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Serious Discussion on Balancing Scouts

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AfroSunshineY Consequence Clan Choinnich 14	Posted - 2013.07.16 19:52:00 - [1] - Quote Dear fellow Scouts, We live life on Hard Mode and that's the way most of us like it. There is something oddly attractive about flanking the enemy and hitting them where it hurts (before someone sneezes in your direction and gets rid of all your shield and half of your armor). I also love having the ability to bob and weave my way towards objectives that the enemy has clearly left unattended. Where I often run into trouble is in trying to get involved in direct combat with assault or heavies. Problems with hit detection on the shotgun (which is a real problem) and the limited survivability of the suit mean that a single mistake or missed shot on my part or on the part of the game itself means instant death. Here are my views on the weakness of he suit: -the disparity between the speed of the scout suit and other (read: assault/Logi) suits is not enough to offset the decreased survivability of the suit --- this just seems like objective fact, especially when you take into account that those suits have more slots than even the prototype scout suits do and can increase their speeds to comparable levels. They'll never be as fast as a scout, but they never really need to be - they just need to be close enough in speed that their excess offensive/defensive capabilities can take over. I understand that this is a well worn argument but it bears repeating -low PG/CPU means scouts have to compromise the modules/equipment they use, even with their limited available slots. For a scout to be worth his salt, it really is necessary to have PG/CPU skills as close to maxed as possible. This problem isn't unique to scouts of course. Every class has this concern - but because we start out with less PG/CPU and those skills seem to work on a percentage system, the payout for other classes of those skills is far greater than for the scout suit. Think of it this way: I envision the scout suit as mainly a forward leading suit. That is, the scout is not the leader of an assault (assault suits are), but they can be the ones that infiltrate enemy positions unseen, drop a drop uplink and set up the team to take a heavily guarded position (in other words they would "Scout" the position and enable others to take it). Conversely, if a position is unguarded, they should be able to quickly hack the position with some modicum of stealth in order to impact the outcome of the game. The problem with this vision of the scout as it relates to PG/CPU is that in order to fulfill any of these roles a scout must give up being able to defend him/herself or the ability to run at maximum speed, or the endurance needed for long distance sprints - thus making the role they're trying to fulfill impossible to fulfill effectively. It becomes much more simple to role in a minnie or cal logi suit with enough PG/CPU/Equipment slots to fulfill these roles - thus limiting the usability of the scout in the first place My Suggestions to Possible Solutions: -Increase PG/CPU of the Scout Suit The liabilities of the suit should also be balanced by some benefits. One possibility is increasing our fitting capabilities such that we won't also be the class that it is most difficult to make an appropriate fit for. -More equipment slots (in conjunction with the above) We are the weakest direct combat class but we should be able to make up for that with stealth. Hiding, laying remote explosives, setting up traps and teammates for extended assaults, all while remaining relatively unseen. It makes no sense that the scout (as it stands right now) is basically a watered down assault suit with less slots, equipment and overall capability all with the meager benefit of an additional .2m/s increase in movement speed (diff between Minnie medium and gallente light I Believe) The suit needs a real advantage that will appeal to a wider base of players than it does currently. -Actually Make Stealth/Profile Dampening or something of the sort work Again, the stated "advantage" of this suit is its increased mobility(which I've already established as minimal) but also increased stealth. Unfortunately I don't feel as though "stealth" means much in this game. If I'm spotted halfway across a map by an assault/logi with an AR I'm still dead most of the time. There has to be something mitigating the fact that once we're seen there is often no way to counterattack (especially if we're not close enough), unless we too have an AR, which is an ineffective "assassination" weapon (possible OHK or something close) unless coupled with damage modifiers in slots which, oh look, we don't have -Slight speed increase to base model of both suits, but especially the gallente scout - I've already established my reason for this but it bears repeating - if speed is to be an advantage, it should be a real advantage, not one that can be easily mitigated by the additional slots of medium suits -Slight increase to overall survivabilty, regeneration and or stamina There's a problem when a prototype scout doesn't have as much hp as a militia as a militia caldari medium. I don't know if it's just me but I sincerely feel as though the discrepancy in survivability is just too large and isn't mitigated by any other factors
