DUST Search - ARs, and why you have a problem with them.

Buster Friently wrote:

Alena Ventrallis wrote:

I see a lot of complaining about AR's being overused, and many jokes about this game being AR 514 and the like. So I'm going to explain why ARs are so used by the game.

First, familiarity. All of the suits use the AR as the base suit new characters get. A lot of noobs, not understanding how skillpoints work, will invest in upgrading this AR so they can be more effective. By the time they learn how sp works, they're already invested in the AR decently, so why let that skill go to waste? Thus, they continue using it.

Second, versatility. Let's look at the variants of the AR. the AR variants cover the spectrum from close with the stock AR to mid range with the TAR. Now, let's look at map sizes. I will bring up as an example a skirmish battle map, since they are the largest currently available. They have a dash to the closest objective of about 200-300m with the contested (middle of the battlefield) objectives usually within 200m beyond that. Especially with the urban environments these objectives, guess what weapon can cover the vast majority of engagement ranges? Now not every AR can cover all these ranges at once. But the vast majority of engagement ranges can be covered by the AR or one of its variants.

Third, is lack of variation. In the close to mid range category, the AR has almost no competitors. Only approximately half of Dust content has even been released, and when it comes to the AR, the only other competition it could have is the assault scrambler rifle. The scrambler rifle does have a similar range, more mid than close, but similar range, but it requires lvl 4 in scrambler rifles to unlock. The base scrambler rifle is a single shot, mid range weapon, which is what most new players think is the only type of scrambler rifle. Especially at the typical engagement range outlined in the second reason, and partly because of the first reason, they never see this variant, which for some would actually be more in their playstyle.

Lastly (of reasons I can think of before I post this) is reputation. Let's think like a FOTM player (or continue thinking normally, if that's your thing.) With all the posts about this being AR 514, and how OP ARs are, and how everybody is using them, what do you think I want to spec into in order to have the best k/d ratio?

Now, what does this mean? The problem is not with the AR, one cannot blame the knife for being OP at cutting things, which is it's job. The same is true of the AR. It is a fairly (with exception) balanced weapon, the problem lies within the maps, the starter fits, and the lack of other options. As to the first one, I believe opening up the maps will go a long way to alleviating this problem (this would need to be done carefully to avoid making the game Sprint 514, but that's another topic) because it would make a larger base of weaponry more viable depending on your location on the map. In the buildings, the AR would still be useful. But out on the larger plains areas, the sniper and AV would reign supreme over the AR. As well, giving the player a wider variety of options wouldn't mean that the AR family would be used less, but at least there would be variety in the type of AR utilized. I think seeing different weapon skins would go a long way to assuaging people's feeling of AR 514, even if subconsciously. Tying into this, once all the races have an AR, giving the starter class a weapon based on their race would give players a wider range of weaponry to test out, and more importantly, different weapons to skill into, adding some variety to the game. Lastly, if these changes were implemented, then the reputation of the AR being king over all comers would die down, and FOTM players would move on to something else (likely the Flaylock, if CCP doesn't fix it soon tm. (Don't know how to do the trademark symbol. Ugh

)

Now I'm not saying that all ARs are all balanced perfectly. The TAR definitely is/was OP with a modded controller. However, ARs as a whole are by and large solidly made. It just so happens that the situation where the shine the most is the most common situation encountered by a large margin.

Forgive me for the wall of text, and maybe CCP will implement some of the suggestions mentioned in this post.

This accounts for only so much overuse. Not the 10x more kills with the AR than Scrambler Rifle.

Please see the real data here:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678

There is an actual problem with the AR being OP, and more importantly with every weapon, no matter light, sidearm or heavy, that approaches the AR getting nerfed.

The AR is supposed to be a generalist weapon, but not the best at anything. The problem is that it's so good at nearly everything, that there's no reason to use any other weapon. Whenever a weapon comes along that can dominate in it's niche, it is summarily nerfed, even though it's a niche weapon.

More importantly, the AR, regardless of reason, is so overused that the other weapons, are pretty much irrelevant.

