at anything, but it certainly is second best at everything, and definitely not a true "jack of all trades, master of none" weapon, it simply isn't average enough for that. Oh, but this fine because they don't have the range of snipers and can't OHKO  
sniper rifles, forge guns, shotguns and... CFLP suck?  |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
436
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:have said before...
think in terms of RL military (shut up, i know it's a game)
... it's built around everyone being able to use a standard weapon (AK-47, M16, w/e). this is your baseline.
... everything else in the military's inventory is specialized and brings certain advantages/disadvantages compared to that baseline. so in a sense, the predominance of ARs makes some sort of sense - everyone is playing average joe infantry guy because it's what they are able to play best.
having said baseline doesn't necessarily hurt anything in this game.
diversity? is not a goal in itself. the goal is to make sure that specializing has proper advantages as well as disadvantages and then everyone can play within their playstyle. long range, close range, or mid range ... using a specialized weapon to leverage its advantages and compensate for disadvantages requires additional time commitment, tactical awareness, ... whatever. not even sure what my point was now.
in conclusion: AR's fine, other weapons are ok. except for CFLP. nerf that ****. This argument, IMHO doesn't really hold water though. Unlike the real military forces of the world, CCP designs each and every weapon to be a part of the game. It takes time to design them. They wouldn't spend this time if they weren't meant to be useful.
It's sort of my point. Useful does not have to mean abundant. Niche does not mean useless. Popular does not mean OP. And rarely seen can sometimes only mean people haven't explored all of the options yet. Forge guns and drop uplinks (modules being relevant to tangential discussion as well) have shown their true worth with the advent of PC, for example. |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
436
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:
Okay, okay, snipers and FGS are fine, Shotguns, had their range shortened too much, but are still "usable", CFLP have a confirmed nerf hammer coming in.
And like the shotgun, ARs would still be usable IF they had a few nerfs, but they won't get nerfed.
TAC AR was nerfed, appropriately, and is still quite fun to use. 
Oh and I forgot ... in CQC or against armor an SMG is boss compared to the AR; the ADS on an SMG has similar lack of kick/dispersion as well. It's just that few have skilled into this weapon to a high enough level or been cognizant of shield/armor resistances to the point that they will actively switch to the SMG for its bonuses.
AR is the default on the starter suits, it's arguably the most noob friendly because it is intuitive, and it's going to be the 'weapon of the masses' "For-Ev-Er" ... but my point is that this fact isn't necessarily detrimental since the other weapons are more effective than the AR in various niches or specialized roles. |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
436
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:have said before...
think in terms of RL military (shut up, i know it's a game)
... it's built around everyone being able to use a standard weapon (AK-47, M16, w/e). this is your baseline.
... everything else in the military's inventory is specialized and brings certain advantages/disadvantages compared to that baseline. so in a sense, the predominance of ARs makes some sort of sense - everyone is playing average joe infantry guy because it's what they are able to play best.
having said baseline doesn't necessarily hurt anything in this game.
diversity? is not a goal in itself. the goal is to make sure that specializing has proper advantages as well as disadvantages and then everyone can play within their playstyle. long range, close range, or mid range ... using a specialized weapon to leverage its advantages and compensate for disadvantages requires additional time commitment, tactical awareness, ... whatever. not even sure what my point was now.
in conclusion: AR's fine, other weapons are ok. except for CFLP. nerf that ****. This argument, IMHO doesn't really hold water though. Unlike the real military forces of the world, CCP designs each and every weapon to be a part of the game. It takes time to design them. They wouldn't spend this time if they weren't meant to be useful. It's sort of my point. Useful does not have to mean abundant. Niche does not mean useless. Popular does not mean OP. And rarely seen can sometimes only mean people haven't explored all of the options yet. Forge guns and drop uplinks (modules being relevant to tangential discussion as well) have shown their true worth with the advent of PC, for example. Well, I would say that this is partially true. Having said that though, ARs and SRs together amount to more kills than all 10 other weapons combined. Of those two, ARs and Sniper Rifles, ARs are twice more popular than Sniper Rifles. To me, this is not good diversity. It makes the game AR 514. It means there's no point in using the other weapons at all really because the times they're useful are so far and between the overwhelmingly useful AR that they have become irrelevant. Diversity isn't being represented. I find it a problem. Do you?
Definitions of diversity aside (acceptable levels being subjective/opinion-based so w/e), I do not find a problem with a majority of people using ARs, no, and there's not much else for either side to add to this argument at this point lol.
[EDIT TO AVOID SPAMMING: Your point "It means there's no point in using the other weapons at all really because the times they're useful are so far and between the overwhelmingly useful AR that they have become irrelevant" is somewhat mistaken; the data only indicates that ARs are predominant on the battlefield not that using a non-AR weapon will rarely be useful. (i.e. 100 people using ARs get 10 kills each for 1000 kills. 2 guys using shotgun effectively get 20 kills each...) |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
436
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sorry. Thought I had answered it. Also snuck a stealth edit in for you |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
437
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 23:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:
Oh and I forgot ... in CQC or against armor an SMG is boss compared to the AR
While the SMG does beat AR when it comes to armor, the AR has an even bigger advantage when up against shields. These aren't real numbers, it's just an example. An AR does 200 dmg to armor, a SMG does 250 That's a 50 point difference in favor of SMGs Now shields, an AR does 300 to shields, a SMG does 200 That's a 100 point differnce in favor of ARs I'd use real numbers but don't feel like logging in Of course, there are those would claim it's a side-arm and should be inferior, so we'll just have to wait for the combat rifle.
Real numbers:
AR +10% shields -10% armor
SMG +10% armor... -5% shields |
Rogatien Merc
Red Star.
EoN.
439
|
Posted - 2013.07.18 02:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sloth9230 wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:Sloth9230 wrote:Rogatien Merc wrote:
Oh and I forgot ... in CQC or against armor an SMG is boss compared to the AR
While the SMG does beat AR when it comes to armor, the AR has an even bigger advantage when up against shields. These aren't real numbers, it's just an example. An AR does 200 dmg to armor, a SMG does 250 That's a 50 point difference in favor of SMGs Now shields, an AR does 300 to shields, a SMG does 200 That's a 100 point differnce in favor of ARs I'd use real numbers but don't feel like logging in Of course, there are those would claim it's a side-arm and should be inferior, so we'll just have to wait for the combat rifle. Real numbers: AR +10% shields -10% armor SMG +10% armor... -5% shields Including their RoF and dmg per shot
Ok.
Duv AR: 37.4 dmg/rnd, 750 rnds/min, 60shots in a mag // 467.5 dps (420.75 armor / 514.25 shield)
SixKin SMG: 25.3 dmg/rnd, 1000 rnds/min, 80shots in a mag // 421.7 dps (463.87 armor / 379.53 shield)
... Duvolle enjoys a 10.9% advantage in the base dps department (35.5% advantage on shields) over the SMG as well as advantage in range. The SMG has a 10.2% advantage against armor, as well as the advantage in fitting requirements, reload speed, and dual wield potential. With maxed Min Assault bonus, it will also have significantly more damage per clip with no comparable advantage to AR; however the AR's significant advantage at range and shield makes it preferable for non CQC applications...
... but it's decent, as well as the more deadly option paired with flux grenades.
My point just being that other weapons are certainly viable if you take the effort to create the situations in which they excel. |
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