AfroSunshineY Consequence Clan Choinnich 14	Posted - 2013.07.16 19:53:00 - [2] - Quote I'm just going to stop here because this thread is already too long and if it were me I probably wouldn't actually read most of it, but I will conclude by saying, I am of the opinion that scouts need a SLIGHT buff. Most scouts enjoy the challenge and the suggestions I put forth are just that - suggestions. Some combination of those suggestions, I feel, will finally carve out a niche for the suit, where it can say, "I am the best at this, and those other suits are just pretending". That's all I'm asking for. Most scouts don't want a win-button suit. I take pride in going 7 and 10, but knowing that my team won because I wasn't kill hoarding but actually trying to win the game even though winning the game has no real implications, which is another problem in and of itself. TL;DR -Scouts need a mild buff in some combination of speed, survivability, flexibility of fitting and stealth in order to be viable assets to a game, team or corp
HyperionsThunder Onslaught Initiative 19	Posted - 2013.07.16 19:58:00 - [3] - Quote I think I'd enjoy to see a buff to the scout's shield recharge speed. This would encourage poking at the enemy, and discourage charging straight on. I definitely agree about the config of the PG/CPU and the equipment slots. Obviously, CCP has an idea for how the scout should be played, but I think that limits our creativity in the builds. Perhaps far (far far far) down the line, they might change the equipment slot configuration to allow more customization in dropsuits, in effect limiting our builds solely by the CPU/PG rather than by some predetermined configuration. If I want to run a scout with nothing else but 8 shield extenders and a shotty, I think I should be able to.
Razor Signal Wraith Company 41	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:06:00 - [4] - Quote I was just thinking about the PG/CPU issue; I'm not sure if the tool tips for the modules are accurate for Militia/Basic gear but they seem to be, well, the same for the most part. Should basic gear be improved upon? Basic has less PG/CPU, sure, but they share the same bonuses. Shouldn't we be getting more bang for the buck for the SPs?
Shattered Mirage The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo 2	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:08:00 - [5] - Quote You know that the hit-box increases as you go faster..... right? Ex. Standing 2% Walking 15% Running 39% Sprinting 57%
Daxxis KANNAH Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 201	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:22:00 - [6] - Quote OP - Gallente Scout can already exceed Minmatar Scout sprint speed and also run longer because there is the additional low slot which can be used for a Cardiac regulator. I would ammend post to just state an increase in base sprint speed. I also think that if they arent going to give light suits more slots with enough CPU/PG then they should boost CPU/PG so they can run practically proto everything. That could make the scout suit more effective but force the user to be more careful with their expensive fit. Anxiously waiting the update to see how CCP balanced the suits.
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 375	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:28:00 - [7] - Quote Razor Signal wrote: I was just thinking about the PG/CPU issue; I'm not sure if the tool tips for the modules are accurate for Militia/Basic gear but they seem to be, well, the same for the most part. Should basic gear be improved upon? Basic has less PG/CPU, sure, but they share the same bonuses. Shouldn't we be getting more bang for the buck for the SPs? The standard model when jumping from Militia to Basic Dropsuits is an increase in CPU/PG and an extra module slot on their secondary (a low for Caldari, a high for Gallente etc). Other base stats remain the same. The exceptions are MLT to STD heavy where base armour jumps from 304 to 405 and Caldari medium which goes from 15hp/s recharge to 25hp/s.
Poplo Furuya Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 375	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:41:00 - [8] - Quote As for possible modifications, extra CPU/PG couldn't hurt... or perhaps just a significant discount on the fitting costs of biotics. Scan radius should not be the base 10m. Reckon it ought to be hiked up to around 30m on Scouts, aiding them in flanking, reconnaissance and so forth. Also might give incentive to actually skill up and slot Scan Range enhancers if a 50% boost brings the range up to almost 45m. Having that kind of advance intel would be a game changer. Taking the far longer view it's likely that the two primary powers when it comes to ewar will be scouts and Minmatar Logis. Since vehicles aren't even using capacitor management yet, though, don't hold your breath waiting for that.