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Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 12	Posted - 2013.07.17 17:05:00 - [1] - Quote I see a lot of complaining about AR's being overused, and many jokes about this game being AR 514 and the like. So I'm going to explain why ARs are so used by the game. First, familiarity. All of the suits use the AR as the base suit new characters get. A lot of noobs, not understanding how skillpoints work, will invest in upgrading this AR so they can be more effective. By the time they learn how sp works, they're already invested in the AR decently, so why let that skill go to waste? Thus, they continue using it. Second, versatility. Let's look at the variants of the AR. the AR variants cover the spectrum from close with the stock AR to mid range with the TAR. Now, let's look at map sizes. I will bring up as an example a skirmish battle map, since they are the largest currently available. They have a dash to the closest objective of about 200-300m with the contested (middle of the battlefield) objectives usually within 200m beyond that. Especially with the urban environments these objectives, guess what weapon can cover the vast majority of engagement ranges? Now not every AR can cover all these ranges at once. But the vast majority of engagement ranges can be covered by the AR or one of its variants. Third, is lack of variation. In the close to mid range category, the AR has almost no competitors. Only approximately half of Dust content has even been released, and when it comes to the AR, the only other competition it could have is the assault scrambler rifle. The scrambler rifle does have a similar range, more mid than close, but similar range, but it requires lvl 4 in scrambler rifles to unlock. The base scrambler rifle is a single shot, mid range weapon, which is what most new players think is the only type of scrambler rifle. Especially at the typical engagement range outlined in the second reason, and partly because of the first reason, they never see this variant, which for some would actually be more in their playstyle. Lastly (of reasons I can think of before I post this) is reputation. Let's think like a FOTM player (or continue thinking normally, if that's your thing.) With all the posts about this being AR 514, and how OP ARs are, and how everybody is using them, what do you think I want to spec into in order to have the best k/d ratio? Now, what does this mean? The problem is not with the AR, one cannot blame the knife for being OP at cutting things, which is it's job. The same is true of the AR. It is a fairly (with exception) balanced weapon, the problem lies within the maps, the starter fits, and the lack of other options. As to the first one, I believe opening up the maps will go a long way to alleviating this problem (this would need to be done carefully to avoid making the game Sprint 514, but that's another topic) because it would make a larger base of weaponry more viable depending on your location on the map. In the buildings, the AR would still be useful. But out on the larger plains areas, the sniper and AV would reign supreme over the AR. As well, giving the player a wider variety of options wouldn't mean that the AR family would be used less, but at least there would be variety in the type of AR utilized. I think seeing different weapon skins would go a long way to assuaging people's feeling of AR 514, even if subconsciously. Tying into this, once all the races have an AR, giving the starter class a weapon based on their race would give players a wider range of weaponry to test out, and more importantly, different weapons to skill into, adding some variety to the game. Lastly, if these changes were implemented, then the reputation of the AR being king over all comers would die down, and FOTM players would move on to something else (likely the Flaylock, if CCP doesn't fix it soon tm. (Don't know how to do the trademark symbol. ) Now I'm not saying that all ARs are all balanced perfectly. The TAR definitely is/was OP with a modded controller. However, ARs as a whole are by and large solidly made. It just so happens that the situation where the shine the most is the most common situation encountered by a large margin. Forgive me for the wall of text, and maybe CCP will implement some of the suggestions mentioned in this post.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1172	Posted - 2013.07.17 17:09:00 - [2] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I see a lot of complaining about AR's being overused, and many jokes about this game being AR 514 and the like. So I'm going to explain why ARs are so used by the game. First, familiarity. All of the suits use the AR as the base suit new characters get. A lot of noobs, not understanding how skillpoints work, will invest in upgrading this AR so they can be more effective. By the time they learn how sp works, they're already invested in the AR decently, so why let that skill go to waste? Thus, they continue using it. Second, versatility. Let's look at the variants of the AR. the AR variants cover the spectrum from close with the stock AR to mid range with the TAR. Now, let's look at map sizes. I will bring up as an example a skirmish battle map, since they are the largest currently available. They have a dash to the closest objective of about 200-300m with the contested (middle of the battlefield) objectives usually within 200m beyond that. Especially with the urban environments these objectives, guess what weapon can cover the vast majority of engagement ranges? Now not every AR can cover all these ranges at once. But the vast majority of engagement ranges can be covered by the AR or one of its variants. Third, is lack of variation. In the close to mid range category, the AR has almost no competitors. Only approximately half of Dust content has even been released, and when it comes to the AR, the only other competition it could have is the assault scrambler rifle. The scrambler rifle does have a similar range, more mid than close, but similar range, but it requires lvl 4 in scrambler rifles to unlock. The base scrambler rifle is a single shot, mid range weapon, which is what most new players think is the only type of scrambler rifle. Especially at the typical engagement range outlined in the second reason, and partly because of the first reason, they never see this variant, which for some would actually be more in their playstyle. Lastly (of reasons I can think of before I post this) is reputation. Let's think like a FOTM player (or continue thinking normally, if that's your thing.) With all the posts about this being AR 514, and how OP ARs are, and how everybody is using them, what do you think I want to spec into in order to have the best k/d ratio? Now, what does this mean? The problem is not with the AR, one cannot blame the knife for being OP at cutting things, which is it's job. The same is true of the AR. It is a fairly (with exception) balanced weapon, the problem lies within the maps, the starter fits, and the lack of other options. As to the first one, I believe opening up the maps will go a long way to alleviating this problem (this would need to be done carefully to avoid making the game Sprint 514, but that's another topic) because it would make a larger base of weaponry more viable depending on your location on the map. In the