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Band Dust Mercenaries Immortals of War 2376	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:57:00 - [9] - Quote I'm a scout, and I think survivability only needs a slight buff. I'm assuming that scouts are meant for 1 of 2 jobs: A support subtype, meant for finding the enemy, placing uplinks, or hacking without being noticed A stealth fighter, that uses the element of surprise to make up for low health. Right now we have Gallente: specialized in finding the enemy Minmatar: specialized in CQC stealth fighting I'm just going to assume: Amarr: extra equipment slot and/or faster hacking speed (infiltrating to help the slower troops move in) Caldari: long-range stealth fighting (sniper)
Xero The Mishima Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 169	Posted - 2013.07.16 21:00:00 - [10] - Quote Scouts are fine as is. Play them in Chrome than you can cry.

Jason Punk DUST University Ivy League 156	Posted - 2013.07.16 21:00:00 - [11] - Quote Solid explanation, thanks. I've become increasingly aware of this since late chromosome and especially Uprising 1.0-.2 and full-heartedly agree. I also feel this (you're explanations) is the correct approach: Greater options/versatility > Nerf-Buff Solutions Both increased speed and greater equipment/cloaking module options could create a far more tactile and useful class in what we know as the Scout and quite possibly even more specialized roles such as an engineer, recon, or true "logistics" specialist. All very critical components to a future field of battle. It is such a great field for a support a role and I truly hope to see it grow to new heights than simply a stealthy guy with a shotgun. ^^
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3338	Posted - 2013.07.16 21:44:00 - [12] - Quote AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: -Actually Make Stealth/Profile Dampening or something of the sort work Again, the stated "advantage" of this suit is its increased mobility(which I've already established as minimal) but also increased stealth. Unfortunately I don't feel as though "stealth" means much in this game. If I'm spotted halfway across a map by an assault/logi with an AR I'm still dead most of the time. There has to be something mitigating the fact that once we're seen there is often no way to counterattack (especially if we're not close enough), unless we too have an AR, which is an ineffective "assassination" weapon (possible OHK or something close) unless coupled with damage modifiers in slots which, oh look, we don't have Stealth - AND its counterpoint of detection - should be the Scout's domain. The problem at present is that EVERY suit has such minimal scan radius that even with the Gallente bonus, it's meaningless to rely on anything but Active Scanners and visual identification. Everyone's Scan Radius is 10m, which means the Gallente Scout, when maxed, goes up to 15m (20-something with Long Range Scanning also maxed). Even when you stack modules, this is a basically meaningless range, particularly when there are frequent reports of players not seeing enemies who SHOULD be visible on our passive scanners until they're less than 5m behind you. Part of the problem is that there are bugs in the system that need work, but also Light Frame suits need a buff to Scan Radius. It doesn't need to be much. Even 12 or 13m for the Basic Light Frames and 15 - 17m for Scouts would be good. With passives, that means we'll be able to get a radius where using a Scout suit to actually scout for enemies will be viable. Maybe nerf the Scan Radius on the Heavy suits as well (not that they'd notice), because giving everything the same radius is just kind of silly.