buildings, the AR would still be useful. But out on the larger plains areas, the sniper and AV would reign supreme over the AR. As well, giving the player a wider variety of options wouldn't mean that the AR family would be used less, but at least there would be variety in the type of AR utilized. I think seeing different weapon skins would go a long way to assuaging people's feeling of AR 514, even if subconsciously. Tying into this, once all the races have an AR, giving the starter class a weapon based on their race would give players a wider range of weaponry to test out, and more importantly, different weapons to skill into, adding some variety to the game. Lastly, if these changes were implemented, then the reputation of the AR being king over all comers would die down, and FOTM players would move on to something else (likely the Flaylock, if CCP doesn't fix it soon tm. (Don't know how to do the trademark symbol. ) Now I'm not saying that all ARs are all balanced perfectly. The TAR definitely is/was OP with a modded controller. However, ARs as a whole are by and large solidly made. It just so happens that the situation where the shine the most is the most common situation encountered by a large margin. Forgive me for the wall of text, and maybe CCP will implement some of the suggestions mentioned in this post. This accounts for only so much overuse. Not the 10x more kills with the AR than Scrambler Rifle. Please see the real data here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 There is an actual problem with the AR being OP, and more importantly with every weapon, no matter light, sidearm or heavy, that approaches the AR getting nerfed. The AR is supposed to be a generalist weapon, but not the best at anything. The problem is that it's so good at nearly everything, that there's no reason to use any other weapon. Whenever a weapon comes along that can dominate in it's niche, it is summarily nerfed, even though it's a niche weapon. More importantly, the AR, regardless of reason, is so overused that the other weapons, are pretty much irrelevant.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp 460	Posted - 2013.07.17 17:34:00 - [3] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: There is an actual problem with the AR being OP, and more importantly with every weapon, no matter light, sidearm or heavy, that approaches the AR getting nerfed. The AR is supposed to be a generalist weapon, but not the best at anything. The problem is that it's so good at nearly everything, that there's no reason to use any other weapon. Whenever a weapon comes along that can dominate in it's niche, it is summarily nerfed, even though it's a niche weapon. More importantly, the AR, regardless of reason, is so overused that the other weapons, are pretty much irrelevant. Real talk bro!
Nemo Bluntz TeamPlayers EoN. 162	Posted - 2013.07.17 19:58:00 - [4] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: [quote=Alena Ventrallis]This accounts for only so much overuse. Not the 10x more kills with the AR than Scrambler Rifle. Please see the real data here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 I can probably guarantee that there are 10x more assault rifle users than scrambler rifle users.
Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 260	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:51:00 - [5] - Quote as I snipe in cover, I get taken out by AR at 50-60m in 2 seconds. Can't even get a shot out. The second he looks at me, points, shoot, dead. Right on
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 14	Posted - 2013.07.17 20:58:00 - [6] - Quote Quote: This accounts for only so much overuse. Not the 10x more kills with the AR than Scrambler Rifle. Please see the real data here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 There is an actual problem with the AR being OP, and more importantly with every weapon, no matter light, sidearm or heavy, that approaches the AR getting nerfed. The AR is supposed to be a generalist weapon, but not the best at anything. The problem is that it's so good at nearly everything, that there's no reason to use any other weapon. Whenever a weapon comes along that can dominate in it's niche, it is summarily nerfed, even though it's a niche weapon. More importantly, the AR, regardless of reason, is so overused that the other weapons, are pretty much irrelevant. Yes, it does. This data only shows that ARs get more kills over 4 games (which is a terribly small pool to raw conclusions from) But it proves my original thesis. ARs get more kills because of the reasons outlined above. As well, Quote: as I snipe in cover, I get taken out by AR at 50-60m in 2 seconds. Can't even get a shot out. The second he looks at me, points, shoot, dead. Right on Again, my point is made. You are in the effective range of the AR. It is going to win. If you were say, 100-150m away and he killed you, then that definitely should be addressed (although I made a post about weapon ranges getting buffed, to include the AR) but within 50-60m, That is where the AR is the superior weapon.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1178	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:02:00 - [7] - Quote Nemo Bluntz wrote: Buster Friently wrote: [quote=Alena Ventrallis]This accounts for only so much overuse. Not the 10x more kills with the AR than Scrambler Rifle. Please see the real data here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 I can probably guarantee that there are 10x more assault rifle users than scrambler rifle users. Of course. That's part of my point. I think there's a real reason that so many people use the AR above and beyond it's comfortable. I think this overuse is a problem, and I think it's driving diversity, and players, away from the game.
Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 260	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:02:00 - [8] - Quote That's true, I can see them clearly at that range though lol.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 15	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:09:00 - [9] - Quote Let me be clear on this. I am not arguing whether ARs are OP or not. The TAR is indeed OP, as an example. I'm not saying they are balanced. What I'm saying is that the reason you see so many ARs is that they are the most effective weapon given the maps and situations a Dust player will find himself in on average. If there was a lot of wide open fields (look at the red zone areas before you spawn) then you would expect to see a lot of snipers. If there was a map that was nothing but a large urban area (now THAT would be an awesome battle! Imagine doing room clearings to get to objectives.) you would expect people to have a lot of shotguns. Right now, ARs can cover a good majority of the situations you will find yourself in. Consequently, a lot of people will use them. It's not so much OP as it is feasibility. If the changes I mentioned in my original post were implemented, I'm confident that AR use would even out somewhat.
Niuvo The Phoenix Federation 260	Posted - 2013.07.17 21:15:00 - [10] - Quote I seriously don't mind the overuse, I clearly wanted to use something else, I'm sure other people thought the same. I'm skilled in knives, smgs and snipers. I like them with their flaws, I take out people with smgs all the time! No complaints from me on the smg. no sir.

Cosgar ParagonX 2722	Posted - 2013.07.17 22:26:00 - [11] - Quote Despite what people may think, I actually don't have a personal vendetta against the AR. My issues lie with the elitism that surrounds the weapon. There are so many AR users that want the weapon to be the absolute best in all situations when it's meant to be the jack of all trades, master of none. Instead, we have a weapon that until recently made everything else a novelty by comparison because people either want Dust 514 to be a F2P CoD, or don't understand simple terms like balance and counter play. I'm fine with the Plasma Rifle (or any rifle) being the most used weapon on the field, but other weapons (and vehicles) need to be able to excel at their speciality, even of some are meant to be a hard counter to the AR or if the AR has shortcomings, preventing it from being the only option instead of just an option.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 1184	Posted - 2013.07.18 00:30:00 - [12] - Quote I want the game to have viable variety. Currently, it does not.
Jade Hasegawa Intrepidus XI EoN. 6	Posted - 2013.07.18 20:53:00 - [13] - Quote I am using the AR atm but I tried the scrambler rfile today, took a bit of getting used to but its fun. Think I am going to spec into that too
Jotun Izalaru Goonfeet Top Men. 8	Posted - 2013.07.18 21:26:00 - [14] - Quote If your reasoning for AR use is accurate, then the problem stems from the map design and not the gun. If almost every gunfight takes place in that AR effective range then it means other weapon users don't have enough opportunity to fight in their element. I think the point of an AR should be to never be "out" of their element but never have a clear advantage either. Instead, two thirds of the time they have a clear advantage because everything happens in that ideal AR range. If it's too far, it's easy to get away, if it's too close, backpedalling gets you out of CQC against everything that isn't an HMG.
Dynnen Vvardenfell 187. League of Infamy 19	Posted - 2013.07.18 21:48:00 - [15] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I see a lot of complaining about AR's being overused, and many jokes about this game being AR 514 and the like. So I'm going to explain why ARs are so used by the game. First, familiarity. All of the suits use the AR as the base suit new characters get. A lot of noobs, not understanding how skillpoints work, will invest in upgrading this AR so they can be more effective. By the time they learn how sp works, they're already invested in the AR decently, so why let that skill go to waste? Thus, they continue using it. Second, versatility. Let's look at the variants of the AR. the AR variants cover the spectrum from close with the stock AR to mid range with the TAR. Now, let's look at map sizes. I will bring up as an example a skirmish battle map, since they are the largest currently available. They have a dash to the closest objective of about 200-300m with the contested (middle of the battlefield) objectives usually within 200m beyond that. Especially with the urban environments these objectives, guess what weapon can cover the vast majority of engagement ranges? Now not every AR can cover all these ranges at once. But the vast majority of engagement ranges can be covered by the AR or one of its variants. Third, is lack of variation. In the close to mid range category, the AR has almost no competitors. Only approximately half of Dust content has even been released, and when it comes to the AR, the only other competition it could have is the assault scrambler rifle. The scrambler rifle does have a similar range, more mid than close, but similar range, but it requires lvl 4 in scrambler rifles to unlock. The base scrambler rifle is a single shot, mid range weapon, which is what most new players think is the only type of scrambler rifle. Especially at the typical engagement range outlined in the second reason, and partly because of the first reason, they never see this variant, which for some would actually be more in their playstyle. Lastly (of reasons I can think of before I post this) is reputation. Let's think like a FOTM player (or continue thinking normally, if that's your thing.) With all the posts about this being AR 514, and how OP ARs are, and how everybody is using them, what do you think I want to spec into in order to have the best k/d ratio? Now, what does this mean? The problem is not with the AR, one cannot blame the knife for being OP