AfroSunshineY Consequence Clan Choinnich 17	Posted - 2013.07.16 22:27:00 - [13] - Quote Daxxis KANNAH wrote: OP - Gallente Scout can already exceed Minmatar Scout sprint speed and also run longer because there is the additional low slot which can be used for a Cardiac regulator. I would ammend post to just state an increase in base sprint speed. I also think that if they arent going to give light suits more slots with enough CPU/PG then they should boost CPU/PG so they can run practically proto everything. That could make the scout suit more effective but force the user to be more careful with their expensive fit. Anxiously waiting the update to see how CCP balanced the suits. I'm aware of that - but it's not about speed really. The gallente scout can exceed the Minnie scout in speed only if all 4 low slots in a protosuit are dedicated to kinetic cat. Unfortunately, this means we only have one high slot available to do anything else with our fits. While MInnies can attain almost the same speed with 2 low slots and have 3 high slots for more protection or more damage. One other suggestion that I just completely forgot, but I think was implied was to decrease the discrepancy in total slots, especially at the prototype level. Again, I will pick on Logi's and say that it makes little sense for a Logi to have ~2x the number of total slots as a scout (ex. Cal Logi's 9 to Scout's total of 5). They should have more certainly, but maybe give the scout 6 total slots (I would say that the amarr Logi is probably one of the best balanced suits in the game though)
Django Quik R.I.f.t 982	Posted - 2013.07.16 22:43:00 - [14] - Quote AfroSunshineY Consequence wrote: Daxxis KANNAH wrote: OP - Gallente Scout can already exceed Minmatar Scout sprint speed and also run longer because there is the additional low slot which can be used for a Cardiac regulator. I would ammend post to just state an increase in base sprint speed. I also think that if they arent going to give light suits more slots with enough CPU/PG then they should boost CPU/PG so they can run practically proto everything. That could make the scout suit more effective but force the user to be more careful with their expensive fit. Anxiously waiting the update to see how CCP balanced the suits. I'm aware of that - but it's not about speed really. The gallente scout can exceed the Minnie scout in speed only if all 4 low slots in a protosuit are dedicated to kinetic cat. Unfortunately, this means we only have one high slot available to do anything else with our fits. While MInnies can attain almost the same speed with 2 low slots and have 3 high slots for more protection or more damage. Also remember that there are more suits than just the protos - which are basically always running at a net isk loss because they're so expensive and still die so easily. The adv slot layouts for both gal and mini are exactly the same (and something I've argued must surely be wrong - gal should be 1 hi 3 lo). Furthermore fitting complex kincats to any scout suit hugely reduces your ability to fit anything else of value to the suit be it weapons, equipment or damage mods/shields.
Lightning Bolt2 DUST University Ivy League 54	Posted - 2013.07.17 00:21:00 - [15] - Quote I support all but the HP buff and gal scout faster than minni bcause of EVE lore. we need - More CPU/PG 1 more equipment slots (possibly 2 at proto)(need to not be as effective as a logi but need to be able to sabotage in the back) fix the hitbox getting bigger as you move Stealth - Finally add cloaking as a scout-only item (by adding a special slot for it) or make the radar useful for finding guys SPEED BUFF - this is the biggest one to me we need to be at least 0.7 mp/s faster than now (both walking and sprint) to actually have a speed adv to rlly use our low slots for more than kin-kats. stamina buff - we need to be able to run longer than a assault hacking tool - this will help fix uplink spam too where you can hack equipment this will be good on pretty much anything but more as a scout. scan radius increase - to make more than visuals helpful for spotting baddies most of this needs added so help scouts actually help on the battlefield.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 55	Posted - 2013.07.18 13:47:00 - [16] - Quote Lightning Bolt2 wrote: I support all but the HP buff and gal scout faster than minni bcause of EVE lore. we need - More CPU/PG 1 more equipment slots (possibly 2 at proto)(need to not be as effective as a logi but need to be able to sabotage in the back) fix the hitbox getting bigger as you move Stealth - Finally add cloaking as a scout-only item (by adding a special slot for it) or make the radar useful for finding guys SPEED BUFF - this is the biggest one to me we need to be at least 0.7 mp/s faster than now (both walking and sprint) to actually have a speed adv to rlly use our low slots for more than kin-kats. stamina buff - we need to be able to run longer than a assault hacking tool - this will help fix uplink spam too where you can hack equipment this will be good on pretty much anything but more as a scout. scan radius increase - to make more than visuals helpful for spotting baddies most of this needs added so help scouts actually help on the battlefield. +1
Aero Yassavi PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 613	Posted - 2013.07.18 13:53:00 - [17] - Quote I said it before and I'll say it 100 more times if I have to: The best way to improve the scout is increasing everyone else's scan radius. With everyone having a 10 meter scan radius, passive scanning is pointless. No one is trying to stealth within 10 meters of someone's back, so whether you are a scout or a sentinel it doesn't really make a difference. If they increase everyone's base scan range substantially, like half your radar substantially, then assaults, logistics, sentinels, and commandos will all be getting spotted by eachother but scouts would not due to their lower profile signature and profile dampening bonus which means they'd actually be able to do something other suits can't: sneak into a base undetected.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3349	Posted - 2013.07.18 14:08:00 - [18] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I said it before and I'll say it 100 more times if I have to: The best way to improve the scout is increasing everyone else's scan radius. With everyone having a 10 meter scan radius, passive scanning is pointless. No one is trying to stealth within 10 meters of someone's back, so whether you are a scout or a sentinel it doesn't really make a difference. If they increase everyone's base scan range substantially, like half your radar substantially, then assaults, logistics, sentinels, and commandos will all be getting spotted by eachother but scouts would not due to their lower profile signature and profile dampening bonus which means they'd actually be able to do something other suits can't: sneak into a base undetected. Another good solution would be NOT to buff other suit's Scan Radius, but to buff Scouts in that regard. Then they can do SEVERAL things other suits can't: Sneak past enemy Scouts, sneak through well-defended positions without detection, AND counter enemy Scouts trying to sneak into your base. This would produce a Scout-vs. Scout element to the metagame where squads would travel with a dedicated Scanner operator (usually Scout, maybe Logi) to reduce the risk of an ambush, and Scouts with their increased scan radius could be fitted to ACTUALLY SCOUT OUT ENEMIES, while other Scouts would be loaded with Dampeners (and probably Cloaks when they show up) to get through enemy lines and try to slip by the Scanners undetected.
Lycuo Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 55	Posted - 2013.07.18 14:16:00 - [19] - Quote To be quite honest as a scout its not your sprint speed you are worried about... Most of the time if i have my stamina up i can get away no problem... its the walking speed that makes no sense to me... we can only out walk most assault characters by .6 m/s so god forbid we run out of stamina (and hopefully the assaulter did too) then itll take a whopping minute to get out of their effective range by then you have already regained ur stamina but not fast enough to get away
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 359	Posted - 2013.07.18 16:52:00 - [20] - Quote Xero The Mishima wrote: Scouts are fine as is. Play them in Chrome than you can cry. -1, good sir. Scouts worked, possibly too well, in Chromosome.

BARDAS DUST University Ivy League 184	Posted - 2013.07.18 16:56:00 - [21] - Quote I'm hoping that 1.3 is updating all the dropsuits and not just the Logi ones. We could use some Dev Lovin' right about now. If you look at the picture in the dev blog it has a Minmatar Heavy so I assume new suits are being added. Perhaps they will take the time to give us a bit of a buff as well. I remain hopeful.
Scheneighnay McBob Tribal Band Dust Mercenaries Immortals of War 2395	Posted - 2013.07.18 17:00:00 - [22] - Quote Xero The Mishima wrote: Scouts are fine as is. Play them in Chrome than you can cry. They were better in chromosome than they are after 1.2
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 359	Posted - 2013.07.18 17:05:00 - [23] - Quote Shattered Mirage wrote: You know that the hit-box increases as you go faster..... right? Ex. Standing 11% Walking 29% Sprinting 57% Jumping 70% I know for a fact that scouts become bigger than heavies while sprinting... Your figures above are simply for illustration, right? You are correct about progressive hit-box expansion, but I've seen no Dev feedback as to the specific numbers. This change hit scouts hard in Uprising 1.2; we've been asking for input/feedback for quite some time. - Shotty GoBang
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 3355	Posted - 2013.07.19 02:58:00 - [24] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: Shattered Mirage wrote: You know that the hit-box increases as you go faster..... right? Ex. Standing 11% Walking 29% Sprinting 57% Jumping 70% I know for a fact that scouts become bigger than heavies while sprinting... Your figures above are simply for illustration, right? You are correct about progressive hit-box expansion, but I've seen no Dev feedback as to the specific numbers. This change hit scouts hard in Uprising 1.2; we've been asking for input/feedback for quite some time. - Shotty GoBang It was before Uprising came out, but the devs have confirmed there is NO hitbox expansion based on movement speed. They also confirmed that this WASN'T a planned feature less than a month before Uprising, and it was tested by players and confirmed NOT to be happening before the first post-Uprising fixes, so if this really is a confirmed fact, it's a recent development and it's an unannounced change.


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