at cutting things, which is it's job. The same is true of the AR. It is a fairly (with exception) balanced weapon, the problem lies within the maps, the starter fits, and the lack of other options. As to the first one, I believe opening up the maps will go a long way to alleviating this problem (this would need to be done carefully to avoid making the game Sprint 514, but that's another topic) because it would make a larger base of weaponry more viable depending on your location on the map. In the buildings, the AR would still be useful. But out on the larger plains areas, the sniper and AV would reign supreme over the AR. As well, giving the player a wider variety of options wouldn't mean that the AR family would be used less, but at least there would be variety in the type of AR utilized. I think seeing different weapon skins would go a long way to assuaging people's feeling of AR 514, even if subconsciously. Tying into this, once all the races have an AR, giving the starter class a weapon based on their race would give players a wider range of weaponry to test out, and more importantly, different weapons to skill into, adding some variety to the game. Lastly, if these changes were implemented, then the reputation of the AR being king over all comers would die down, and FOTM players would move on to something else (likely the Flaylock, if CCP doesn't fix it soon tm. (Don't know how to do the trademark symbol. ) Now I'm not saying that all ARs are all balanced perfectly. The TAR definitely is/was OP with a modded controller. However, ARs as a whole are by and large solidly made. It just so happens that the situation where the shine the most is the most common situation encountered by a large margin. Forgive me for the wall of text, and maybe CCP will implement some of the suggestions mentioned in this post. This accounts for only so much overuse. Not the 10x more kills with the AR than Scrambler Rifle. Please see the real data here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=92678 There is an actual problem with the AR being OP, and more importantly with every weapon, no matter light, sidearm or heavy, that approaches the AR getting nerfed. The AR is supposed to be a generalist weapon, but not the best at anything. The problem is that it's so good at nearly everything, that there's no reason to use any other weapon. Whenever a weapon comes along that can dominate in it's niche, it is summarily nerfed, even though it's a niche weapon. More importantly, the AR, regardless of reason, is so overused that the other weapons, are pretty much irrelevant. Need moar data! Also I have a few friends that shred everyone with assault scramblers. They got great gun-game and know how to use it =P
Vell0cet Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 63	Posted - 2013.07.18 22:34:00 - [16] - Quote CCP doesn't need to nerf AR's, they need to fix the counters to them. When they nerfed LR's into oblivion, they paved the way for AR dominance. CCP needs to make LR's hit out ot 130m (with a maxed Laser Rifle Sharpshooter skill), with an inverted optimal/effective/absolute range, so if you're within the AR's optimal, your LR is doing greatly reduced damage, and if you're fighting in the LR's optimal, then the AR's doing greatly reduced damage. Up close (within 5 meters) the Shotgun should beat the AR 8/10 times (all else being equal), I'm not sure how they can tweak the shotgun though as I don't play it. If there are effective counters, then you'll see a more even distribution of kills and much more balance.
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Band Dust Mercenaries Immortals of War 2427	Posted - 2013.07.18 23:09:00 - [17] - Quote And yet AR users still ***** when any weapon is better than them at anything- usually. The one exception is that they haven't yet realized that SMGs>ARs in cqc fights. Btw- we need militia versions of every weapon, along with racial weapons in starter fits.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 262	Posted - 2013.07.18 23:45:00 - [18] - Quote Niche weapons have gotten nerfed for performing well in their niche because of the incessant QQ of AR Elitists. If not, that's certainly the way it's been made to appear. As for opening up more of the maps, it's a great idea but will also need the team counts expanded to 24 vs 24. IMO, it's also kind of stupid to have a squad size of six but a team count of 16 vs 16.


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